SeattlePioneer

Heh, heh! I like the idea of a nicotine patch! Or-- perhaps there should be a patch awarded to a Scouter who quits smoking. It could picture a cigarette with a rex "X" through it. Seattle Pioneer

The bony structure of your program should be your monthly theme, which can be such things as first aid, mmap and compass, knots and lashings, swimming, camping or other choices. If you are lucky, you have an annual plan with these themes already decided by the PLC. If not, it might be wise to call a PLC meeting to decide on the monthly themes, hich can be used as a basis for troop camping activities as well. That would also provide an element of common activities across your patrols, and make competitions betwween patrols easier to organize when you do have a troop meeting or camping trip. This would also make it easier to decide on activities for patrol meetings. If you choose map and compass or first aid, most patrols can works on tenderfoot through first class advancement requirements, while a Venturing Patrol might plan outings to be trained in CPR or be certified in a Red Cross First Aid course. Seattle Pioneer

Hello, Scout Nut! No, as a 55 year old bachelor, I have no children of my own. Seattle Pioneer

Thanks for the additional comments on the hot-dog-on-a-stick incident. Dan and at least one other person suggested using the SPL as a way to deal with this problem, rather than having the SM take the heavy handed approach of ripping the hot dog off. That's a good observation, and an option I hadn't considered. However, I still don't feel too bad about that incident. As I noted, I was SM for four or five years and almost never had to pay attention to what the Scouts were doing for meals. Even if that was an error of judgement I suppose we Scoutmasters are entitled to a mistake once in a while. Seattle Pioneer

Good recitation of problems, Scoutldr. I guess it's a good thing that Scouting only expects us to do our best, rather than holding us responsible for doing the right thing all the time. Seattle Pioneer Who fails often enough at doing things as well as he might like

Back on Page 2 of this discussion, I related that twenty years ago several days into a rowboat camping trip, I woke up to a campful of Boy Scouts too fatigued to make breakfast on their own initiative. Only the Patrol Leader had enough gumption to build a small fire and roast a hotdog for breakfast. As Scoutmaster, I responded to that by tossing the hotdog in the fire and directing the Patrol Leader to get his patrol busy cooking breakfast. He di and they did. They needed some leadership. If it had been a patrol member cooking the hot dog, I doubt if I'd have said anything to him ---he would have arguably been doing his best. But stand by while the Patrol Leader looks after himself at the expense of the rest of the boys in the patrol? No. The Patrol Leader needed to recognize that his patrol members were sitting around because they were hungry and because they needed leadership to get going. I continue to think this was a reasonable response to the situation. Seattle Pioneer

CNY Scouter is looking for ways to help promote the idea of using the patrol method, which needs support in the situation he describes. The best way to start doing that is to encourage competitions between patrols at troop meetings and on campouts. Competition is what creates a good deal of the fun in scouting, and competitions between patrols is a great way of motivating Scouts to participate and work together. A way to encourage that competition might be to buy a package of award ribbons at your Scout store. These usually come with a half dozen sets of 1st-3rd place ribbons in different colors, and can be awarded for any type of competition to the best patrol, which can hang the ribbon on their patrol flag. You can have several competitions during a troop meeting, and award a ribbon to the best parol overall. Competitions might include patrol attendance at the meeting, uniform inspection, scout skill competition and so on. Twenty years ago when I was Scoutmaster of a troop, the lines between patrols were fairly rigid, and boys only changed patrols infrequently. The troop I'm with now has to very porous patrols, with Scouts moving back and forth all the time. Using competition will tend to strengthen those boundaries between patrols, I would suppose. You might talk to the Scoutmaster about using ribbons as a way to spur competition, and offer to get them if he is willing to try it out. Seattle Pioneer

