Sentinel947

Frogg Toggs are not good gear for Scouts, but could be for Adults. Youth will shred them. I use Frogg toggs for trips where the threat of rain is minimal. One should carry a sewing kit or a needle and floss to stick up the rips that will inevitably happen in frogg toggs. Or Duct tape. You'll likely need it with Frogg Toggs. I mostly use just a rain coat. I find the sweat and extra heat from the rain pants is rarely worth it. If I was going on a trip with a lot of rain in the forecast I'd bring rain pants, but on most trips I leave them at home and have rarely regretted it.

Scandals are a part of the decline. Cost is another. The cost factor combines with another: it's a program reliant on unpaid volunteers in a time where more and more parents have to work outside the home. Particularly in lower income communities, this double effect puts Scouting in a position where it's hard to operate. I don't see a solution to that. I have even less confidence the BSA can fix it, but simplifying and reducing the cost of the program is a good place to start.

While they add another merit badge (agree with @dkurtenbach, not sure that's the best way to address it) can they finally throw us a bone and consolidate the Citizenship badges?

I prefer to let people explain themselves rather than jump to conclusions, but your hunch was correct in this case.

Not sure what you are referring to here. Can you provide some details about when the BSA said that Scouts don't have to follow the Scout Oath and Law?

There is an irony that BP is going to be torn down in England, where his most positive contribution to humanity was made, while his burial site in Kenya (close to where he likely did commit a war crime by modern standards executed a prisoner that was considered too risky to move), he's celebrated with a National Park. BP wasn't perfect. He naively tried to pursue relationships with Nazi Germany in order to bring the Hitler Youth into the World Wide Scouting movement. He was definitely a player in the brutal suppression of southern Africans into the British Empire. The statue to BP in Poole is also modest. It's an endorsement and nod to his founding of Scouting, which is his largest accomplishment, and a positive one at that. It's not a celebration of his military service. I'd like to see it stay, but by the critics logic, there will be no public statues of any historical figures in the UK, since their history is stained with blood and imperialist riches.

NYLT's true value is less in any of the particular leadership skills taught, and more in the Scouts having a chance to live in a model troop, and practice practical leadership among themselves in a setting where the Scouts don't carry the social weight from their old troops. All the social hierarchies from their home troop is temporarily erased. The leadership skills taught at NYLT are the icing on top so to speak. National has directed that there will be no online NYLT. So keep an eye out for a fall course. My council is tentatively planning one, but no news yet.

The Vatican is a sovereign nation. It's very difficult for individuals to sue foreign countries. As far as my understanding goes, the highest in the Church the lawyers can reach is the diocese themselves, maybe the National US Bishops conference.

Yea, we were lucky that this was in the 90's, and the metropark had the funds to buy. It won't work out everywhere. If the council cannot afford the camp, it needs to be sold or go back to it's original owner.

When my council absorbed a nearby struggling council in the 90's, the struggling council's camp was considered redundant, and had not been hosting summer camps for a few years anyways. It was decided to give/sell it to the local metropark system under the agreement that they would waive the usage fee for Scout groups. Today it is a beautiful and oft used public park. My favorite parts to visit is the old camp outdoor chapel which is still standing, as well as the transplanted Oak Tree from Gilwell Park.

Proof of what exactly? What's the sludge?

I think we are talking past one another here. With a few exceptions, this forum is filled with Scouters who have given years, decades, multiple decades of service to Scouts and Scouting. There is much wisdom and experience here. By being on this forum, looking to learn and looking to help teach others, most posters help to give others the knowledge and tools needed to make our Troops successful. I learned a ton from forum members here. I've had my opinions and knowledge challenged and refined, and also grown to see that my Troop does some things really well, and some things pretty poorly. The BSA training is only as good as it's instructors, and the literature can be hit or miss. A web forum is a hard place to make a clear point. Especially since we are often times placing context into other people's writings based on our own experiences. I do my best, (but often fail) to try to read other peoples posts and interpret it with the most charitable interpretation I can think of. I love the Hillcourt quote @HelpfulTracks posted. Boys and girls join Scouting (not just the BSA) because it's supposed to be fun. It's an adventure. The ScoutHand books for a long time have had a letter from the author the CSE promising as much. A Troop that fails to deliver that promise is a failing Troop. However, Scouting does have a purpose beyond being fun and having adventures. One of Scouting's purposes was always to develop citizenship and character. Much of that is inherently built into the program. Scouts are in patrols, the patrols have leaders, they are supposed to lead themselves with adults removing themselves from the picture as much as possible. The patrol working together on an outing, or in an activity is a majority of the citizenship, character, leadership training. That being said, adults have a role to play. Clarke Green over at ScoutmasterCG.com summarizes it better than I ever could, using BP's own words. So I'll leave that to him. https://scoutmastercg.com/b-ps-blog-the-scoutmaster/ . There can be a time and place for a teachable moment between an adult and a Scout. There could be a time for instruction and education in leadership theory, but this is rare. Theory is only good when one has practical experience to compare against the theory and to apply the theory to. This applies to adults too. Developing strong leaders in education, business, government and the military is mostly about role models, peer interaction and mentorship. It's only a tiny bit of theory and formal education. There's no one size fits all approach to Scoutmastership. Each unit is going to be different, each Scout is going to have different needs. Each group will require different approaches. The question we should always be asking ourselves as Troop leaders is "Are we furthering our mission?" Followed closely by "Is this fun?" Followed lastly by "Is this effective?" Unfortunately since B-P's day, laws around minors have changed, parents expectations have changed, and the liability lawyers lurk waiting to pounce and fatten their wallets. Within these changing rules and expectations, I still think there is room to run a program that meets the spirit of BP's intent, even if it's not always possible to follow the prescribed methods. Still use the patrol method. Still separate the patrols as much is possible within the space confines. Do provide the required adult supervision, but that supervision needs to be in their own space, observing, and only intervening when needed for health and safety, or called upon by the youth leaders.

