SeattlePioneer

I see a lot of adults posting about how Boy Led their Troops are, but where is the Scouter.Com forum on which Scouts can post? I'd really like to hear what the Scouts would say in forums like this! While Scouts do post here occasionally, don't you think they deserve to have their own forum? Seattle Pioneer

Great. $2 for wood, $1. for a stone and $.50 for paint, glue and anti skid material. Sell it for $20 and you have a gross profit of $16.50. > Shop around. I should probably make a dozen or so of these up and let the Scouts sell them to see how they do. A little test marketing. At present, the Troop sells popcorn in the fall and pizzas we make at a commercial kitchen. They cost about $4. and sell for $8.50. We just got done making 170 of them a few weeks ago. Seattle Pioneer

What good indeed? As Unit Commissioner, I encouraged Pack leaders to attend BALOO training to help them plan a Pack Overnight June 4th and 5th. Yesterday, two of them did attend, as did I. The Pack leadership, and I, used that training tonight to put together much of the Pack Overnight plan. That includes co-ordinating camping by the Scout Troop for which I'm both UC and TC member. The Troop will be helping with setting up the Pack campsite, and the Troop campsite to Camporee standards. The Troop will also be helping the Cub Scouts do their foil dinners, and cooking breakfast for the Pack. At the end of the Crossover Bridge, five Webelos will find Boy Scouts from the Troop, and will leave behinf the Cub Scouts as they join the Troop to camp overnight. AS UC, I'm co-ordinatin this joint activity. At Camporee this Saturday, I plan to take the TC training that's offered there and invite the Troop Committee Chair to take it as well. He doesn't know it, but once he completes that training, he will be eligible to receive the Scout Leader's Training Award and knot. I've arranged with the Training staff for him to be aarded that knot at the completion of the training, as a means of inspiring other newly trained people to do the same. (I'll have copies of the folding award record to hand out to all the newly trained people). Our District Awards dinner is May 20th. I'm planning to invite the Chartered Organization Rep to the dinner (at my expense) as Unit Commissioner so I can get to know him better and involve him more deeply with unit leaders and other Scouters. I'm sending out notices/invitations to attend the District Recognition dinner to parents in both the Pack and Troop. I've selected two adult leaders in the Troop and two in the Pack to receive district Extra Mile awards (a practice encouraged by the DE), so perhaps people will turn out to honor these fine people. In addition, I got to names from the Kiwanis Club that maintains a campt widely used by Scout Units to recognize with Extra Mile awards, and have invited those people and Kiwanis Club members to attend the dinner (at their own expense). I'm also assisting the DE in recruting Cub Pack leaders for training in conducting an effective recruiting campaign that will be held in August. Anyway, I figure Unit Commissioners are good for something. Seattle Pioneer

Very good points. I have a certain bias towards believing that you CAN get awway with poor dietary habits when you are young, that the real weight gain problems don't tend to arise for additional decades. But that's not really true, and the habits we establish as young people tend to benefit or plague us in later years. Another problem is that one of the attractions of Scouting is for boys to learn to cook and to cook the foods they want to eat. I suppose adult leaders have a measure of influence on such things, but probably not a lot. With that likely limitation in mind, how DO you exert that influence and how much influence should adult leaders try to use? Adults do have control over meals for our own "Grump" or "Old Goat" patrols. What menue reforms would you suggest for breakfast, luch and dinner, and would you aim to sell those as explicitly "healthy" options? I just sat in on a Cub Pack Committee meeting planning a pack overnight. The talk there was for foil dinners for the Scouts to make, and lasagna and the usual American diet for adults on pretty much all you can eat buffet style. Breakfast is pancakes, ham, syrup, hot cocoa and coffee. Not too much reform there! Is it worth it to try reforming diet at such an event aimed at families? The menue we have planned for the adult patrol at Camporee next weekend is traditional, high calorie food. One problem I see is that my experience in Weight Watchers is that diet choices need to be very carefully made by individuals to find things that will satisfy the appetite and still be low in calories. That tends to be a long struggle of experimentation, not something that is easily imposed on a one shot basis. And I'm not especially interested in trying to impose such things on either Scouts or Scouters. It has to be a long term lifestyle choice if it's to do any good. Is it worthwhile to offer breakfast of a serving of oatmeal, banana and Sweet'n Low for breakfast? Having had that for breakfast, would you risk following that up with a salad with tuna for lunch and soup, baked chicken breast and salad for dinner? Seattle Pioneer

