bigbovine

"Foxes in Soxes" was one. As I think of the others (If I can remember them we had 2 more) I will post them. My favorite thing we did though was when I brought a Fox Tail to our second weekend (Ours went over 2 weekends spread a month apart). I attached it to my backside and hid it till we sang our song, when we sang the part were we were tired of Foxin and we could Fox no more, I jumped out and swung my backside around and shook it. That got the guy with the Buffalo hat charging me across the way. Talking about a laugh. We also used the "Tastes like chicken", but only on the Owls, Eagles, and Bobwhites.

Bye the way thanks, you guys answered my question. I do not know why my misunderstanding of the election. In fact, I was given this information by what I thought was a reputable source. Once again, thanks!

Something! ha ha, seen this in another.

So, new Troop and first time to have any experience with OA outside of Camporee Campfires. Two boys were elegible, so we held Elections. After they cast their ballots, the OA representative takes me to the side to tally the votes and then let me as SM sign some paperwork. As we are doing so, he marks both boys as being Elected. "What gives? I thought only one boy was allowed per year" I asked him. He goes on to explain that more than one can be elected if they each recieve half the votes in the election. I tried to understand this, but just couldn't really get past the fact that I always thought only one per year. So could someone explain this to me. Can you send more than one boy and under what conditions? Also, I was asked if I wanted to be nominated as an adult to help get the OA built in the Troop by his parents. I said I would have to give it some thought. But how does one go about that process also. I asked the boy thinking he was the one to talk to, but he said he knew nothing of the process. They left before I could talk to his parents again.

I must echo what several are doing. First: I am waiting on National. Second: After National's decision I will be going to my CO's next meeting to see what they have to say on the Subject. Third: We will have a Committee meeting to discuss all that is learned and come up with a decision, if any, to give to the Parents. We have already had one leave no matter the decision. We have had several say they will leave depending on the decision. We have had some say they do not care as long as we do not change what we do. I could go on, but you get the idea. I do not necessarily see this as a good thing, but I understand where BSA is coming from. The only thing I have been able to tell these people is this, If you are leaving just because of this, then are you pulling your boys from any other extracurricular activities. All public sports are non discriminatory are they not? The line that is crossed for me to say that I am leaving no matter, is when they try to force me to accept the immorality of others. For some, this "simple" decision by BSA is it.

"Do you know if that was part of the Woodbadge curriculum, or something that was done locally? " Not really sure. The only training I have been to were a service like that was done.

If memory serves correctly, We entered the campfire area Sunday Morning for an "Interfaith Worship Service" They began with a Call to worship talking about a Scout is Reverant toward God and his religious duties. Then there were several Prayers, Hymns, Poems, from different religions, not just Judeo-Christian Faiths. What got me was the mentioning of God as I know him then using his name in different ways that try to connect him to the other religions. As many well know, most of these religions do not see God the same way as I do or even associate or admit the existence of God. It became a PC service. Don't want to offend anyone you know. Short of animal sacrifice in a Satanic way, I have no problem witnessing other Faiths and the way they worship. I see it as educational. I also would not interupt said services just because I do not follow that religion. I would rather have had each religion represent their own service instead of trying to tie things together that do not belong.

Sorry if I came off too harsh, just wanted to be sure I wasn't mistaken or having words twisted. Just want people to understand that I see things a little different, or not. Could be because my 5 children are adopted, or the fact that our family is very active in Foster Care. I deal with newborns to 17 year olds year round. I have been doing this for 20 years. Yes it can be bothersome and a strain at times, but the good that comes from it greatly outweighs that. I see Scouts as an arm of my ministry so to speak. Another avenue to reach young people in need. In the case of Scouts, teaching up and coming Men their rsponsibilities in life. Some of these boys may never get reached in a church setting, which is why I see Scouting in more of a long term sense. Another factor in my thinking is that I expect a lot out of people, but mostly myself. Workaholic? Maybe. Used to hear people say that of my Father. I realize now that it wasn't that he was a Workaholic, but determined and dedicated. When things needed done you did it as best as one could, and saw it through. What I see now in Scouts, some churches in my area, people I work with, etc.. is that people just want to "take care of their own" not realizing that there is more to it than themselves. You have done correctly passing along knowledge assuring those after you have the tools they need to do the job. It is those that cannot wait to get out and help nobody on the way that bother me. Part of that problem is they never took the time to learn what they were doing. They have no knowledge of what they do, they just go with the flow and get done so they can get out. The WEBELOS group my boys were in was like that. Out of the 14 boys in that group, my 3 and 1 other are still active. The rest either never crossed over or they quit when they saw that dad was done with scouts too. "Stop taking logic lessons from some of our fellow posters. Be proud to be a Bovidae who plods towards rational conclusions, instead of a Cervidae who bolts from one thought to another! (Okay, I had to look up the Ungulate/Ruminatia family tree...) " Now thats refreshing. Made me laugh to see somone that gets it. By the way, I aint really big but I do live in a field full of my udderly wonderful friends!

