Sentinel947

But your troop is doing it right and following both the letter and spirit of the rules.

I took IOLS roughly 10 months after I earned my Eagle. I knew the instructor and so for much of the skills practice he and I split the class to teach things like knots. Good times..

I'm a bleeding heart, but I don't think If I was an SM I'd sign off on a Scout I'd never worked with. In this case there's a proper procedure to initiate a review from the Council. It doesn't involve a third party SM signing off the stuff.

Yup. The last three Scoutmasters in my Troop were all excellent. None of them were Scouts. We've had many parents who were Eagle and relatively few serve on the Committee or as ASM's. It's about heart and motivation. @@desertrat77 is correct that it transcends rank or scouting experience. Give me a motivated volunteer who is hungry to learn and do things right over a distinguished one any day.

Yes, this is a forum. Yes the post is by a parent. Yes, we should be skeptical of posters who might have an axe to grind. I think everybody here is being pretty calm, but it is important to note we only have one half of the story. Krampus and Hedgehog (and I) are making a working assumption that the OP's description is true. That being said: No offense to Beavah, but, Folks use that same line of (BSA documents are just guidelines) to create their own little fiefdoms, where they create "perfect" "boy run" troops that are anything but. They refuse to adapt, adjust or follow the rules. They play fast and loose with the rules, and in the end, their Scouts are the real losers. So is Scouting as a movement. I wouldn't call it Holy Writ, because there's only a handful of documents in this world I'd call holy writ, and none of it is written by the BSA. That being said, isn't our job as BSA volunteers to execute a BSA program to the best of our abilities? Wouldn't part of that gaining of knowledge and skills being to read BSA documents that were created to help us do our volunteer roles? Specifically the Guide to Advancement in this case? These documents and requirements often establish a bare minimum. It's up to us as leaders to encourage and motivate our scouts to achieve beyond the requirements. Waiting to ambush a Scout about his activity at the last minute is cowardly. Sure, it's an unpleasant conversation to talk with/or call the Scout and his parents and inform them that he is not meeting the troop's (already made and established) standards for Activity or a POR, but come on. I'm with @@Krampus and @@Hedgehog on this one. What's the harm in getting the council to look in to it? If the Troop is breaking the rules, they deserve the smackdown. If they aren't than they should have nothing to fear. It would actually be a positive because then the Council can correct the parent. I know my unit would have nothing to fear. Sentinel947

If it isn't hands on, they aren't doing it properly.

"well trained Eagle asm", One may be physically present without having understood the training. I wouldn't call it well trained. For a lot of folks (myself included), I had to unlearn what I had learned as a Scout. I needed to open my mind to the fact that how it was done when I was scout was not perfect (and was often wrong.) I think a potentially useful way to get this ASM's meddling to stop is to figure out WHY he's doing what he's doing. Clear up misconceptions or fears he might have. Sentinel947

To bee honeyst, I was surprised it was in Issues and Politics. It just didn't beelong.

BEAVAH!!!!! Where the heck have you been???

At the (somewhat) request of Schiff the topic has been moved to Open Discussion. Unless Bees bring about the downfall of Western Civilization, this topic need not be in Issues and Politics.

If the troop doesn't make an expectations on attendance, then there's nothing to be afraid of for his EBOR.

Adults interact with the SM. Those SM's and maybe ASM's interact with the SPL. That will help cut down on the barrage of "helpful advice" that will simply paralyze your SPL. Same goes for PL's. I love that you are getting this all written down. It helps keep you organized and on message when you start pitching changes to the skeptical.

The lightweight packer in screams at the idea of a 5 ounce carabiner.... but at the risk of going hungry, that's a weight I'd be happy to schlep around.

https://www.rei.com/product/771123/nite-ize-s-biner-size-4 I wouldn't call it high quality. I can see what you're talking about. The carabiner proper should hold, it's the clip that would fail. Correct?

Whew. My wallet is safe for now. But now you're pitching me carabiners in another thread.

Been using S biners for a few years without trouble. Maybe I've been lucky.

Don't do this to me.... lol. Can you link me to one?

Yup, if you don't have a TG embedded with an NSP, it's not going to work out. It'd be better to integrate those boys if your Troop guides cannot or will not work with the NSP. @@Eagle94-A1 what happened with the S biner? I want to know.

