Sentinel947

SSF: one needs to only walk on a college campus during class change to see how prevalent smoking still is.

I came back from NYLT and had huge cognitive dissonance from what I learned there and how my Troop actually functioned. But at the age of 16 I wasn't willing to upset the apple cart and wouldn't challenge the adults in that way. Looking back on things over 5 years later, I realized that NYLT is only useful if the adults are trained and are willing to let the Scouts lead. I need a star wars line.... uh.... May the Patrol Method be with you!

JBlake, I find your faith in me not disturbing. =P

BD, It's a shame your influence bar is full and I can't like your post more then once because I totally would. I'll do my best to expand on what you said. Eagle exists because it's a journey Scouts will strive for. The JOURNEY TO EAGLE is what matters, not the actual Eagle award. The experiences and quality of program the Scout gets makes the young man, not a badge or a medal. Earning Eagle is the means to an end, and far too many parents and Scouters don't realize this and ROB THEIR SCOUTS of the real point of Scouting in the process. Sentinel947

An update for those who are interested, if somebody doesn't know the back story, I can explain in greater detail. Basically, I've been with this troop for 10 years as either an adult or a Scout. Realized when I became an ASM three years ago that our Troop doesn't do things as well as I thought they did. The search for information is what led me to Scouter.com. Out of everything, I picked the Patrol Method as the ultimate thing that was worth fighting for. Yesterday at the Troop Meeting the Scoutmaster of the Troop agreed to getting the boys to a patrol method Troop. I've got the other Assistant Scoutmasters on board and the CC. The challenge is that very few of the other Adult volunteers have the training or experience to let the boys run the Patrol Method. So much of the training and mentoring of the Scouts is going to fall onto me. (Which since it's my big idea, I'd expect it to.) So my plan of action is really simple. The decisions that need to be made I believe can be solved by our current patrol leaders council. Our (A)SPL's are NYLT trained. All they've ever been waiting for is adults to let them do what they've been trained for. I need to educate the other Scoutmasters and Parents about the patrol method, and why its valuable. I have really high hopes, and I wanted to update everybody and thank tons of members here for the help and guidance they've given me the past two years. Yours in Scouting, Sentinel947

It's been quite a while! How are you?

KDD I love the onion!

It's a tough call. If it was your own unit, I'd absolutely say something. If it's somebody else's unit, I'm really hesitant to be the BSA regulation police on somebody else's unit. Personally if I was in your situation, I would have left it alone. Not my unit and I could call somebody at the Council, but I couldn't prove it if I wanted to. Maybe I'd say something to their Scoutmaster if I knew him.

Whoa there. BD and I are talking theory more than anything else here. I think it's a good conversation to have and it apparently happens in other troops. So it's worth talking about so other Scoutmasters can learn from it. That's what we are all here for right?

So when they go to the SPL, what does the SPL do about it? In my ten years of Scouting, believe it or not no patrol has ever forgot to bring food. Sure they forgot to buy a piece of a meal, Pasta with no Pasta sauce kinda thing, but never forgotten a whole weekend worth of food.

I agree with you BD, but I've got a couple questions. 1.If you kids go hungry the whole weekend, does that hurt their enthusiasm for the program? Would a weekend with no food or little food make the scouts be like "Screw this Scouting stuff?" 2. How does the wrath of angry pack of parents not come down on your head? I'll admit I'm not as bold a man as you. I don't blame a Scoutmasters for bailing his Scouts out if it means not having to deal with parental rage. I agree with you in principle (the Scouts ought to be responsible and we shouldn't save them from themselves in situations where they aren't in danger. If you could expand on how you deal with the situation, that would be really helpful and I'd appreciate it.

Calico and DC hit the nail on the head I think. Couldn't say it better.