This communication makes it seem like they've backed off eliminating programming for Adults 18-20. "Participants in Kindergarten through age 20."

If they are getting rid of the 18-20 year old youth participant category, then what is a "Young Adult participant"? Aren't there just going to be youth and adults?

Gross. At least we would solve the world's energy crisis by hooking up Dan Beard, William Hillcourt, Baden Powells graves to alternators.

Welcome! Thanks for the clarification!

Pension funds (defined benefit) are to some extent guaranteed by the Federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. If an employee is vested, they will likely get some benefits, but the PBGC DOES NOT have to pay what was promised to the employees. It typically is the full amount, but given all the craziness with COVID-19 and possible bankruptcies related to that, I can't say with certainty. Defined contribution plan, any employer matches that are vested are the employees to keep. Matches can be reduced or cut at any time. The future of the BSA is uncertain, and I'd never gamble my livelihood and future by hitching my wagon to an organization like that. It's on a list with a handful of other legacy companies that are circling the drain, that COVID or no COVID, I won't work for.

You likely have some marketable skills. It's clear the BSA isn't looking out for you as an employee, and future decline is likely inevitable. You should make for the exits before everybody else gets the same idea. It's noble to "go down with the ship" but I like being able to pay my bills and retire someday.

I just listened to his comments more fully. Starting around 52:15, he's talking about changes mostly in light of finances. To me that gives a bit more context about what sacred cows he's talking about. I hope it's more structural, operational than programmatic. The lack of specifics are concerning, but gathering the broader context of his remarks made me feel a bit better. Just gotta wait and see.

This hits so close to home it hurts. Ownby describing things as "sacred cows" is kinda condescending. I don't like the phrase. One persons sacred cow is another person's core feature. Also, it's also kinda derogatory to Hindu's. There are better phrases to use, but that's neither here or there. For example, in the 70's, the leadership of the BSA decided in their wisdom that being outdoors and learning outdoor skills was a sacred cow that could be sacrificed for their new vision. Obviously many Scouters felt that they were cutting a core feature, and were ultimately proven right. Who knows what is on the chopping block yet. Maybe it's sub programs like OA, Venturing, NYLT, Wood Badge. Maybe it's program features like requirements, It almost certainly involves national or council properties and camps. Saying that people's support of those things is: A sacred cow: "an idea, custom, or institution held, especially unreasonably, to be above criticism (with reference to the Hindus' respect for the cow as a sacred animal). " Is starting out the conversation on a bad note. It mentally causes me to dig my heels in. I haven't managed to find the timestamp where he said that, so maybe his tone improved the message significantly, but I think it relates to @desertrat77s point. Given the BSA's track record throughout the years, I don't have any confidence in this "transformation" being anything but failure. This time, unlike the 70's, there isn't a William Hillcourt waiting on the bench to fix things.

For those concerned about it. (Or maybe just me.) Dan Ownby talks about ending programming at 18. It's at the 56:54-57:02 mark. https://nam.scouting.org/?fbclid=IwAR2JR-yD5DMXRgJLrJ_nKOffFqtplXH01rKAjPx4GnwNTHd2hFyIeys7Y0s

Isn't that effectively what college is becoming? Some would argue it's been that way for a while.

I've got no problem with the FOS campaign. Like any other charities I support a value transparency in what my donation goes to. In my council, I feel good about what FOS is used for. With the bankruptcy, money collected for other purposes may go towards the settlement. It's a catch 22. I stop contributing, it hurts council programs today. I keep contributing, the money possibly goes to a settlement fund, and not the purposes I had intended.

Seriously? $66? For what purpose, to be paid over during the settlement? I've been thinking about my FOS contributions. If the organization is going to go bankrupt and slimmed down, where will that money be going? The settlement fund?

I don't think anybody said it had to do with girl troops any more than boy troops. Now I feel like you're trying to paint me and others here as unenlightened reactionaries, which I do not appreciate. I do appreciate the information you are providing from the meetings, and I am trying my absolute best to not shoot the messenger. @Eagledad @Eagle94-A1, @InquisitiveScouter and I have all told you of similar situations that we have personally experienced. Your inability to believe it has no bearing on whether it is true or not. Many of these Scout leaders you describe as "weak willed" are members here or members here served with those Scoutmasters, and that was an exceeding poor choice of words. I'm glad you have parents that are cooperative with your troops programs. "This is what the next generation of Scouters want." Since you aren't offering any actual data to support your claim, I suppose we could start an exceedingly flawed survey on this forum and find out what this subsection of Scouters want. If it was invite only, I could skew it to say whatever I'd want it to say. Especially if I don't need to publish my data, only the results. I've created organizational surveys as part of my job. Statistics/ statistical analysis is part of my professional career. But you are correct, this forum tends to be older, it's not a representative sample of what future parents would want. There's also a delicious level of irony here, because I can guarantee you, I'm younger than you. I am the next generation of Scouters, unless the BSA destroys what makes this program worth having youth participate in. There are small handful of other youth and young adult scouters here, and I have a pretty good guess what their opinions are.