Sentinel947

I'm done talking with straw. You can argue with yourself, convinced of your intellectual superiority.

If the BSA is survive, it also needs to look towards the future, not just the present. There was no clear direction forward. Current leaders were opposed to changing the policy, millennials, people who have young children or will be soon, were opposed to the policy. BSA must have been weighing the effect of recruitment of new cubs who have millennial parents.

I'd say in general, a Patrol, PL or SPL trying to overhaul SOP's and experiment is part of the leadership and growth of the program. On the flip side, the goal of the program is not to develop leadership in adults. It can happen, (I'm an example of it,) but on the whole Scoutmasters and CCs need to have a good start on how to do their jobs properly from whoever held the role before them.

Rumors of that down in rural parts of Ohio and Kentucky too. I think it probably goes on in any state that has the climate for it.

I agree with your observations. Leaders genuinely think their Troop is doing well and that they are doing well. Especially if it's a long standing troop and they are adhering to standard operating procedures. However, as we know, SOP's reflect the people who make them, and if the folks in the past who made the SOP's didn't know what they were doing...... I know Scoutmaster Specifics gets a bad rap on the forum here but taking Scoutmaster specifics training as a fresh 18 year old ASM made me get off my high horse and realize two fundamental truths: 1. I didn't know everything about Scouting just because I am/was an (Eagle) Scout. 2. My troop was definitely far off from the goals of the BSA, and Scouting as a tradition. Weak leadership development, weak patrol method, advancement heavy troop. It was that wake up call that got me to search for resources like Ask Andy, Scoutmastercg, and motivated me to join this forum too. Sentinel947

I've seen Boy Scout and Cub Scout billboards in Cincinnati.

Never. I even went backpacking in December this year thanks to the above average warmth.

Rehashing for some folks. I became an ASM after 7 years in my Troop as a Scout. I had 3 Scoutmasters. One was a great Scoutmaster who'd been at it for almost a decade. He knew Scouting, and our troop was a pretty good troop where the Scouts were responsible to lead, and the scoutmaster encouraged that type of environment. He stepped down a year or two after I joined. CC came on to be SM. New guy didn't know what he was doing, and wasn't properly prepared for the role. Without the patient guidance of the old SM, the Scouts leadership of the troop became sketchy. In a panic, the new SM took on a much more aggressive leadership posture, taking away a lot of the patrol method elements with it. It was about this time that I became SPL. I was a control freak at 16 years old, and we butted heads a lot. Shortly before I turned 18, the current scoutmaster took over. He was also not ready, but this time, I was ready to help him. Though the BSA training, and the mentorship of people like Eagledad, Stosh, Beavah, OGE, and plenty of others here, my Troop has taken some large steps towards becoming a better experience for the Scouts involved in the Troop. In short, I believe most SM's and parents would run a troop the right way (buzzword alert) with the patrol method, youth leadership and youth decision making central to their programs. However, they don't know what they don't know. The challenge for experienced Scouters( Do I count in that category yet?) is to pass on what they/we have learned to others. Sentinel947

I'm looking forward to this book as well. I've always thought highly of Mr. Gates.

I think the number of Eagle mills is vastly overestimated. I never start with that assumption. Moreso, I assume the Troop struggles with the concepts of youth leadership and the proper role of adults in that structure. Observe the a meeting or two. Does the Troop conduct MB's during the meeting? What do the adults do during the meeting? Where are the older Scouts? I don't think the BSA's issues are as much about crazy helicopter parents (although I definitely know a few) but rather, most adults volunteers don't know much about how to play the game of Scouting. Unless a troop has a strong boy led culture where the scoutmaster offers his advice from the sidelines and pushes decision making authority to the scouts it's easy for Troops to latch on to advancement because it's familiar like cub scouts and very safe.

I've had one spiral bound handbook since I was a scout in 2005. Never ziplocked it. Just got insanely lucky that it wasn't trashed.

Stosh. Pounds... Like the British currency. Not lbs.

Agreed with Fred. Nothing I did as a youth could prepare me to be a UC. Young adults, recently aged Eagles can best provide service as unit level ASMs or OA advisors. We're still learning to be an adult. Even now at 22 I still have no exposure to rechartering, or any of the administrative aspects of running a BSA troop. I'm a program side guy, I leave the admin and the politics to those who have the experience to be good at it.

I got asked to be a UC. I sidestepped that job. I've only been an adult for 4 years. To dive cold into another units traditions, politics, finances and troubles sounded like hell on earth. Then multiply it by 3. No thanks.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Alamo-Heights-High-School-student-was-a-victim-of-6743320.php Had a mix of reactions to this one. First picture was a kid in a fishing boat. In my mind I was already thinking.. "I bet this guy was a Boy Scout." Really terrible story there. Is there anything we can do as Scout leaders to prevent tragedies like this one? Sentinel947

Walk away. You can't fix this situation. I encourage you and your son to look for a new troop. Your son should encourage his friends to switch too. The only way the"leaders" like this CC and ASM will get the message about their behavior is if people refuse to bow down to them and their toxic behavior. The sad part is older scouts who were excited for what Renax would bring to the table will know exactly what went down. If that move was pulled on me, I'd walk out and never go back. Seattlepioneer is right to mention training. These fools clearly do not understand the program, or they wouldn't want to have a troop where the scouts are coddled.This is counterproductive to our goal to create young men of character.

