Sentinel947

Something like that is just too high scope. You gotta crawl before you can walk. Walk before run. If your youth leadership is just being introduced to the patrol method, just starting the transition from participating in a program the adults run, to one they plan and lead, something like what I described above isn't worth it, when the basics aren't being done. @@blw2 have you been listening to Clarke Green's last three podcasts?

It's never a perfect product. Had a email cross my inbox from the Camping Coordinator. Rehashed the new system and deadlines for signing up for outings, when food will be bought, when scouts will be paid. It also emphasizes that the parents should take the scout out to buy food, and that the Scout should be making the buying decisions, not mom or dad. Definitely a wonderfully and properly crafted system...... However, it's something that should have been pushed through the PLC first. Camping Chair should have gone to the SPL and said "I'm having these problems, can you talk about it in the PLC and see what solutions ya'll have?" Instead, it's dictated.. Oh well.. Continuous improvement, and that's not a hill I'm willing to die all over.

As usual we agree. It's a shame that service is not given for the sake of service. Unfortunately, without a defined standard, some will do what they should do, and others will do basically nothing. @@Krampus, thanks for hunting down the various links, that's a labor of love sometimes.

I'm not sure I see the legalese, other than mine... It's pretty straightforward, the hour requirement is clearly stated, approved by the Scoutmaster. It's up to the SM to develop what he finds acceptable, and be consistent to that standard. Isn't that something we ask the BSA for as leaders? Let us use our common sense on things?

Be aware, this is not an official BSA resource, your mileage may vary, we try to give you our best advice, but it may not be the authoritative answer you are looking for. I'm not 100% clear, but if you are describing a neighborhood, then I don't see the problem. I'd count service to the neighborhood. If you are talking about property owned by the Scout, his family, or somebody else involved with the Troop, I'd say no. The requirements as stated: Second Class: Participate in an approved (miniumuim of 1 hour) service project. Star Scout Requirement #4: While a First Class Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster. Life Scout Requirement #4: While a Star Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster. ​If I was a Scoutmaster, I would approve a service project that takes place in private property provided it doesn't benefit the Scout, or the Scouts family, or somebody else in the Troop. Clean the yard next door for the old elderly widow? Sure why not? That's my opinion. In this situation, that's all I can offer you. Approving the service project is up to the individual Scoutmaster, so you are going to get a variety of answers. The requirement does not explicitly state what counts as a (Non-Eagle) service project. (The BSA doesn't in the guide to advancement) Hope that helps, ​Sentinel947 ​

There isn't a moderators orientation course. I didn't realize they were an option.... ​In addition, the moderator User Interface doesn't make it easy to assign points. It's not as simple as the upvote/downvote system.

He should make an account, so we can benefit from his experiences as well. Your Troop seems well run.

You've got to be kidding. Mom is complaining that he won't be able to earn his 9th palm, when he's on his first palm??? I think this is actually an excellent opportunity for the CC and SM to sit down with Momma Bear and explain the importance of a young adult setting their own goals, because this sounds like momma's goal, not Scout-Son.

I don't envy you. Mom is being ridiculous, but she doesn't seem like the kind of parent you are going to want to reason with.

In that we agree. We do a disservice to our scouts if we teach them to manage processes and call it leadership. Both management skills and leadership is important for our Scouts to learn in their POR's and Patrols.

I tend to keep my politics/religion away from the Scouts. I'm happy to chat about it with adults, but I don't need youth parroting my opinions and having their parents flip out. On the other hand, I do agree that if somebody else starts it, I think that's a great opportunity to encourage older Scouts to participate. If we make politics completely taboo around youth, then we will continue to have generations of politically apathetic youth.

I don't agree with the prevailing view that management is a derogatory term. The world needs competent managers, and even more, managers who also lead with people at the center of what they do. A definition of management is: "Management includes planning, organizing, staffing, leading or directing, and controlling an organization to accomplish the goal or target." It's about processes and structure. Goals Leadership is about people. It doesn't automatically mean one cannot be a leader, or cannot be a servant leader just because they are a manager in some or many aspects. IMO, Training my youth leadership to be effective managers and good leaders is a goal of mine in this program, even if it's not explicitly stated in the Mission or the Aims. If a Scout wants to be a effective patrol leader, they need to pick up on some basic principles of management and leadership. Some people learn these lessons intuitively in life, and most don't. TL:DR One can be a good manager and a leader. One can be a servant leader and still be a manager. If we continue to define management as a cutthroat results at all costs attitude, then that's all it will ever be. Not attempting to be a contrarian, and I know it's not popular to defend management. I guess it's what happens when you work in HR.

