Sentinel947

Not sure how the UC ties in. What happens when those disagreements are on how to fundamentally run the organization. When there is a power vacuum the CC refuses to deal with? When maintaining a firm stance continues to create friction with ano there adult who refuses to meet halfway. I'm pretty sure I've read that the gunship won't even talk to Eagle94. The SM is awol. How do you possibly fix that. I don't often suggest forming a new troop. But in Eagle94s case. It's that , quit or allow the current power struggle to continue.

OK. That's nice in theory. I agree. In practice, how do you deal with the situation specifically in this thread?

Sticky situation. If the CC or COR is not willing to resolve the SM issue, making a new troop might be the best way to go.

Eagle is what a scout makes of it. It's a individual journey for each Scout. It starts with the requirements, but those are just a means to keep kids engaged. The experience is what matters. I agree with those who worry about the cult of Eagle. Some folks take it too far and make it too much. My Eagle to me is a symbol of my involvement and service in Scouting. My youth accomplishment and my adult service. It's also a reminder that every day I should strive to live by the Oath and Law. It's definitely not a Sainthood. We do our scouts a disservice by making it so.

"Give your Scouts room to lead, and they will not disappoint you."

Welcome to Scouter.com. As a friendly reminder, we are not an official resource of the BSA, but there isn't a place on the internet where you will find more experience and helpful Scouters than this site. Sentinel947

Personal experience: take it or leave it. I turned 18 at the beginning of my senior year. (Your son ages out early!) I registered as a Unit College Scouter reserve. this is great in order to keep young adults around without subjecting them to all the ASM training. If he plans to be around consistently, then the ASM route (Which I did) is very rewarding, and depending on his choice of college/trade school, he may be able to stick around beyond the end of High School.

A handful of Scouts in our troop took a trip two years ago. A group is currently planning another trip this month. What questions do you have? I can get info from them and pass it along.

I definitely got my fair share of shooting time in. Camp covered my NRA instructor courses as well. So that was nice.

i made $300 a week as a rifle range director.

Welcome back. I wondered where you went. Glad to hear life is settling down for you.

Knot relays are unfair. kids with good memories and motor control have an advantage.....lol

273 current guest users. Is that a bug, a DOS attack or did somebody just forget to close a bunch of tabs?

You think that's bad? @@Stosh, @@Krampus, @@Beavah, and I are having the same discussion across like 3 threads, and we've been having it for almost a week!!!!

I can't help but wonder if you are deliberately ignoring the case study we have from the OP. I understand your point, the program has a mission beyond advancement. I don't dispute that. I do dispute that we need to pull tricks like the SM in the OP to do it. We can have Scouts learn important life lessons and skills, and follow the requirements. That's what they are for!!!!! You said it yourself "It's a tool we use to teach." We have all the requirements we need to run the program. There is no reason to add extras except for whimsy. None of the folks in this discussion has said anything about rank advancement and "entitlement" except yourself. Rank advancement is earned. It has requirements to earn the ranks. There are procedures to administer it. We should follow those procedures. @@Krampus has the citation from the same source you used earlier. But now it will go back to being "optional' I guess. Cooking Merit Badge is where the BSA CHANGED THE REQUIREMENTS. It's their program, they can do with it whatever the heck they want. Like add Cooking Merit Badge, or banning bubble ball. You indirectly made my point. From what I'm reading you are advocating is that an SM can say, "My scouts don't have to earn Cooking Merit Badge because I think it's useless." Or something ridiculous like "I see you've finished the Cooking Merit Badge Requirements, but to really prove it, you must cook 10 more meals before I'll sign the badge." Why? What lesson does this teach? Rank advancement is only one of eight methods. I'm completely aware of this. I teach new Scoutmasters. You are again setting up a strawman argument. That because some of us believe the rules should be followed we think advancement trumps all. This is not true. This topic began by focusing on a specific advancement related situation. I don't even think advancement is really the most important aspect of the program. I'd put Patrol Method, Personal Growth, and Adult Association before Advancement. But THIS TOPIC SPECIFICALLY is related to advancement, and not a whole lot else. While I don't have over 7,000 posts like you do, In my +1,300 posts I have spent a lot of time extolling the other methods of Scouting. If a Scout does something like what you referenced, he should be suspended from his unit. He wouldn't be eligible for advancement. Or going on the Scoutmaster's assigned extra camping trips. How does extra camping trips prove Scout spirit if the Scout beat up somebody or stole from the local store??? Here is your mechanism to deal with that situation. The Scout would be removed from the Troop between the signing of the Scout Spirit Requirement and his BOR. His reinstatement would based on whatever standards the Troop Committee and SM decide on his reinstatement. That's not adding to the requirements, that's abiding by membership standards. The Scout in the OP did not beat up somebody. He didn't steal. Again, would you remedy that situation by telling him to go camping more? I doubt it. Sentinel947

South Country is definitely going to be where those events take place. Chuck Wagon dinner should be Clarks Fork, if I remember correctly. Philmont has done a good job of spreading the good stuff out, 3/4 of my time at Philmont was spend north of the Tooth, so I really don't have a whole lot to add.