Our Troop has a plan for a four day bicycle camping trip after school is out. In thinking through the youth protection angles of bicycling, a few problems crop up. Comments or advice are solicited. 1) On a previous day bicycling trip, I found was cycling along at the back of the group in order to deal with any problems. For a time, a second adult was occasionally driving by in a truck to assist if needed. Towards the end of the trip one young Scout became intensely saddle sore, to the point of tears, and was also fatigued. He didn't want to go on. A second boy was also highly fatigued. He'd already gotten a ride for a ways, but made a second effort at bicycling, but got very tired again. I would have had no problem letting them get a ride, but the truck and driver didn't come along. With some tears and much complaining, they did finish the trip ---an additional mile or so on a six mile or so trip. At one point, the boys stopped a letter carrier to plead that they couldn't go on. No help there, as it turned out. So --- how do you deal with "two deep leadership" in this kind of situation? We had emphasized the importance of staying with your buddy, but weren't able to (or at least didn't) enforce that hard enough to make it stick. I was left with two boys ---similar to the situation that is acceptable when driving with boys in a car, but this wasn't a car. I could have just as easily wound up with just one boy present. What to do in that circumstance? 2) On the camping trip we are planning, adult leadership may be somewhat thin. I'm interested in doing the trip for the Friday-Monday schedule, one parent is planning on going Friday-Sunday and a second Saturday-Monday. So--- I have my doubts whether one of those parents is up to doing much cycling. If that's the case, what would constitute two-deep leadership for day cycling trips? Would the second adult have to be driving along continuously, meeting the cycling party at designated points or what? Seattle Pioneer

The conflicts described in this thread are obviously unfortunate. It sounds as though the Scoutmaster feels threatoned by the events going on beyond his control. He may be concerned about liability or safety, or just be insecure with things happening with which he isn't familiar. Just as I'm sure you are familiar with Scouts who are fearful of swimming, or get homseick at camp, even Scoutmasters might find themselves fearful when placed in new situations. So I would suggest that you be helpful, friendly courteous and kind in dealing with the people and events you describe. It may be that the campout in question will remain cancelled, but the events that cancellation triggers might be used to come up with policies and procedures that will work well in the future. In short, don't quit. Use the Assistant Scoutmasters and Troop Committee Chair to help work out a good solution for the future. They may need to work with the Scoutmaster to understand his anxieties and concerns and come up with procedures that everyone can live with. Scoutmasters aren't perfect, and they make mistakes and errors of judgement. Aim to cut your Scoutmaster the same slack he may have cut you in the past! And congratulations! As you become an adult, you succeed in stretching Scouting and your adult leaders as well. It sounds as though they are struggling to adapt to that increasing maturity and self confidence. Perhaps that's a reason why Boy Scouts ends at age 18. Have you considered forming or joining a Venturing Crew? They ought to find such issues easier to deal with. Seattle Pioneer

Ooooh, Good idea Lynda J. You ARE prepared! Is the insurance forms you refer to that accidental injury protection that is optional and extra cost and available at rechartering (at least in our council)? I don't believe our troop paid for that, and perhaps that is something we should consider changing the next time we recharter. Comments on the utility/value of that insurance? Seattle Pioneer

Sturgeon posts that if obese Scouters were kicked out, half the volunteers would be gone. Firstly, I hope that is an exageration of the facts. Secondly, I don't see that anyone has proposed to kick anyone out. My basic idea would be to use the methods of Scouting to encourage and help motivate and support Scouters to keep themselves "physically strong" and "morally straight" (avoiding sloth and gluttony, perhaps). Personally, I wouldn't be any more eager to kick Scouters out than I would Scouts. But there are things we can do to encourage Scouters to obey the Scout law, and to avoid rationalizations with which we are prone to letting ourselves off the hook. My own experience is that the methods of Scouting work with Scouters just as they do with Scouts. How can the methods be used to address these kinds of problems? Seattle Pioneer

