Sentinel947

When those of us here on the forums gripe about Family Scouting, we aren't talking about girls, or families renting a campsite at camp outside of summer camp. We're talking about the BSA encouraging families to attend monthly troop outings. Most of us have seen it in our units, or others. It's normally a mess of helicopter parenting and demotivated youth. It breaks down the patrol method, and stifles team development and learning of self sufficiency. Nothing wrong with a parent coming along to volunteer or observe. I imagine the idea of having families camp at the summer camp while the program is going on is a total non-starter for most of us here. Scouts carpool to and from summer camp, so most of the families in my troop don't take their scouts to or from summer camp. This is a solution in search of a problem. As for the survey, maybe you got one, but almost nobody else on this forum did. Many of us have been longtime volunteers, involved in units, Districts and Councils for quite a long time. Many (although not me) have their kids in the program too. The data collection methods weren't really published, so it's impossible for us to know how valid the survey was, other than assurances from BSA national, and they haven't always conducted themselves with integrity or transparency.

Agreed. Lets rip the bandaid off. We need to put these cases behind us for good, and protect the CO's from potential liability. I hope my council participates in the settlement. Ideally try to keep local camp properties if the council can afford them. I'd be sad to see us lose the HA bases, but they aren't the meat and potatoes like summer camp is. I share @MattRs concern. The program has always been about character building and citizenship development. Camping and outdoor fun is important because it (along with the patrol method) is how we accomplish these bigger goals. If Scouting becomes a purely camping club, particularly a family camping club, I have no need to participate. Even if I have kids, I could do cheaper, more robust, less restrictive outdoor activities with them than I can with the Scouts. No juggling other peoples calendars, no sending money to Irving.

I suppose that makes sense. Although I think it will also hit NYLT pretty hard. Any idea when these changes will be communicated? The BSA already struggles to utilize and retain young adults in Scouting. I do not have any optimism that Councils will come up with roles suitable for these young adults, or use/treat them appropriately. More likely, this is a group of young adults we will lose, and I can only hope they'll return when they have their own kids. @Eagle94-A1 what do you think? After this rule change, given that these 18-20 year old's do not count as acceptable supervision for a Troop program, the only thing I can see them doing in the normal council is summer camp staff. My other concern and hopefully the details will be less alarming: "We will become intensively more outdoor in program emphasis. There will be complete emphasis on "outdoor fun" and a backing-away from "character building". The program since it's inception has always been about "character building." Outdoors skills, experiences and fun have always been a way we achieve that. Hopefully this will be more of thematic/marketing shift.

Did they say why they are making this change? It's likely going to gut Venturing and the OA. These over 18-21 are already registered as adults and have taken YPT. I don't see what the issue is having them as they are currently.

Seriously, why offer camp at that point?

Interesting. What responsibility does a parent have for their own child if they send them someplace knowing that the coronavirus is out there and a danger? Can I sue the grocery store if I get coronavirus there? If I had kids, and I took them to the grocery store and they got sick, can I sue the store? (Assuming I can prove it?) At what point are we responsible for ourselves and our families? We all know the virus is out there, and it's a risk, and anybody who can promise 100% safety from it is a liar. If 100% safety from the virus is the standard, then nothing is opening until there is a vaccine. We aren't holding other activities or businesses to that standard. I can see if it's something negligent and someone gets harmed, like a structure collapse, or a fire, or even a food borne illness. That being said, it's just too early, and while we are in this early phase of the pandemic, Scout Camp is a luxury that just doesn't need to happen. Hopefully by next Summer, vaccine or not, we'll be able to have summer camps again.

Would your lawyer friend sue if their kid got bronchitis or the flu from camp? If camp opened against health codes, or violated established codes, I could see a lawsuit. Otherwise, being able to sue people because I got an illness from them sounds ridiculous (although I am not a lawyer.) How would they prove the kid got COVID at camp and didn't have it asymptomatically before camp? Personally, I think camp and HA should be cancelled, but the liability piece is fascinating.

Summer residence camps in Dan Beard Council (Cincinnati, Ohio) were cancelled. There will be some sort of day camp option announced in the next few weeks.

Camp Friedlander in Cincinnati Ohio will be announcing their summer plans on Monday.

Agreed. I'm not sure what @David CO's comment about primitive camping meant. I've taken a number of Scout crews backpacking, and there was no potable water or restrooms. It is primitive. We used hand sanitizer and biodegradable dish soap. For cub groups, given that they aren't backpacking, even in a primitive campground (no potable water), it'd be possible to use a handwashing station like @5thGenTexan's.