I understand Seattle what you say about being too harsh, I try to limit that to the ones that talk about the day they leave, the day they started. Different than coming to a point that one realizes it is time to move on. Whole different attitude brought to the table. And your other point is what I am talking about. So your boy has moved on, it is time to help somewhere else. Whether that means UC or a committe member of the Troop or Pack or wherever you are needed. Maybe even Cubmaster or Scoutmaster. That doesn't make one a Manscout unless your just doing it for knots or whatever. In fact, I believe a more effective Scoutmaster or Cubmaster would be someone without a boy in the group. More time to dedicate to the group without the fear of ignoring your own son too much. "You'll have to convince me that it makes sense for me to hang around the troop/pack when I no longer have a son involved." What about Grandkids, Cousins Kids, etc... Not to mention if all the kids in your community grow to be fine outstanding citizens wouldn't that benefit you? "If I do a good job, the knowledge that I have will be passed down through scouts and scouters. By lingering, I'd be enabling other dads to NOT step up to the plate." Has anyone wondered that by leaving others with the job because your son is out, the new guys fear being dumped on and just stay out of the way anyhow. (I have been told that was the fear by two incoming Den Leaders) "I've been a Boy Scout. I feel no need to be a Man Scout. It's actually sorta creepy... " Which takes me back to the analogy I am familiar with. If I felt that way about My religion, as soon as my boys are of age, I might as well leave the Church. I am not needed there anymore, my job is done, I don't have a dog in the race, I've been a religious boy (Being a religious man is kinda creepy right?)