I'm picky about having sharp knives around the house, and mounted my sharpening stone on a custom mount to get good results. It's occurred to me that this might make a worthwhile fundraiser. I have seen 3" x 8" size sharpening stones selling for a dollar or two. I make a plywood base that's 12" x 14" or so from 3/4" plywood. Then I cut out two pieces of 3/4" thick plywood the same size as the sharpening stone. Glue the two small pieces of plywood together, then glue those two pieces to the larger board, and spray paint all the wood. Then glue some rubber gasket material to the bottom of the base to keep it from moving around, and finally glue the sharpening stone to the top. Now you can sharpen away without the stone moving around, and without your hands being impeded by bumping into whatever the stone is sitting upon. Works great, and really only takes a few minutes to assemble. In my imagination they'd be easy enough to sell with a decent knife sharpening demonstration, and you'd get $15-20 a hit. Comments are invited. Seattle Pioneer

Our Camporee staff encourages each troop to present a competition for the Scouts during the Camporee. Twenty to thirty minutes is suggested as a maximum time, and it's first come, first served ---you don't need to be able to cycle every patrol through your competition. Who has favorite events they'd like to suggest? I have two that I'm considering: 1) Map and compass. This might have several different parts, with patrols getting points for having a compass with them, being able to locate true north, being able to locate where the Camporee is being held on a map, and giving a good description of a route on how they will get home. The final element would take advantage of the fact that Mt Rainier National Park has a 90 mile long trail that goes entirely around the mountain. A map would be provided with the trail marked out. A picture of the mountain would be located someplace visible, along with a sign indicating that they are on the Wonderland Trail someplace in the park. The Scouts would then be asked to treat the picture as if it were the actual mountain to locate where they are on the trail. 2. My second favorite idea would be to give the patrols an opportunity to bake cinnamon rolls in a Dutch Oven, using hotcake mix, sugar and cinnamon. They would be given a simple recipe, bowl, a cup of Bisquick or hotcake mix and given directions to make a dough, roll it out using a rolling pin, sprinkle sugar and cinnamon on top, roll up the dough and slice it into rolls. They would then follow direction on baking it in a Dutch oven, leaving a Patrol member to monitor baking and returning for their treat in 20 minutes or so. Option 2 is probably a little too lengthy and complicated. I might offer the option during the second half of the day when the Scouts are free of competitions and have various activities they can choose to participate in. I'm big on encouraging Scouts to improve their cooking skills. Seattle Pioneer

Hey Packsaddle! Have to disagree with you on the age & appearance issue. I definitely looked a lot better after having lost 50 pounds, even though I was a few months older. Quite a few favorable reviews on that issue, as a matter of fact. And I'd have to say that even now I'm better off at age 55 and thirty pounds lighter than a year ago. After a few months of following that Weight Watchers discipline, all the blood tests in my annual physical came up way in the green, too. In any case, for me it's at least about TRYING to do the best with what you have. Long term, we'll all be dead. Until then, I have choices I can make that may lead to a better life ---pretty much what much of Scouting is all about, don't you think? Seattle Pioneer

So you went to the gym 3-4 times/week and you LOST 25 pounds. Then you quit and gained back thirty. But you seem to suggest that gaining it back was an Act of God? As I noted earlier, I put 20 pounds back on over the winter, but it wasn't an Act Of God, it as because I gave up the good habits that led to the weight loss in the first place. And my walking regiman is nine miles/day, 5-6 days/week, although I do tend to miss more during the winter months. I think you are correct that metabolism and exercise habits do tend to change with age, or at least they have with me. But that simply means you need to change or cut down on your food intake and make a point of keeping your exercise level up. That CAN be done for most people with sufficient motivation and discipline, but I'm not suggeting it's easy at all. It's a struggle for me every day now. But over the winter I wasn't stuggling with it, which accounted for regaining the weight lost. And I suggest that the basic test should be the question of are we doing our BEST as Scouters. If we can honestly answer yes to that question, then we are off the hook. Absent an affirmative answer to that, we ought to be struggling with the problem as best we can. That's my theory, anyway. Seattle Pioneer