This past weekend was our district camporee, and it as an excellent example of this kind of event, well planned and packed with activities. I was really impressed by how it felt out the weaknesses in our troop, both among the Scouts and Scouters. Heh, heh! First of all, it proved to me that I'm getting old! Saturday night I was fatigued, and I spent a couple of days shaking off that fatigue and stiffness. I don't recall that even from last year's camporee. We found weaknesses in our adult leaders, particularly our Scoutmaster, who signed up to prepare dinner for our three adult leaders and then failed to allow himself time to do the job. Our Scouts had good points and weak points. They chose to take part in a Dutch Oven cooking contest in the afternoon, but didn't really plan adequately to bring the equipment they needed. Then they too didn't look at the schedule to plan how they were going to make dinner and still get to the awards ceremony and campfire. The result was that neither the Scouts nor the Scouters had dinner ready when it was time to eat. A Scouter wound up missing the awards and campfire in order to make dinner for both Scouters and Scouts. My own most satisfying contributions were in the competetive event for the Camporee organized by the Troop Scouters and a special event we organized to enrich the "free time" the Scouts had Saturday afternoon. After a good deal of discussion among the Scouters, we decided to offer lashing up and erecting a flagpole as our event for the Scouts to perform during the intra patrol competitions. This worked out very well. The Scouts lashed two eight foot poles and a six foot pole together with round lashings, tied a flag on and used clove hitches to tie three guy ropes on and then raise the flagpole and stake it out. A flag ceremony or opening ceremony was then performed, followed by a patrol cheer. Most Scouts seemed to think they had accomplished something by that time, and seemed to cheer with some heartfelt enthusiasm (Finally! We're Done!). I dote on cooking as a Scout activity, and Dutch Oven cooking in particular. During the Saturday afternoon free time, another Scouter and I set up a sign saying "Free Cinnamon rolls" and gave Scouts the opportunity to use bisquick or hotcake mix we supplied to mix, roll out and bake cinnamon rolls for their patrol. We must have had at least fifty boys cycle through that training, and it worked great! I worked with the boys on preparing the dough, and my Scouter partner trained the boys in doing the baking. It rained fairly hard Friday and Saturday night and Sunday morning, which tended to feel out the abundant weaknesses in raingear, too. Furthermore, inadequacies in meals tended to repeatedly result in boys who were run down because they hadn't eaten enough and often enough. We saw this among other Troops as well during the competitions ---boys who were crabby or unmotivated often due to a lack of sufficient food, I'm convinced. Anyway, it was an education. Seattle Pioneer

What are the relative advantages and disadvantages of the Girl Scout vs Boy Scout programs, if you are familiar with them? Should, or will, the two organizations merge? Seattle Pioneer

Bob White has a good critique of the idea of an adult patrol. But he suggests that a group of adults can plan and coordinate their activities informally by just observing what is needed and "pitching in." While I've seen that work, I'm seeing it fail in the Troop I'm a part of now, which appears to need more formal organization of adults to get things done. And as I've been encouraging it, I've promoted the idea of the Troop Committee Chair as being the "Patrol Leader" of the adult Patrol. When I first suggested the idea, the CC said, "no one has elected me to be Patrol Leader," to which I suggested that as CC he was pretty much the de jure leader of the adult Scouters. Unfortunately, in our Troop, activities tend to be underplanned and planned too late. This begins with the Scoutmaster, who isn't capable of doing much advance planning himself and doesn't do much to encourage or train the Scouts in such skills either. For these reasons, more formal orgainzation seems to be necessary or we adults will tend to go hungry on camping trips. Seattle Pioneer

Well Semper, I'm going to suppose that's a serious question rather than a joke. Silverbacks are adult gorillas ---hence the idea of associating "Silverbacks" with the adult Scouter Patrol. Also, most of the adult Scouters are in their forties or fifties, and tending to be silvery in the hair department, assuming they are lucky enough to have much hair. The Silverback name was contibuted by the Troop Committee chair, and I liked it immedietely. Howwever, when I was typing up the roster a few days later, I had to notice that we have some lady Scouters as well, and strictly speaking, Silverbacks are adult MALE gorillas. That gives me pause. Do you think we should choose another name in the interests of having a name that both male and female Scouters can identify with? Lady Scouters might not object, but might still find such a name offensive. Opinions on that issue are solicited. Seattle Pioneer

That's the right answer, Scout. I had the opposite surprise when I was asked to conduct a PLC, and then only two 14 year old star scouts showed up. I supposed they'd be interested in some ambitious canoeing or backpacking trip, but instead they said they'd like to do a four or five day bicycle camping trip ----but only if it didn't involve too much bicycling! So the plan is to do a four day car camping style camping trip with day trips by bicycle. This will be on Lopez Island in Washington State's San Juan Islands, accessable only by ferry. Should be fun. If interested, you can Google Lopex Island or Odlin County Park to get an idea of the lay of the land. Seattle Pioneer