It's not even effective management... A managers goal is to accomplish a task as efficiently as possible. Angry subordinates will not be efficient. They will rebel, and the task will not get done. Miserable subordinates will quit if they can. In volunteer organizations, they simply disappear. In employment, they slack off and look for new jobs, then drop their two week notice out of nowhere, (or if their manager really sucks, they'll just leave.)

That's an issue when scouts are TG/PLs for younger guys. One of the job responsibilities of the SM is to train youth leaders. That may be directly though coaching, it may be indirect through Troop Instructors, SPL's or NYLT.

I didn't earn any palms. I did then, and still do, feel like they are make work. I guess some scouts who earn Eagle early might still be motivated by advancement, but most Eagles earn the award 16+. Advancement isn't as big a motivation as fun and leadership challenge. Not all good things in life are for a grade, or have a award at the end.

Scoutmaster screwed up. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/eaglepalm.aspx Easy fix though. UGGGGHHHH!!!!

Language is inappropriate, but not inherently political. Will leave here and make a note in the original post. It seems like a fantastic movie. I was disappointed when the trailer ended.

Got me! Lol

Fixed that.. check your PMs.

I don't think this is limited to I&P

@SSScout: Most religions that pay their leaders do so because the responsibilities involved make it impossible for them to pursue any other form of productive work. Forgive my rudeness, but are you a Quaker? All: Part of a Scout being reverent is to respect the beliefs and practices of others, even if you personally don't like them. In light of a forum member leaving over uncharitable comments about religion, I think we all should be more mindful of what we're saying in respect to other people's beliefs and practices (or lack of.) Sentinel947

Let them roll with the experiment. And like I'm sure you do already, chat with your scouts (especially those on the PLC) going forward. Without leading them away from their current plan, see how they think it's going. Eventually if you hear enough of them expressing that it's not working, it's a chance for your PLC to reevaluate their system. For example, when my troop moved away from creating patrols by lining up scouts and assigning numbers (One of my good friends was SPL at the time, and I still give him crap about that decision), we went back to letting the scouts pick their own patrols. A group of 12 and 13 year olds decided they wanted to have 14 scouts in a patrol. The SPL came to the Scoutmaster and I and asked what he should do. Eventually through our questions the SPL decided to let them give it a try. Sure enough, after the campout that month, they decided to split into two patrols, it was too hard to operate. Even though one could argue with the approach, we felt like the patrol of 14 was within the boundaries of the game. We knew it was sub optimal, but the Scouts had been told that and still wanted to try it. They did, they found out why you don't normally see patrols of 14, and they adjusted. I'm very proud of that, because it would have been easy for the adults or the SPL to stop that, but the Scouts got to try something new, they learned a lesson from it, and it was their decision.

That was my experience as a Scout. 2005-2011. So it's not everywhere. I was an athlete and in the band and regularly came to meetings from practice. Even then, there were (and are) Scouts in my troop who never wear the full uniform. A vast majority of the kids do. We let them wear knock of/close enough items (pants and socks) that are more wallet friendly. What kills me are the wanna be frat boys that wear khaki pants that are salmon colored with docksider style shoes with the uniform. The uniform already isn't one of the prettiest around, blue jeans makes it worse, but salmon colored khakis is the even more ugly. At least it's not gym shorts... To address the OP: Insist on the uniform. Your adults need to model it properly and consistently. Be firm, but don't add to the requirements. Can't deny scouts advancement based on whether they do or do not wear the complete uniform. My troop tries to blunt the blow by having a used scouting clothes swap and we also allow cheaper knock of items. Uniform is expensive. Some families can't afford it.

So the general consensus I'm seeing is 1. Keep I&P 2. Moderators should step in and remove personal below the belt shots. (Strong disagreement is fine, but direct insults or character smears are not) 3. Self policing by members (because the mods aren't always present) 4. Taking serious disagreements/hurt feelings to PM's. Am I misinterpreting that?

qwazse's post says basically what I was going to say.