The district is offering BALOO training this Saturday ---Cub Packs doing overnights need to have at least one BALOO trained adult. I'm Unit Commissioner for a Pack that has an overnight scheduled June 4-5th, and the Cubmaster is planning on attending too. So--- any comments on what to expect or bring along? Any dos/don't you've learned from your Cub Scout Overnights? Seattle Pioneer

Heh, heh! Actually, I kind of like the idea of approaching ACLU chapters with the ideas of chartering Scout units. Some elementary school principals around here refuse to permit Scouts in their schools ---other are warmly receptive. This is in the same school district. If I had the time, I'd make it a project to find what it takes to reverse that kind of negative policy by principals, too. Seattle Pioneer Hard head

So--- does anyone have any information as to how this sticky wicket played itself out?

What are suitable ways of dealing with Scouters who are obese and a poor example for Scouts because of that? What are the responsibilities of obese Scouters? Seattle Pioneer

It is confusing. I offered to transfer to a unit suffering some organizational distress, and the DE sent me to this Troop, where I was asked to be an ASM. When the troop rechartered, the TC chair reregistered me as a TC member. Then I was appointed a Unit Commissioner for the Scout Troop and a Cub Pack with organizational problems, the District Commissioner apparently not too concerned I was already registered with the unit. Yes, I think that's the best approach I've heard so far. It would begin to deal with the difficulties proactively rather than wait and then wind up disappointing the Scout. Thanks for the comments by everyone, they have been helpful in thinking through this problem. Seattle Pioneer

Good points --- but I'm registered as a Troop Committee member in the troop and function as an ASM, and work closely with the Scoutmaster, who shares similar concerns. I might add that I talked to the Scout at the troop meeting last night, and told him that the Cub Scouts were looking for a bugler at their campout. He said he would "think about it." I told him he'd need to bugle for the Troop meetings as practice. I also gave the boy's father the same information. He said his son wasn't interested in bugling at Camporee because he didn't want the responsibility of getting up at 6 Ayem to bugle, but he might be interested in bugling for the Cub Scouts. I'm considering suggesting that the Scoutmaster hold a Scoutmaster conference with this Scout, to discuss the importance of his taking leadership in the Troop, and pointing out opportunities that the Scout has to show that leadership. That would be a better "heads up" than having the Board of Review turn the Scout down for his "Life" rank. Still thinking things through...... Seattle Pioneer

Our district roundtable has a standing invitation for SPLs to attend. Few do, although it's common enough for Scouts getting approval for their Eagle Project to sit in for a while. The SPL for our troop recently asked to attend the Committee Meetings, which I thought and think is a good idea... for him. He's nearly 18, and a good leader. His ideas will probably be better than some of the adults. Like a lot of things, this might depend on the SPL involved. Some might contribute significantly to the Committee, others might not. In some cases, the SPL might contribute to the boy leadership of a troop, in others, Committee members might use the occasion to sell their own ideas on what the Scouts should be doing. It's a judgement call, in my view. Seattle Pioneer

Suppose a Scout is injured on an offcial Scout outing. You are unable to reach the parents at the phone number listed on the permissions slip, which gives Scouters authority to approve hospital medical care in the event of an injury. You take the Scout to the hospital, and sign the hospital forms approving medical care. Six months later, the hospital send you a bill for $24,855.19, the bill for the boy's care. As it happens, the parents don't have any health insurance coverage, so the hospital is turning to you to pay the bill, since you asked for it and approved it. Far fetched, or a real hazard? And any comments on the accident insurance available when rechartering? Seattle Pioneer

Heh, heh! Why don't we let the gay rights activists decide? They seem to classify the world as being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered -----or straight. They seem to have it figured out clearly enough! I should enter a discordent note here, however: I work with a Cub Pack where an adult volunteer identified himself to me and the Pack Committee Chair as an atheist and former Scout, and said he couldn't sign an adult application in good conscience. During the year, he has done a superb job as the defacto Pack Committee chair ---the registered Pack Committee Chair having stepped back and let him do the job. Personally, I'd like to find a moment when he might have a few doubts about the non-existance of God and be willing to sign the Scout application ---I'm told even the Pope is entitled to have a few doubts about God now and then. If so, perhaps athesist can have a few doubts about the non existance of God. At the Cub Scout campout, I'm thinking about having him read the first chapter or so of "The Jungle Book" to all the Cub Scouts after the campfire, and then hit him up to sign the app. Seattle Pioneer

