Sentinel947

They also didn't have flush toilets, electricity, air conditioning, cars, or cell phones either. Given the chance, I bet you they would upgrade to modern gear. They did the best with what they had at the time. Doesn't mean I'm going to do things how they did it.

Figure out what gear you will need for the course. Then think about what gear you will use backpacking. Buy a pack that fits that. I own 3 packs. A 58 liter Osprey Exos. I own a Dueter 65 ACT lite that Ill be selling to a friend. Then I own a Kelty Red Cloud 5,400. But seriously. Gear first. Get the lightest, smallest gear you can afford. Sometimes you can improvise with things around your house. Then get the pack. If possible, borrow a friends pack for OLS. Don't rush into pack buying decisions. A pack can be a big financial sink hole, if you find out on a 5 day backpacking trip that it rubs you funny, or hurts your back is a sad time. I recommend internal frame packs. They are more comfortable in my opinion. Externals are harder find nowadays, because they are mostly outclassed by internal packs. You can probably find externals online for fairly cheap if you want to go that route. I do not recommend military gear. It's durable sure, but it's heavier than it's civilian equivalent. Scouts don't tend to go off established trails, LNT frowns on bushwhacking through the forest. Therefore the durability of a military bag is simply overkill and adds unnecessary weight. Danbrew makes a good point. Most troops nowadays do park and plop style camping. Backpacking with Scouts is the activity that can engage and keep older scouts. I highly recommend your Troop start a backpacking program if your troop doesn't backpack currently. It's a great way to keep older scouts involved, encourage youth leadership, introduce your scouts to a hobby that lasts a lifetime, and they can even earn a merit badge for it. Sentinel947

Stosh, I respectfully disagree. The Trained Patch is the bare minimum. Often times, many folks who have earned the Trained Patch are still learning, still have a lot of learning to go. While I'm not a huge fan of UoS, I think continuing education for Scouters beyond the required training is important.

Thanks Richard!

Fair enough.

Another option is if your troop doesn't do alot of backpacking is to become a Backpacking MBC. http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Backpacking Some of the requirements require the scouts to plan and execute their trips......boom, patrol method for the scouts who want to do the badge. Since the troop is heavily adult lead, you offering the badge to the troop is something the SM will not veto. The only question is, are you a backpacking enthusiast? I'm going this weekend in this Midwestern polar vortex. For once I'm taking a personal (non- Scouting trip). One of our other ASM's is leading a different group of Scouts doing the backpacking merit badge. Sentinel947

If only our politicians could learn the same lesson!

What are the other troops like in your area? A troop that is less polished but trying to do things right could be a better option.

Then your options are: 1) Get the Committee Chair to purge the old guys.... 2) Put up with it. 3) Find a different Troop. ​Sorry I can't be more helpful.... ​I'll be honest. There are still little useful nuggets of Scouting even in the worst adult run program. From the sounds of things, pushing real Scouting would create a civil war among the adult leadership. I'm not sure that's worth the anger and frustration that might result.

Interesting post I think on the subject over at Ask Andy http://netcommissioner.com/askandy/2016/04/issue-482-april-7-2016/

Do you know any scouts and scouters that quit over the lack of water balloons and water guns? I'm not defending the decision. ​They are cowardly and fearful rules that rather patronizingly try to eliminate harm that doesn't exist.​ ​However, out of all the people I talk to about scouting, the stupid water balloon/gun ban has never come up. Our Troop conducts exit interviews from any families that leave the troop, and it's never been cited as a reason for people quitting. Maybe people in my neck of the woods hate water balloons and guns... There are a host of reasons why the scouting movement and more specifically the BSA is declining in this country. While a water balloon/gun ban is a sign of the symptoms for our fearful masters in Irving, it is hardly the most pressing concern in my mind. If I rubbed a genie's lamp and was allowed to change one aspect of the BSA permanently across the country, unbanning water balloons wouldn't be in my top 20 of things I'd consider choosing. ​TL:DR: The ban is dumb, but there's way bigger fish to fry. I just laugh at the craziness of it and move on.

Get this scouter on the district training team stat! Well said.

Welcome! Lucky for your Troop, there is nowhere else on the internet with more Scouting experience than this forum. There a bunch of folks here who have been doing this stuff for decades on end. Some of us have absolutely faced this exact same challenge and I'm sure they'll drop in their advice when they see this thread. However I'll lay out my first thoughts . ​Troops become adult lead because adults don't know better. Your youth are capable. They can lead their troop. Scouting has been around for over 100 years now, trust the program. Training is a good starting point, but it's only as good as the trainer. Other resources are critical to fill in the gaps. This forum, www.scoutmastercg.com , as well as a multitude of books such as Working the Patrol Method really help fill in the blanks, and can sometimes give knowledge that can only be otherwise obtained by long hard years of experience. What is your role in the Troop? If you are the SM or the Committee Chair, you are in excellent position. If you are an ASM, and you are trusted sidekick to the SM, it's possible to lead a troop back towards true north. If you are not one of those positions, the path forward is extremely difficult. ​ You know your Troop. A transition like this will face much resistance. Not just from the adults, but also your Scouts who will be wary of radical changes. You may lose adults and scouts who don't like or trust the concepts of a boy led program. ​This is a long process forward. My troop was in a somewhat similar situation to yours. In 2014 we decided it was time to make a course correction, it's been a long frustrating slog. It's been fantastic, and our program is much better because of it. Perhaps in another post, I'll explain that story, but I've already offered a massive post here. I want other people to put their two cents in. ​If your SM and CC agree to the changes you are proposing, be prepared for a long process, with plenty of set backs. Be comfortable that it will never be exactly how you envision it right now. As I frequently tell my Scouts, "We do things the way we do them because nobody has bothered to question why we do it that way." ​Best of luck to you! Sentinel947

I understand your frustration, but I highly doubt perspective cub scouts or their parents are aware of such legalistic fine print rules. Lets not run away with hyperbole.