Unfortunately, Eamonn accurately describes many of the reasons why recruiting Boy Scouts is difficult. According to our DE, 80% of Boy Scouts come from Cub Scout crossovers. So support your Cub Scout Pack and get to know the Webelos Den Leader. If you don't have a feeder Pack, find one or start one. Peer to peer recruiting is powerful, if you can motivate your Scouts. Devise a program to do that. Beyond that, according to our DE, it requires an AVERAGE of six invitations before a boy will attend a new Troop meeting. So you need to devise a way to follow up repeatedly to convert a name into a new Scout. That means you need to get the name, address and age of boys of Scouting age, and follow up repeatedly. Last year, the best method of getting names turned out to be the carnival held by a local elementary school PTA. I devised and conducted a Stationary Bicycle Race, timing how long it took competetors to cycle 1/2 mile on the odometer. Of course, in order to keep track of winners, I needed to get the name, address, phone number and age of each competetor (gotcha!). I then worked those names over and over, taking little awards for pariticipating to the boys home in person (and in uniform) and returning repeatedly with invitations to Troop meetings and campouts. Even then, it was tough. Last year I did that carnival by myself and got about forty names of boys. That ran me ragged! This year, our troop is (1) camping with the Cub Scout Pack overnight June 4 & 5th and having the Webelos crossovers camp as a new boy patrol as Boy Scouts. (2) Doing the elementary school carnival as a troop activity June 11th. Seattle Pioneer Seattle Pioneer

Wow. I sure don't agree with the idea that gifts should be expected. If the Eagle Court of Honor is so expected that gifts of cash are looked for, it's too elaborate, in my view. If someone wants to provide a card or special photo as a memento, I think that's fine. But in general, invited guests should be expected to RSVP when asked and show up. That's it! Seattle Pioneer

Badge Magic works like a charm for me. I've repeatedly wwashed my uniform and have had no problems with patches loosening up. Just today I applied some solveny to change a badge of office, and the old badge peeled off easily like a band aid. Works great for this bachelor. Seattle Pioneer

Hey Backpacker! I'm uninformed. What is going on in Britain and Canada? When I was doing a yardsign campaign last fall to recruit new Scouts, 90% of the strangers I doorbelled permitted me to post a large yardsign in their front yard promoting Scouting. That's rather amazing, in my view. There is a large reservoir of good will towards Scouting that tends to be ignored, from what I see. And a mouthy minority that seems to get all the attention with a hate campaign directed against Scouting. Seattle Pioneer

I appreciate the reassurance that using an adult patrol to model good scouting practices is a, well --- a good scouting practice. So I'm continueing to promote that concept. A couple of weeks ago, I posted signup for the adult "Silverback" Patrol for the Camporee this weekend, along with signups for the duty roster and menues people would cook. I was first to sign up, sign up for a meal and post the menue. Then last week, the SM signed up for a meal and posted his menue. This week, the remaining Silverbacks completed the signup. Hopefully, that will establish the practice, and then perhaps the Scouts will take the hint that such things can be done easily and simply. I spent part of today making a "Silverback" patrol flag. Here's the line drawing I found, transferring the design to some cloth using carbon paper and then outlining it with a permanent marker. Nothing fancy, but perhaps it will reinforce the idea of a separate adult patrol. http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/apes/gorilla/gorillasimple.shtml I also found a small stuffed gorilla at a thrifts shop. When I find a staff for the flag, I'll find a way to tie our mascot on the staff in some way. Seattle Pioneer Taking a chance on being seen as too silly

When I was Scoutmaster twenty odd years ago, I was fortunate to never have to worry about cooking. The boys taught each other, and planned out good meals they enjoyed. They planned the meals, purchased food and split up the costs among themselves. I was truly blessed. Well, there was one exception. On a rowboat camping trip in Washington State's San Juan Islands, the Scouts were tired and uninterested in the work of cooking breakfast. Only the patrol leader had any gumption at all --- he was heating a hot dog on a stick over a fire when I saw him! Well, enough was enough. I tossed the hot dog in the fire and told him to get breakfast ready. He did, and the Scouts perked right up once they got some food in them. Turned out to be a good object lesson. The troop I joined a year ago had problems. The adult leaders LIKED cooking, and they cooked for the Scouts. They had a camp trip they did year after year, and one ASM recalled how he took great pride as a Tenderfoot Scout having great success cooking breakfast for his patrol. I made the comment that no boys in the troop would ever repeat THAT experience. An ASM cooked all the meals on their 50 miler canoe trips too, "assisted" by the Scouts, who were responsible for very little other than paddling. I left that Troop, and cooking was one important reason why. The Troop I'm with now is starting to come around on cooking. The boys are working every camping trip at learning skills, and will be competing in the Camporee Dutch Oven competition this weekend. I've been working at separating the adults from the boys. I had worked to delegate planning for adult cooking to an ASM, who then decided the adults should eat with the Scouts without my hearing about this. The boys might not have heard about it either ---they didn't have enough food for everyone and it caused problems, including one boy whose blood sugar dropped way down after breakfast from lack of enough food. This was during our first aid class, so he as an object lesson in observing Scouts, diagnosing and treating problems. Twenty minutes after eating an orange, he and the other Scouts were impressed by the change some food produced. For Camporee, the adult "Silverback" Patrol had signups to cook meals and meal plans posted, so I'm confident that the adults wont be a part of the problem for the Scouts this weekend. They will have to make their own! I'll have to report back next week on the results after the Camporee. Seattle Pioneer