My Troop uses Troopmaster. What questions do you have about specific programs? What issues do you have with Troopmaster that is prompting you to look at other options.

I know if my unit did that, it would be the end of my involvement with them, as I'm not a church member and I'm not a member of that denomination at all.

I actually dug my own cathole at Philmont a few times. Learned how to do it in ROTC. Was much better than the outhouses with somebody else's feces on the seat.

I know the feeling. My University had the nerve to send me an email about donating money to them on Giving Tuesday... They already have plenty of my parents and my money. Then they build giant expensive new press boxes for the football stadium, then have the nerve to come ask me for more of my money. ​ ​

In Krampus's defense, those latrines are in worse shape than many of the latrines I used at Philmont.....

This is a good thing. The BSA needs to get out of the culture wars.

@@Krampus I don't handle OA adult ​nominations. I'm not the Scoutmaster or the Committee chair. I "do my job" and that is not part of my job. I think we have to agree that our units are different. In my unit, the good scouts, the active ones, the ones who are developing as leaders, get elected. The big boss types that mommy and daddy think are gods gift to the Troop? The other boys see right through them. As for my own involvement/lack of. I'd like to be. When I was a Scout, my Troop as a whole just didn't participate much in the OA. Like other posters have noted, nobody really effectively made the case for why we should be involved in OA events. Now as an Adult leader I see the benefits the OA brings to Scouts in my Council. As an adult, the only benefit is to be surrounded by Adults who are as crazy about this scouting stuff as I am. I might have a role to play in mentoring youth leaders in the OA, but since I'm not active, that's not possible. As a youth member, I mi​ssed out on another opportunity to do cool scouting events. Our lodge is big and active. Some of my best friends I've made from working on Camp Staff were big in the OA. I would have met those people years ago if I had been active in the OA as a youth member. My own involvement isn't possible, (they meet on Tuesday nights, I take Tuesday night classes in college.) Weekend events are hard to make when the Troop schedules events the same weekend. Trying to make my Troop remember how to use the patrol method after ditching it 5 years ago is also a gigantic time/energy suck. ​​When you upset the way things have been run, and offer an alternative, I had to be willing to put my time and energy where I was running my mouth.......=P. The OA has a chance to be something special if the adults and youth in it want it to be. Or it can be a waste of time. Similarly the Boy Scout program that is all about collecting Merit Badges and going on carefully adult planned events is a gigantic waste of the potential of this program. Yours in Scouting, Sentinel947 ​

I'll be the countrary voice here, because unfortunately that seems to be my perspective on this forum..... Like most things in Scouting, all Scouting is local. Your mileage varys, your professional staff, your camp, your OA lodge, your training events, your camporees. They all vary in quality year to year and from council to council. In my Council, our OA lodge is very active. They do a good deal of service for the council camp. I think it's no accident that a large number of OA members also staff NYLT or Summer Camp. When I was elected into the OA, I thought the Ordeal was tough but fair. I can't honestly remember much about it other than doing service work and the ceremonies. Overall, I'm happy with the OA in my council. They're far from perfect, but I think if we assess our own units in the BSA, we'd realize we're all in a place that's far from perfect. Generally speaking, OA elections are a "popularity contest", but I trust the Boys to elect the folks who are actually leaders and good young men. I don't have the crud in my eyes of watching my perfect snowflake fail to get elected year after year. I have no experience with the process of Adults becoming OA members. It's not something I've dealt with, since I don't handle that kind of nonsense in my unit. ​ I haven't been as involved with the OA as I would like to be. ​That's to say, I wasn't involved much after being an Elangomat and getting my Brotherhood. I'm not a big proponent of the whole "today sucks, the past was so much better" worldview. Perhaps it was because I wasn't alive in the glory days and just don't know what I missed out on.... In any case, to the original poster, the OA is another opportunity for your son and yourself( if you want to) ​​to be involved with Scouting a bit more on the council level. It wasn't something I was interested in, and I've spent my youth and adult Scouting on the unit level almost exclusively. I've had some friends who got a lot more out of the OA than they ever did out of the Unit. Best of luck, and if yo​​ur son joins the OA, you aren't obligated to become an OA member, that's a pretty silly troop tradition in my opinion. Sentinel947

I hope those units can find new charter partners. My Archdiocese is very supportive of Scouting, and nearly every parish around where I live has a Troop.