Wasn't sure where to put this. I reentered what I put in the other post then added the rest of what I was going to say. Figured it went off topic. "My unit functions this way now. the Troop and Pack meet at the same time and location. The boy scouts are hosts and activity directors at the Pack camp outs, they help at the blue and gold and Pinewood. The 2nd year webelos are invited on 3 campouts or events with the troop. We have 90% join and are still members after their first year with the troop. " We just started a Troop to go with the Pack and pretty much did it to operate much in the same manner. Over the 3 years I have been involved, I have seen some struggles caused by the fact that when kids leave the Pack, parents go with them with little care of what happens when they are gone. One of the things I have done to alleviate that was to become as knowledgeable about Scouting as I can. The next was to encourage others to do the same. Committee meetings are held jointly. Keeps the parents involved with each other. Also, nobody gets left with paperwork that nobody has a clue what to do with. We decided that the two to three campouts a year the Pack has, the Troop will attend also to keep the familiarity with the boys and for teaching opportunities. The current Cubmaster has agreed to stay on an extra year or two till we found someone suitable and willing to take over. After a discussion he realized that the survival of the Troop was directly related to the health of the Pack. As my boys age out, I plan on staying in the system somewhere usefull, that way nobody gets left in the cold when people decide to drop out. At this moment, nobody has a clue who was in the Pack from 6 or 7 years back. If there was at least 2 people from the past 10 years still in the Pack somewhere, do you not think there would be a benifit? I realize there are times you may have someone like that around you would rather not see, but think of the wealth of knowledge. Imagine that with a program where the Pack and Troop have some kind of connection. That could run close to 12 years of experience for one person. Even if people dropped from that program like they currently do in Cubscouts, there would be more experience in there. As I was typing this it made me think of something else. The Typical thought process I have seen in my area is this... 1:Scoutmaster cannot wait till son/sons/original Den ages out so they can get out of the Program because they have had enough/served their time/burned out. 2:Cubmaster cannot wait till son ages out/moves up so they can quit being Cubmaster because they seved their time/was forced into it/ tired of it/ or son is in Troop. 3:Den Leaders cannot wait till son joins Troop so they can get out of Denleader Position. I could keep going, but to keep things short, what is the common theme? Everyone "cannot wait to get out" for whatever reason. I do not understand this mentality. I do understand burnout, but you can alleviatte that through changing of responsibility roles. If one truly believed in any program, they wouldn't just stay around long enough just to see their children through it. They would devote their life to it. I understand their are those with different beliefs/or no belief at all, but I use this as example. If those of us that attend religious service and work with that church in different areas treated this the same way people treat their service in Scouts, the Church would be greatly failing. There are men where I attend that have lived in the same place, attended the same church, helped in the same field of service most of their life. There are men who have moved in and not been around long that have brought in fresh ideas and vitality. there are those that have come and gone. That Church is strong and healthy. Do you think it would be that way if you didn't have these combined? Same ole people all the time and things could become stale/dead. Change of leadership all the time could lead to instability. That is why "Eldership" is made up of the "Elderly". I say that because the history of our Pack proves that. As long as there have been people in charge that had experience of how things ran, it thrived(45 to 50 kids). Whenever those people would leave, having not trained others and leaving no idea of how to run things, it would decline till someone with vision or energy would come along to ressurect the Pack(15 to 20 kids). Makes you wonder if that is really why some beleive BSA is on the decline. I think that having one Unit could alleviate this problem, but I firmly believe the real problem is Dedication. Getting your son through the program for whatever reason is not dedication, it is purely selfish. When you do things for selfish reasons, it works its way through everything you do. People notice in one way or another, whether it's actually seeing it or just getting bad vibes. When someone is truly dedicated to what they are doing, other people notice and want to be right there with them. I firmly believe that if BSA wants to thrive (Not Survive), not only do the Volunteers need to "dedicate" themselves to the "Program", but also those that are paid. Any other issues would just be a blip on the radar as far as membership is concerned. Sorry for Rambling, but my time at the moment is short and I wanted to get these thoughts out there. As I read later I may see something I didn't explain well or went off subject if you guys do not notice and tell me first. I will try to fix that at that moment.

"My unit functions this way now. the Troop and Pack meet at the same time and location. The boy scouts are hosts and activity directors at the Pack camp outs, they help at the blue and gold and Pinewood. The 2nd year webelos are invited on 3 campouts or events with the troop. We have 90% join and are still members after their first year with the troop. " We just started a Troop to go with the Pack and pretty much did it to operate much in the same manner. Over the 3 years I have been involved, I have seen some struggles caused by the fact that when kids leave the Pack, parents go with them with little care of what happens when they are gone. One of the things I have done to alleviate that was to become as knowledgeable about Scouting as I can. The next was to encourage others to do the same. I think it would be a good idea to go to one Unit, but realize it may not work everywhere. Maybe they could make it optional?

"Nope, I belive in change from within. Leaving would be like moving to Canada, then trying to change the policies in the US.. So I am perfectly happy staying as an inside irritant." But you see, I have no problem with change, it happens. If you want it to change, more power to you. If I do not agree, I try to stop it, go along with it, or find another venue. I refuse to be so stubborn as to run off or demonize others to affect change. That is the bullies way of taking care of things. "Does the BSA "openly push the Catholic agenda" by allowing Catholics to join the BSA?" I did not say I had a problem with Gays being allowed, I said if BSA openly pushes the homosexual agenda, that is when I leave. Big difference. Do not put words in my mouth. "So bigbovine, shouldn't you leave your church since the Episcapol Church down the street has homosexual clergymen?.. If not, what would be the problem with your troop not allowing homosexual Scoutleaders, but the troop down the street allowing them.. " If that is the case, I have no problem if BSA allows it. Once again it's the agenda I am against. You see, my faith may be more "Conservative" but I do not push it on others. I may not agree with other Churches down the street, but I do not go and jump up and down trying to get them to change because I do not agree. I Live the way I believe the Bible teaches in a manner that encourges others to want to do the same. At that point they change on their own instead of being pushed. Less likely to return to their old ways also. But that still does not say that it is right, it just means they must come to that realization on their own. We were created to make choices and reap the cosequences of those that are wrong. If they say it is up to each Charter Organization to decide, then that is the way it is. I would then find the Unit that fit my beliefs like we did in the first place. "I'm actually more afraid of avowed Republicans serving as Scoutmasters than gay men. :-)" Does this make one a Republicanaphobe? ""But morality is Black and White. What is wrong is wrong." Won't get too many arguments here but who decides?" The Bible. And if you do not agree, then that is your opinion. When those that dissagree become the majority and change those rules, then the answer will change. At that time I really hope you got your priorities straight.

