Sentinel947

We have the invitation out there, I don't know of an SPL that attends. I didnt when I was an SPL. Heck, I don't attend the TC meetings as an ASM. There's no point.

I stressed the importance of continuing to learn. One is not prepared to be a Scoutmaster or ASM after a 4 hour class. @@blw2 I was not teaching your class. I was in Florida. =P I will say "it depends on your unit" did cross my lips several times. That's not to imply that the Patrol Method or Youth leadership are optional... they are not.. However..... those concepts are not a light switch. It's a continuum of progress. For some troops, they aren't even on the path yet. I can attest it can takes time, and it's little steps forward. Not to bring that subject up here, it's more than beaten on in other threads. My course had 7 folks in it. Ranging from Troops of 5 boys to a troop of 30ish. So I had to break down the mental barrier for myself that what works well for a Troop of 75 scouts like mine, may not work in a small troop. Some of the leaders were LDS, and I will remember to ask at the beginning of the class next time. While the principles are the same, they have their own structure and rules, and I think I confused them a bit. Overall, I beat the drum on the patrol method, and definitely made it a point to let the Scouts lead as much as possible. That the process is chaotic, and that's ok.

So fill us in. What should be corrected? I'm not a bear expert.

In that case, I'd highly recommend carrying it.

Does Philmont allow you to carry bear spray? I didn't bring any in two Philmont treks.

Course went well. I had fun. Feedback was positive.

@@Stosh by your definition I suppose I have never led anything in my life, only managed it. I suppose I can live with that.

@@Stosh. In the case of my unit. Moving towards the Patrol method. I had to persuade the Scouts, and the other adults. I had a vision of what the Troop should be like. There was no clamor of change from the Scouts. But I knew it was the right direction, and while there was skepticism from those above and below me on the organizational chart. I continued to make the case. As a 20 year old ASM at the time, the only power I had was the power to to persuade. @@Eagledad, I agree some people have higher emotional intelligence than others, and that makes them more effective at persuasion. There are a lot more traits and skills a leader must have besides the ability to persuade others. Also, I didn't mention servant leadership in my post. I'm not sure if I'd agree that it's a leadership style. It's more of a mindset. A set of parameters that a leader judges their decisions against. A leadership style is more personality based. At least from my understanding, but it's been a couple of years since I took the leadership psychology classes in college. All: I think authority and influence flow from a variety of sources. It's a little too simplistic to say it flows top down, or bottom up, because these things depend on the situation. Leaders can have tons of authority, and no influence, and be utterly ineffective because nobody will follow them. Leaders can have very little authority, and very strong influence, and still be constrained by the system they are operating in. (the thing they want to do is not allowed.) Just my rambling thoughts. Sentinel947

It's also an interesting leadership style because it's very flexible. It doesn't mean you are a weak leader or a pushover. That's the common complaint I've heard about it. People who follow orders or instructions because they feel valued, trust their leaders, and have a stake in the organization is very is true power. Better yet, it's a power that comes without having to push around or intimidate others. People who only do what is required to avoid punishment is a very weak form of leadership. If people can escape that kind of leadership, they generally will. Scouting is definitely an organization where the boys (or volunteer adults) can escape authoritarian leadership by voting with their feet.

It was cherry flavored. Haha. It's something I'd experienced as a Scout, and as a Cadet. It's a pretty hard concept for people to understand. It seems like another silly contradiction, but it's really not.

I gave this SM minute a few months ago, forgot to post it here. "I hear pretty frequently. "They don't listen to me." Getting people to follow you is pretty hard. So I'm going to share with you my secret. It's a secret that is shared in almost every major world religion, and the best CEO's, sports coaches and other leaders know this secret too. What is it? It's servant leadership. If you take care of your people, they will take care of you. If you give them what they need to be their best, they will trust you. When they trust you, they will follow you. Before you step in front of your team to lead, ask yourself, "Do I serve them? Or do they serve me?""

I think the whole boy-led verbiage is a distraction too. If a Troop is really running the Patrol method properly, they are a boy-led unit. To do anything else is utilizing patrols, but not the Patrol Method. I don't believe in leaders being "born" Leadership is a mindset, and that mindset and the skills that go with it can be taught. That's one of my favorite SM's minutes I've given. "Do you serve others, or do others serve you?"