Lol. There's no way I could fit my sleeping bag into a ziplock. I could put it in a trash bag, but a trashbag won't compress it, and it would be pretty bulky. So I have a waterproof compression bag to make it smaller and keep it dry. Sometimes folks at outdoor retailers will try to upsell folks into nylon compression sacks for things that don't really need it or a ziplock would be more than adequate. Or they sell folks Nalgenes when a SmartWater/Gatorade/Powerade bottle is lighter, and is durable to last a year's worth of hiking. They cost like a $1.50 each..... I 100% agree that anybody who throws away a pack because it's not waterproof is out of their mind. A dirty, wet pack is a happy pack. It means it's being used. I've seen two strategies. One is a cover like @@Krampus suggests. The contents and pack fabric will stay dry, the straps will still get wet. (I think wet straps feels good unless they start chaffing, OUCH!) Generic rain covers run $20-40$ depending on manufacturer and size. @@Stosh outlines the very popular trash bag liner routine. The fabric of the pack will get wet, but the contents will not. I don't even bring a tarp with me backpacking. I just put the rain cover on the pack, and lean it up against a tree overnight. All my extra clothes and sleeping gear comes into the tent with me. Another option is a large contractor trash bag. Just stick your mostly empty pack into the trash bag and tie it shut. I'd use the pack cover if my load is small and I can fit most of my stuff in the pack. If I have to clip lots of things onto the outside of the bag, I'm going with the trash bag liner routine, and the stuff on the outside better be stuff I don't want wet. @@Stosh If you are using a Yucca, you can probably fit your poncho on over it, with a modern internal or external frame, I think that would be a bit of a stretch. @@blw2 Look at the Atmos AG 65. It has the back airflow you like from externals. I have that trampoline suspension on my Exos, I will never go back. I love backpacking, I wish my troop did it more. Sentinel947

We're moving closer together. We've gone from 1870, to 1915, to 1963. Canvas packs are very different than a civil war blanket roll. At least we're arguing about hiking and gear philosophy rather than Ludditism. Sure, older gear can work. Old 60's Scout or Military gear is workable. If money is tight, and that's what's available, go for it. I love the places within a few hours drive that are wilderness campsites. I've dug my fair share of catholes. It would be a mistake to lump me in as somebody who is afraid to leave the campground and the car. That being said, I try to lighten my gear as much as what is safe and won't destroy my budget. With a lighter pack I can hike faster, see more, be in less pain afterward. I can lessen damage to my feet, knees and back, which should hopefully let this millennial take my grandchildren backpacking many years from now. I'll also admit that I am a huge gear head. I love fiddling with the latest technology. I just ordered a water filter today for $20 that lets you drink straight out of the water source. Sawyer mini or something like that. There are absolutely a bunch of ways to go about this. But I'm not convinced the average Scouter or scout is going to be able to backpack with a civil war era kit. Most folks don't have 1960's scout gear floating around, which if they did, would be almost too valuable from a historical perspective to use as day to day gear. Hence, I try to generalize my advice to what I perceive to be the general hikers experience. Beyond Scouter.com I read and contribute at backpacking enthusiasts sites like backpackinglight, several reddit threads. As always, YMMV Sentinel947

Nice find. Internet can be a great resource to find gear cheaper. Full price is for the lazy, inexperienced, or desperate. Externals work fine. They are a little heavy for my taste, but I'm not a beginning backpacker anymore. As long as it fits you and your gear it should suit you just fine. The Atmos is amazing. I have it's lightweight equivalent, the Exos. Went backpacking in the midwestern polar vortex this weekend. My entire kit with water and food was about 26 pounds. When I first started backpacking I would have been carrying like 50!

Stosh, Eagledad and blw2 hit the nail on the head.

You missed the point I think. Technology has advanced since 1870. Or 1915. Just like that we use electricity instead of candles at home. Toilets instead of outhouses. Camping gear has likewise improved. That's fine at a camporee. If I'm hiking Shawnee State park with my Scouts, in an environment that most backpackers describe as "masochistic", The first 9 miles contain about 2500ft of climbing. You can put a 40 pound kit on a 12 year old in your care, for nostalgia's sake. I'm going to use reasonable advances in technology that have taken place since 1915 to keep the Scouts and other adults from getting seriously injured or so banged up that they won't give up backpacking as a hobby. YMMV. Sentinel947

Quoted because it's solid advice. I also like Ziplocks. You can spend 15$ per bag for a silnylon stuff sack that can hold your clothes, or you can just use 10 cent ziplocks..... I do recommend a waterproof nylon compression sack for sleeping bags. https://www.rei.com/product/730882/sea-to-summit-event-compression-dry-sack Another nice feature to consider on packs are mesh stretch pockets on the back. I tend to keep a good deal of stuff in them. Fuel, plastic garden spade(for digging cat holes), first aid kit in a ziplock, bear bag rope, carabiners, rain cover for my pack, rain jacket for me. The only stuff that actually goes in my pack is the sleeping bag at the bottom, clothes next, then food. I lash/tie my sleeping pad to the bottom of the pack, and I put my tent under the lid. Sometimes depending on the weather I can get my tent to go into my pack standing straight up, then put my clothes and food on the other side. Another good way to store a tent if you have trouble fitting it in the pack is to take it out of it's bag, put the poles in a water bottle pocket, and use straps to hold it down. then put the tent body and fly in the body of your pack.