After reading and thinking and rereading, and after deciding on whether being seen as a "Homophobic, Conservative, Bigoted, Closeminded, etc..." person would be worth any comments I may make,I came to the realization that those professing tolerance seem to be the least tolerant of all. What some seem to not undersand is tolerating doesn't mean acceptance. I understand there are those who have homosexual desires. However, in a biblical sense, it is a sin to act upon them. Just as it is a sin to act on other carnal desires we may have. It takes a real commitment and faith to rise above these desires. Being that, outside of Church, Scouting seemed to be an organization that followed along my beliefs. I understand there are different faiths in BSA, and at Woodbadge experienced a non denominational, multireligious non religious ceremony. That was very different and bothered me at first. Then I realized that there were many different types in the group. Even though I didn't like it, I realized I am not in BSA for it's religious services. But morality is Black and White. What is wrong is wrong. Situational morality, or gray area, is a way to rationalize the wrong someone has done. As long as people do something that is wrong but don't want the guilt associated, they will continue to try to make it seem ok to do it. At some point people draw a line of what they will accept. For some, allowing homosexuals to openly be in Scouts is that point. I know of a few that refuse to stay in scouts based on the religious ceremony they witnessed in Woodbadge. I know some that would join if they would just allow alcohol on outings by adults. There are so many things out there, the question is were does your tolerance and acceptance divide. That is the breaking point. In the end I have this to say. If you do not like the current policy that much, change it in a civil manner or leave BSA. Do not demonize those that disagree. If you do you are more wrong than the ones you call names. I have often thought of how much more fun my boys and I could have if not confined by BSA rules, but we wouldn't have the association with those of like mind in our outdoor activities. I attend my church's services for my soul's well being. If at some point BSA policies interfear with my faith, that will be my que to leave. This is not the only thing that would make me leave, but if BSA openly pushes the homosexual agenda, that is when I leave.

Sorry we crossed in posting SeattlePioneer.

qwazse, that is sort of what I am looking at. shortridge, that is what I am trying to avoid. I could just wait till campfire, but it will be the second weekend in November before our first official Campout. It will be the first of October before we are officially a Troop. Seeing as they are that young, I realize that it will take a few years to develop the Troop. We will be doubling the size in March from WEB2 in the Pack (At least 12 total, and that is a conservative number, already have commitments from that many. It could be as many as 16). I was just wanting to get an idea of what they truly understood Scouts to be. From what I have seen over the last two years, the boys coming from the Pack see Troop as a continuation of the Pack. Last week we met to talk over some details and I explained to the boys that they would be running things, and the adults would basically be there to help facilitate their plans. You talking about excitement, they were bouncing off the walls. When we headed home, my 3 boys were talking about how excited their friends were and that they couldn't wait to get started. That is where the questionaire comes into play. I was thinking I could get a quick snapshot of their knowledge, to help guide them on their way. But if you think that is no big deal at this point in the game, I can go with that. My original plans for the first few months were to basically give the boys a mini IOLS crash coarse. I want them to understand their responsibilities before the next group comes up so they all aren't in limbo. If you have any better ideas, My mind is wide open. Adult Leaderships main goals are First : Boy Led (Non-existant in previous Troop) Second: Community Service (Non-existant in previous Troop) Boys main goals First : A more "Backpacking" approach to camping (This is the big one I have been hearing from the boys, they want their own tents, cooking wares, etc..) Second: Taking Merit Badges they want, not what is given to them (Something they didn't get in previous Troop) That may be plenty to go on to begin with anyways. Thanks for any more input. Ask if you need more information about the Troop makeup.