Eagle 94, have I sent you my wishlists from when we started this process in my Troop? ​I recommend you create something like your list above in a document. ​In that document, outline in order of importance your ideas. Include with them where the official BSA resources support your idea, and why the change would benefit your scouts. ​I found that tool invaluable in securing support for different changes.

They are not scientists, but you can hire firms to conduct studies and consultants to give you answers who are....

Gave Calico the marked as answer, since his is more succinctly written than mine.

Good catch! It doesn't need to be 6 hours all in one single project! I've edited my comment to reflect the lost plural s in project!

Unfortunately this happens more often than it should. You may not like my answer. For first class: Since joining, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, six of which include overnight camping. These 10 activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On at least five of the six campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect (such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee). It is possible (since you didn't mention the rank) that your son didn't meet this requirement. For Star, Life and Eagle: "Be active in your troop for (four months for star, 6 for life and eagle) while (previous rank) These are the appropriate places to deal with a Scout and his attendance on outings. However, the scoutmaster has to be making a clear and consistent policy as what counts as "active" Scout Spirit is about the Oath and Law, attendance is dealt with in other requirements. On that basis the BOR is out of line, and maybe the SM. Page 25-26 of this document outlines Scout Spirit http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf Your options are to bring this up to the Committee Chair, complain to your council, or find a different troop. Best of luck to you.

@Krampus: All I'm saying is words have a definition. There's definitely situations and grey zones to these things. Also, I'm doing my best to not create straw men in my reasoning, call me out if you see any. Hay is for horses. One could argue that any consequence is humiliating, but the standard is what a reasonable person finds to be humiliating. (At least if you apply the legal principles around harassment.) I mentioned frat hazing because it's in the definitions of the online dictionary I pulled the definition from. We agree on cleaning the dishes, or putting up chairs. I'm not advocating for black and white rules on what is and is not hazing. I'm not advocating for removal of any and all consequences to misbehavior in fear of embarrassing people. There are some folks out there who are going to take offense at anything, or are self conscious, we have to adjust and deal with that. We all have to make that appropriateness of punishment judgment on the spot, using our best judgments. Therefore it's important to understand the definition of hazing, so we can evaluate what is and what is not hazing. Often if I am going to levy consequences for behavior or my Scouts want to for some infraction I think of a few principles: What is the problem? What is the solution? Are there other ways to correct the problem? Would a reasonable person consider this hazing or bullying? What keeps best with the spirit of the Scout Oath and Law? How will parents perceive this? Will it actually achieve the desired effect? For the scout who doesn't clean his dishes. The PL going "Hey, Timmy can you clean it again? It has chili in it." It's the solution to the problem. It shouldn't be considered hazing, it's not strenuous, it shouldn't be humiliating (unless the PL makes it so (think Gunny from Full Metal Jacket) and it shouldn't involve bullying or imbalance of power, because any other patrol member would be subject to it if they failed to clean the chili out of the pot. There are no better ways to fix that problem, it fits with the Oath and Law, the parents Shouldn't have an issue and it should achieve the desired effect. At the risk of derailing this thread, that's the last bit I'm going to say about it in this thread. (Hold me to it!) Sentinel947

No. I don't think anybody in my troop thought about including the Scribe in with the treasurers duties, including myself. For me it's pretty outside of my lane. It's something I'd have to bring up to the CC, who has been really supportive of the whole boy led, patrol method stuff.

@Eagle94-A1 It seems like you've diagnosed a handful of really common problems. Thankfully these are not unique to your troop. Makes battling with them a little easier. How will your troop solve some of them? What are your ideas?

I'd offer to connect you with my Troops treasurer, but in that area we are very similar spot to your troop.

@@Krampus, I'll try to not derail this thread, but words mean something. I think you'll agree. Hazing is defined as: humiliating and sometimes dangerous initiation rituals, especially as imposed on college students seeking membership to a fraternity or sorority Or the imposition of strenuous, often humiliating, tasks as part of a program of rigorous physical training and initiation. Push ups would qualify. Singing can be considered humiliating and therefore hazing. Cleaning the meeting room? Maybe if they had to clean the room while everybody else watched them, but not inherently hazing. My troop doesn't do uniform inspections. In the nuclear fireball that is my troops old policies and procedures, the PLC hasn't gotten around to that yet. As for cleaning, the SPL assigns a different patrol each week to be the service patrol, which involves vacuuming and reseting the meeting room.

I don't dispute your assertion. You aren't wrong. However, the national BSA resources don't make that distinction.