Attack what I actually say, not what you think I'm implying. I didn't imply anything about anybody's "Fitness to lead a troop." If I've got something to say, believe me, I'll say it. Kudos to beating up an argument I didn't make. I hope your gloves didn't get too dirty when you dropped them on the ground. =P The thing is not that we perfectly measure up to the Oath and Law every time, because we won't, and our Scouts won't either. It's an impossible standard, it's also a subjective standard and it's ok to not measure up every second of our lives, because that's not possible either. We ought to strive to live the Oath and Law to the best of our understanding, knowing that others have their own interpretations of things. The BSA is vague about what everything means for a reason. I don't think the Race T Shirt is against the Oath and Law. Maybe a little crude, but I'm all in favor of some innuendo for a good cause. If it was going on some sort of Troop clothing, then I'd think it'd cross a line somewhere. Your statement about not mixing private life and Scouting is far too black and white, in my opinion (That means we are obviously free to disagree.) I do not agree with your statement. It's not a question of whether or not other Scouters or even ourselves break the Oath and Law from time to time, because we are all human and we will make mistakes, and that's part of life. Doing my best to not be condescending, nor to put words in your mouth, let me give you a scenario BD: (I find out that a Scout of mine was caught shoplifting. Do I: A) Counsel him about his choice, it's clearly not Trustworthy. I can help this Scout make better decisions in the Future. B) Our Private lives and Scouting lives are separate, therefore, I'll do nothing. I'd choose A. Does it make me a bit of a hypocrite? You bet! I haven't been 100% trustworthy my whole life. Somebody call National and get this Volunteer removed! =P. But I can help this hypothetical Scout develop his own morals and values. I think that's really important. If Scouting is not meant to help us make ethical and moral decisions in the future, then we are in an over complicated camping club. I love camping clubs, but if I had to pick a pure camping club, I'd camp with my college age peers, not 12 year olds and their parents. I don't object to what you do, you drink and smoke privately. (Your back porch is your private property.) You go to a really cheesy eating establishment with your friends. Those aren't immoral decisions in my opinion, but for some people, that might not make you the most appropriate role model for their kids. That's up to them to decide if they've got a problem with it and how to address that. I object to the wider philosophical point your statement implies. It lacks nuance. I think you oversimplified your broader thoughts for the sake of time but I'll let you explain your thoughts without putting words in your mouth. Sentinel947

Welcome back BD. Glad to hear you and your troop are doing well!

Fred: I don't get how organizers of big events don't understand that they gotta include everybody. It's a basic lack of empathy. Either arrange for the major groups to have their own services, or have a very relaxed , open, committed, interfaith prayer service. I wouldn't want to be forced to go to a sectarian service that isn't my religion, but some organizers think it's ok.....

I watched the thread go off the rails, and I wasn't sure how to intervene in a way that wouldn't get an angry mob calling for my head as the censorship czar of Scouter.com.

We should all be careful to not project our feelings on the typed words of others. Karen: your Den Leader should have tried to get everybody's opinion. That being said he/she shouldn't have an issue explaining what the 40$ is for. Maybe you know a way to get the materials cheaper? That'd be a great way to help the DL out. Best of luck finding a solution, and welcome to the forum! Sentinel947

You can ignore churches if you'd like, just as people are free to go to Church if they please. It's a wonderful thing about America. My point was simply to investigate your claims. That's all. As for the actual topic, I don't think this is solving any issues with the program, and I'm not sure what issues national expects it to solve. I'm an ASM in a very religiously diverse Troop, and as a pretty solid minority in the Troop (Maybe 8 Catholics in the troop of 90 Scouts and Adults.) I don't expect how we deal with duty to God to change. "How have you been living duty to God?" "yes ........" "Good Stuff next question." Yours, Sentinel947

Neither point supports your initial point that I'm disputing "Da Vinci had to hide his works from the Church" he was charged with sodomy but the Wikipedia article makes no reference to who brought the charges. Deists.com claims Da Vinci was not a Catholic, while the Wikipedia article claims he was given the Catholic sacraments of confession and Last Rites before he died. I'm not looking to start any arguments over the subject, I'd never heard that Da Vinci hid things from the church outside of a Dan Brown novel.