I'm not sure what the issue is. For trailer type camping I love the set up @5thGenTexan posted. If it's backpacking, at least on my trips, everybody brings a small bottle of hand sanitizer. Use it before eating or after using the cat hole.

I don't believe that 66% are intentionally lying. People's reporting of their own events are notoriously unreliable in a medical setting... "How'd you get this injury?" "How many alcoholic beverages do you drink in a typical week?" "Do you have thoughts about self-harm?" Much depends how the question is asked. "Have you been following the stay at home order?" Answer "Yes.". Reality: They have to go to the grocery store, they go outside for exercise and pass their neighbors doing the same. They visit with family members they do not live with, they visit with neighbors they don't live with... they go to public parks. (Especially in NYC.) Do all members of the household follow the stay at home order? What kind of activities outside the home do they get involved in? I see a lot of kids outside at the basketball court near me, while it's possible they are 10 siblings, I find that unlikely. Many people mean to be following the stay at home orders, but all the exceptions are opportunities to be infected or spread the infection. Now with states reopening businesses, the orders are even more confusing to follow. In my state, next week outdoor spaces for restaurants can reopen. Does the Governor want me to stay at my house or patronize these reopening restaurants? @yknot's point is well put. There is a variability to living conditions in various areas that makes following a stay at home order difficult. As a suburbanite, I have storage space for food, and a car to transport it that many in NYC may not have. I also don't have a spouse or kids, making my trips to the grocery store less frequent. If we're being totally honest with ourselves, very few people are completely and totally following the stay at home orders in their entirety. I know I've broken the stay at home order a few times. Most of it was for selfish social reasons. I did the best I could to minimize risk to myself and others, and I've won the gamble. Other people have not won their own gambles. Thankfully, nobody I know has been diagnosed or hospitalized. Stay at home orders are an attempt to deal with what could be an overwhelming health crisis. Only time will tell if it was an overreaction. There will be some case studies to look at how countries have handled this: Sweden vs their neighbors, Taiwan, Korea, China, Italy. At least in my state, the stay at home order has worked, even with mixed compliance. It bought the hospitals the time they needed to get their supplies in place. It gave cities in my state time to plan and create additional care facilities. Hopefully by the end of the month we'll have a decent amount of tests here. By the end of June, we'll know more if the re-openings are premature, or if the lock downs were unnecessary.

People would never lie to their doctors/health providers about their compliance with medical advice/the law! Would they? 😄

Not only that, but most campgrounds are reopening under the requirement that the groups are less than 10 people, and that all campers are from the same family/household.

It has to be... how do you sell something if nobody knows it's for sale?

Basically a fire sale.... Sold at any price. They must already have a prospective buyer lined up...

Only if the wilderness areas and campgrounds open up. Many of them have been closed because of the mobs of people who were flooding into them with nothing else to do.

Oh come on now... Scouting has been through wars, threat of nuclear annihilation, and polio scares. At some point, when social distancing is relaxed and public gatherings are allowed, Scouts will get back with their troops and camp. And before you say that the BSA will keep things virtual after the crisis, people won't pay long term for virtual Scouting once the real outdoor activities are available.

I'm ok with considering a virtual troop meeting to be a troop meeting and requiring two adults, but I can also see how that logic could be extended to any time two Scouts are doing anything together virtually, and that would be absurd. As far for "fun dying." Group dynamics absolutely change when participants in the group change. I do not agree that 9/10 times if youth change their behavior around adults, that they were acting inappropriately. Youth have to adjust their communication styles around adults, and they will also be more wary of being contradicted or corrected by adults. Further, around their parents or authority figures, they don't want to say something that will embarrass them in front of that authority figure, which could be totally harmless around their peers. Also, many adults (including yours truly) cannot keep our mouths shut and opinions to ourselves. BP understood this, and that's why Scouts are supposed to have space away from adults, under our supervision, where they can grow, practice leading themselves and others, and be part of a team, without being railroaded by adults. Adults being present totally changes this dynamic, as the leader of the group is always and automatically the adult, despite our best intentions as adults.

Yea, that's a tough call. Has some big impacts on a range of people. Probably in the next week or two they'll need to make that decision. @RememberSchiff had a great post, that I'm going to shamelessly turn into a Scoutmaster minute if I needed. This would not be the first time in the history of Scouting that there has been a disease outbreak that closed camps.