Which treks are they going on? I went out of Rayado turnaround last summer. My trek was only in the South of the Ranch for a few days, as we quickly turned north to get to Baldy. Our trip was definitely more about hiking. We went about 90 miles. In the South/Mid country, Abreu (or Aquila) is cool if your Scouts like History. It's an old settlers homestead. Zastrow has a cool orienteering course/geocaching. It also has a Wood Badge museum if any of your advisers care (the Scouts sure don't.) The Tooth is well worth it. When they hike it, they need to carry AT least 3 liters of water. they can fill up in stream below the trail head to tooth ridge. It's hot and dry as hell. Catherdral rock and window rock are a must see. Without seeing the itineraries, that's about all I can say from memory. If you can, let me know which treks they are taking. Sentinel947

You make it sound like the SM made a request. He made a demand. I constantly request my older Scouts to stay involved beyond what is required for advancement. They often have a perfectly reasonable reason for why they cannot attend certain outings. If they can make it, then generally do. The camping is irrelevant. The SM could have demanded he attend 10 more meetings in order to fulfill the requirement. It'd still be wrong, as I'll explain below. What stops us from ignoring that? It's all just guidelines anyways, it's not holy writ, lets not be zero tolerance about things.... Nah...Education and following the requirements as written, as well as not adding requirements, are not mutually exclusive goals. At least not in my Troop. A Troop has plenty of ways to encourage activity in their scouts, both requirements and informally. There is no need to make up additional requirements beyond what is in the handbook. Once the Troop signed off "Active in the Troop for Six months while Life Scout" they closed that avenue. They closed the case on using requirements to force additional outings. If they had told this Scout after earning his Life Scout: "In order to be active in our Troop you must go on six outings before you go for Eagle". "Our troops definition of active is to have been on the monthly outing." That's allowed. It's a little crazy to demand 100% attendance, but it is allowed. there's your discretion. To tack it on at the end, after they've already certified he's been active enough to their satisfaction, is not OK. Sentinel947

I liked both desertrat and Tahawks comments because both are true. Failure is an excellent teacher, as Krampus and Stosh's examples illustrate. A few weeks back I took a college buddy backpacking for the first time. At one point, he said "My foot feels funny." I replied. "Lets stop and look at it." He said "it'll be fine, lets keep going." I told him "You're probably getting a blister, it would take 2 minutes to fix." I got "I'll be fine." My buddy got a nice blister on his heel. Backpacking lesson 101 learned by failure. take care of your feet! In some situations, giving our scouts a friendly piece of advice or coaching is ok. IMO this should be as unobtrusive as possible, and definitely not doing it for them. This is generally when they are stuck and come to us for advice. I try to use questions to tease the answers out of them. They almost always already know the answer.

Welcome!

Ok. Lets try this again.. Beavah son plays on a soccer team. There are rules to how to play soccer set up by the League of Youth Soccer. Beavah coach decides his players can use their hands because "the rules are not absolute mandates." The GTA and other BSA documents are the rules to how to play Scouting. There is already plenty of room for interpretation within those documents that reasonable people constantly disagree on. Even Troops that follow the GTA and other documents can vary within how they approach things. The rules provide ways to flex themselves. Take "Be active in your Troop for 6 months." A troop can define what that means, communicate it, and hold a scout accountable to it. There's your flexibility, and your local judgment. But for example if we to decide that we are going to make it be 8 months, because "it's better for the lads and its the lesson I want to teach them." is disregarding the rule. If that's the "local judgment" you are looking for, then we have to agree to disagree. Why have requirements at all? But completing disregarding those documents, and doing the opposite, is playing soccer while using your hands to throw the ball. I guess that's a "Zero tolerance" rule in some peoples eyes. There should be flexibility for all players in soccer to touch the ball with their hands, and flexibility for all Scoutmasters to stonewall Scouts advancement for whatever reason they deem prudent. I don't believe that's what you're really advocating for Beavah. I feel like we are misunderstanding each other across various threads. Again, BSA rules are not zero tolerance, because zero tolerance mandates a specific penalty in addition to having a rule. There is frequently no punishment for not following BSA rules. You're basically making an argument that there should be no rules at all, because everybody needs to be flexible. But we should follow the BSA rules, because we volunteered to run a BSA program and that's the way the BSA says the program should be run. At the end of the day, I can't force anybody to follow the documents. I sure do feel for the Scouts who get crappy programs, without the patrol method, where their advancement gets denied for ridiculous reasons because the SM feels like he can do whatever the heck he wants, and all the BSA crap is optional. Sentinel947

Reducing redundant items, using multi use items, planning out water stops. (You don't need to carry 5 liters of water during the spring in my neck of the woods..) Helps cut weight, regardless if you have the greatest and newest gear or not. Also paying full retail price for gear is for chumps. Every online retailer has sales, in September/October or so they will clearance spring and summer gear to get it out of the store. Especially if a new model is coming.

That would have been the last camporee I ever went to. Its worse than having a chaperone. You have a really loud annoying chaperone.

My comments are in red. I think you're reading into that other thread more than you should be. Long story short, we can follow the GTA without enabling slackers. There are proper leeway to do it. A lot of it comes from having a formal active policy, and enforcing that. The other half is extremely informal. Are we getting to know the parents and the kids? My unit doesn't even have an attendance policy and we have very few slacker Eagles come through. As for Scout Spirit, "Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. " is the test of the requirement. That is there time inside AND outside the Troop. In the end our goals as an organization is for our Scouts to live the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives. I know we as Troop leaders can accomplish this without creating our own requirements, while still not allowing our troops to become slacker city. Sentinel947