Bobwhite Blather is great as well.

@@Krampus is on it this AM.

You say that, but if the systems are not perfect, they will fail. (And the systems are never perfect.)

What Ken said. Sometimes it's the full one from the TPR manual. Sometimes its abbreviated.

So... I'm teaching SM Specific Training this weekend. The Syllabus is ok, but could use some personal insider info. I'm developing my own course with the syllabus as a guide, because reading from the syllabus and lecturing is lame. I'm turning to the smartest, most experience group of Scouters I know, and that means YOU!! ​So: What's one thing you wish you knew before you became a Scoutmaster or ASM? What's advice do you have for a new SM or ASM? Anything else @@TAHAWK, what do you think should be added to the syllabus? What is it missing? Thanks for your thoughts, criticisms, tidbits and advice: Sentinel947

We do ceremonies for PL's starting a new term. COH: Ranks. Opening and closing of meetings! =P (Sorry, low hanging, obvious...) Flag Retirements Crossovers ECOH- We recognize them at a Troop COH. They can have their own separate one if they'd like to plan it. Most do.

I think that's a really compelling way of doing things.

That's awesome about the coffee. I nearly choked on my water while reading that. . I'm inclined to agree with you. I think 2 and 4 are the better options. My Troop uses #2. It works well for us. Ya'll use #4 There are obviously some pros and cons to both. The important thing is that we've found a way to implement the patrol method that works. I will grant you that #4 has less moving parts than #2 which is highly reliant on Troop Guides to be effective and well trained. Sentinel947

I think another aspect of this training is to control the jargon. Thanks to @@Stosh , @@Eagledad and @@Krampus, I've realized that we are often talking past each other when we talk about things like New Scout Patrol, or Mixed age versus Same Age patrols. We all agree on the Patrol method, but it's the messy details that things become very confusing, even for a quartet of experienced Scouters. If we're having such a messy time with this, what does that mean for new leaders? Unless the BSA defines very specific definitions for terms like those. (which they won't) Any trainer or commentator here has to be very specific about what those terms mean. Sentinel947

That reminds me to clarify that. Thanks for your insight. You have a smaller troop than I do, but what you're doing seems to be working well for you. Thanks to @@KenD500 I added a post to my original post. But I'll copy it here. "The Scouts stay in this system until the end of the year. When the Troop goes to do elections for the following January-May term the NSP is no longer the NSP. They can stay together, they can split up. Some can stay, some can go to other patrols. The Adults nor the SPL sets the rules for how that transition happens."

Sorry I think my message was confusing. I did not mean to imply that adults should lead patrols. I was asking a rhetorical question, and thanks to my sloppy writing, it didn't work. Let me try again: Here's my thinking. Here's my scenarios. 1. You have a troop that puts new scouts into patrols together. Maybe, they have a Troop guide, or they elect a patrol leader. The ASM meddles with the patrol, often taking over for the TG or PL to lead the patrol. (We know this is wrong.) 2. You have a troop that puts new scouts into patrols together. A troop guide teaches the scouts skills they'll need to be boy scouts, and the patrol elects a patrol leader. The troop guide coaches the new PL who's new to being a PL. The ASM observes, (And that doesn't mean 100% of the time), and only intervenes in the case of health and safety, and coaches the TG and PL when they ask for help and when it's appropriate. (Is there something wrong with that? Isn't this an effective patrol method?) 3. You have troop that seeds new scouts into existing patrols. The ASM meddles with the patrol, often taking over for the patrol leader. (I think we all agree this is wrong.) But this is a regular patrol. They aren't using an NSP here. But it's still not meeting our goals for the patrol method. 4. You have a troop that seeds new scouts into existing patrols. the PL leads. The new boys learn from the older ones. The ASM observes (And that doesn't mean 100% of the time), only intervening in the case of health or safety, and coaches the PL if they ask for help and when it's appropriate. @@Krampus . What are your thoughts. Which of those scenarios are o.k usages of the patrol method? I think we will agree. Sentinel947

@Stosh That's exactly what I'm looking for in this thread. It gives me a really clear idea of why you do what you do. I give you a ton of respect for pushing forward in a situation like that. I don't know if I would.

I agree. But can't an adult run any patrol? NSP or not? That's more of an issue with adults not understanding the patrol method, rather than NSP's specifically.