I'll bite on this one. I'm making an assumption that you are referring to NYLT. I can't speak for other councils other than my own, and I'm definitely biased. I went to NYLT as a Scout, and have been on staff as an adult. This summer would be the third summer, but I doubt we're going to have any courses. The program isn't feasible with social distancing, even if we were allowed. As an assistant Scoutmaster, I've seen the effect of NYLT on my Scouts. As a fresh out of high school ASM, I used many of the skills I learned at NYLT to help my newer to Scouting scoutmaster team build a better vision for the patrol method and youth leadership in our Troop. NYLT was the first place as a Scout that I saw a functioning patrol method. It planted the seeds for me of what Scouting was supposed to be. My childhood troop had patrols, but we didn't really use them. We used them even less as the old guard of troop leaders from the 90's retired and the next generation took over. I'm going to mostly defend NYLT. Both NYLT and Wood Badge are not supposed to be outdoors skills courses. It's expected that Scouts or (adults) have already received those skills in their rank advancement or adult leader training. It's also expected that Scouts have been practicing positions of responsibility in their Troops, and that would likely include teaching other scouts how to make campfires. If a troop program is deficient in these areas, making NYLT a week of outdoors skills practice wouldn't likely fix it much anyways. Most Troops struggle with outdoor skills because they don't get outside enough, and they don't do activities that require them to use their skills, or they take the easy way out (line guy out clips, pop up tents, lighter fluid on campfires.) When I was in high school band, my director had a saying, "There is no boring music, just boring musicians." NYLT and Wood Badge are much the same way. If you have an unprepared and boring staff, then the course would be boring. If the staff is more interested in them having a good time, than the participants having a good time, then it will be a terrible experience. Look no further than Summer camp, which when done wrong can take swimming, shooting, and a week in the woods, and somehow make it boring and tedious. That's not to say the NYLT program couldn't use a rewrite. (I believe that is in the works.) It's mostly the same that it was over 10 years ago when I went as a participant. I'd love to see a little less corporate management type stuff, and a more about helping Scouts execute a better program back home. Like Wood Badge, I can't help if other Councils program sucks, or if their staffs are full of self-important types, but I do know that Scouting in my council and in my Troop would be significantly weaker without my council's NYLT program. In my council its well attended, and even Scouts that initially don't want to go typically enjoy it and recommend it to others. I've seen stalled out Scouts, bored of the advancement grind, become re- energized for Scouting because of NYLT, including myself when I was a youth. Some of the youth on my staff's found in NYLT a place where many core aspects of Scouting were truly practiced (Youth leadership, patrol method, outdoors, that wasn't in their own units. Even more, they finally felt like they were being challenged and allowed to meet those challenges without undue interference from adults. Even an activity totally unrelated to Scouting skills, like the marshmallow-spaghetti challenge, help teach and reinforce leadership concepts from the course. The course still includes usage of backpacking stoves, realistic first aid, lashing skills, pioneering projects and an overnight outpost. Using Scouting skills to help teach and reinforce leadership. I do wholeheartedly agree that leadership comes in a variety of forms, and it's not only the titled leader up front that matters. Being a good team member can often be its own subtle form of leadership. The world doesn't need (nor can it support) everybody being the stereotypical leader. It needs all sorts of players to make things work.

Elitts, are you pointing to a specific BSA posting somewhere, or just the GTSS requirement of two adults at scouting events being applied to online settings?

Good topic @Eagledad I think the aims and methods are mostly fine as they are. I agree adding leadership development is unnecessary, but here we are. In some ways the aims and methods are a marketing document as well as a statement of organizational goals. I liked @DuctTape's comment and I don't have a ton to add to it. The methods are how we achieve the aims. This creates a very simple litmus test for us. (And maybe I'm underthinking this.) "Does what we are about to do with this method accomplish our aims and how?" For example, creating online merit badge clinics, and packing them full of Scouts, and signing them all off for the badge.... Does that develop character, or leadership? Does it help develop good citizens? Does it improve their personal fitness? If the answer is no, or only kind of, then how can we change our course to be an emphatic yes? Whether or not we consider advancement to be a goal or a method, it should always be kept in context of our aims. "Does the way we are doing advancement help us achieve our aims?"

There are plenty folks involved in this program who can't see the forest for the trees.

Great research! Thanks for sharing!