It gets down to a question of to what extent government can use it's power to interfere with the right of freedom of association. The Supreme Court decision basically said government couldn't use anti discrimination laws to coerce the Scouts, and they may decide that government can't deny the Scouts access to parks, schools and government funding for the same reason. Why is it that the atheists and gay rights types favor "diversity" except when it comes to Scouting? Scouting IS diversity in this country on such issues. It's a pretty sick society (or at least some in that society) who want to wage campaigns of hatred against the Boy Scouts. The City of Seattle organizes and funds homosexual youth groups ---no protests by the left of that kind of program! Seattle Pioneer

I've been working with a troop the past nine months or so as ASM and Unit Commissioner. It's a small Troop with eight boys or so at present, and a good SPL who will be aging out of Scouting in another six months. One of the senior Scouts in the Troop is a 14 year old Star Scout who is significantly mentally retarded. His father is Troop Committee Chair, works actively with his son and the Troop, and is a fine man. I kept my distance from this boy for several months, observing him and how he intereacts with the Troop and the program. Up until January, he had a tendency to have some trouble controlling angry impulses, which could be frightening since he is a very big guy. Not violent ---quite. But they could be upsetting for the boys and even for me, since it could be hard to know how to react. Usually his father was around, and acted immedietely to take him aside and calm him down. On the plus side, I haven't seen that angry reaction since January, a big plus. He also has a stubborn streak, tendency to give up and stand around and not participate when it suits him. His father will coax him into doing work that needs to be done, and he will work with me and others when he's coaxed. But he generally prefers to sit around, and most of the boys simply permit that as the easiest and safest thing to do. He's Troop bugler, and he actually bugled pretty decently at the October Court of Honor ---very classy, and a great opportunity for him to provide leadership in the Troop. But he seems to have taken a vow of bugling silence since then. I could have gotten him a Camporee staff position as bugler if he had wanted to practice up for it, but after initially liking the idea, he gave it up as being too much work. Similarly, the Troop will be camping with a Cub Scout Troop in June, and they asked for a bugler for the flag ceremony.. I'm going to again ask him to practice and serve, but I doubt that he will agree to do so. Stubbornness--- he has his stubborn streaks. At the conclusion of a bicycle trip which his father was not on, he refused to sit in the front seat for a ride home with a parent, despite various threats of leaving him behind and such. He wanted to bicycle home, which we couldn't accept. Eventually the car was reorganized and he got his way. But when you are six foot plus and 200 pounds and flat refuse to do things (although this is rare), it might be a serious problem some time. He wants the opportunity to be a leader. On hikes, I've fed him details about plants and trees, which he's then been happy to repeat to younger scouts. When coached by his father, he helped teach a couple of boys how to tie a clove hitch recently. I've talked a fair amount about this boy with his father, and have greater confidence in delaing with him the past few months. His father isn't interested in coddling him, and aims to challenge him to learn and behave. I'm interested in ideas on how to do that. I'm concerned we are letting him off the hook of responsibility too easily. He will shortly be coming up for a Life Scout Board of Review. My inclination is to go over some of the incidents described in this post and say that he isn't providing the leadership and example he needs to qualify for advancement. We could then set some goals for him to achieve, and meet again in thirty days or so to review his progress toward those goals. If he were really to show us new habits, I'd consider approving his advancement after 90 days of good behavior, although six months might be better. Comments are solicited.

Nice in theory, but as pointed out by others on this thread, the Scout organization has all the discretion in deciding what to cover. And the web of rules surrounding Scouting is such that overlooking or neglecting them is easy enough to do ---indeed, they create a formula for creating liability standards more extensive than what ordinary civil law might require. So the real question is how does this work in practice? Does anyone know how litigation claims have been handled in situations they might be familiar with? Seattle Pioneer

Neat improvisation. I'll have to try something like that. I spent an afternoon teaching a patrol leader how to bake pizza in a Dutch Oven for our pre camporee camp, and then he got sick that weekend and couldn't go. I like the idea you present for improvising an oven. Seattle Pioneer