Taking into consideration demographics, changes in values, economic and labor force issues and trends and whatever you think is likely to happen in the future, what do you see as the future of Scouting in the United States? Seattle Pioneer

When I was 32 or 33 and a Scoutmaster, I decided I wanted to do something at summercamp that would show that adults have to struggle to achieve things, just as do boys. I settled on the camp's mile swim program, which involved several conditioning swims and then a chance to swim the mile and earn the mile swim patch. This was a patch that adults as well as Scouts could earn. When I went down for the first day's practice swim, about 1/3 of the boys in the troop were right there beside me, choosing to do the same thing. I completed the mile swim, and still sport the patch on my swim suit. Several Scouts completed it as well, and several weren't able to complete it ---that year, anyway. That ability to lead by example is one of the definite advantages of having a young Scoutmaster. Now, at age 55, I'm AMAZED at how much harder the ground has gotten in the past twenty years when sleeping in a tent! I had to give up running 2-3 years ago due to plantars fascitis and heel spurs. I have a shoulder injury which impairs my swimming and ability to swing an axe. I'll be going to Camporee with the Troop this weekend, and plan to lead a four day bicycle camping trip in June, although the boys aren't ambitious bicyclers ---not yet anyway. One thing I don't want to do is to limit what the Scouts do to fit what I can do. The Scoutmaster is in his late forties, and the Assistant Scoutmasters are older than he is. So--- how should advancing age and physical limitations govern your participation in the Scouting outdoor program? Obviously, there are plenty of other ways to help support Scouting. When is it time for a Scouter to bow out of the Scouting outdoor program? And will that departure by the aging baby boomer generation create a hole that will be a problem for Scouting to fill? Seattle Pioneer

I'm sure your observations on the importance of principals is well taken, Packsaddle. The Cub Pack for which I'm Unit Commissioner is chartered by the PTA. I've joined the PTA and fairly regularly attend the PTA meetings, in uniform. The principal in this elementary school is warmly supportive of the Cub Pack, and has permitted me to distribute flyers to families using the school distribution system and hand out stickers and invitations to Scout nights at lunch. After collapsing at the beginning of the year, the Pack is now thriving, with 35 odd boys and growing. The Principal and PTA will now get to benefit from their support of Scouting. Next year, the Pack will be running a spaghetti dinner conducted the night of the open house. We'll have the Scouts and a few adults there in uniform, and should have ample Scout parents there to help conduct this event. I'm expecting we will have a table for joining Cub Scouts, too. Last year, this event was nearly cancelled for lack of volunteers. The Principal invites the Cub Scouts to do a flag ceremony for their Veterans Day assembly. And I'll be soliciting ideas from the principal and PTA on service projects the Pack can do during the upcoming school year. In my imagination, I see the elementary school principals sitting around having coffee, and complaining about the lack of student and parent help to the school.. The principal of the school I'm involved with then says, "Well, have you been supporting your Cub Scout Pack? Not only are those boys a cut or two above average themselves, but they and their parents are a big help around the school." Perhaps this is more involvement by a UC than is strictly recommended --- but I attend all the Pack Committee meetings and get permission for the things I do. Seattle Pioneer

Very good ideas there, Packsaddle. As an added bonus, if the sag wagon keeps the bicycling adult in view, you solve the two-deep leadership problem I was struggling with. As I noted earlier, our Scouts aren't aiming at doing an ambitious amount of cycling. They wanted to do a four day bicycle trip that didn't involve a lot of cycling! My solution to that is a trip to Lopez Island, in Washington State's San Juan Islands. This is a rural island, accessable only by ferry boat. It has a lovely county park and a wonderful state park, and nice cycling destinations including the shopping center of Lopez Village which also has a nice library. Those interested are invited to Google "Lopez Island" or "Odlin County Park" to get an idea of what this trip will be like. Seattle Pioneer

Let's face it. Quite a few boys love sports and will choose sports over Scouting. If you accept that fact, maybe you can make it work to your advantage. I've given some thought to trying to recruit a whole youth sports team for Scouting. Take the Troop out to the games one of the Scouts play in ---be the cheerleaders for the game, and offer the players Dutch Oven cobbler and such as a treat when the game is over, along with an invitation to join the Troop when the season is over or at some other suitable time. I have no idea whether that would work. Perhaps it's something better done by a Cub Scout Pack. I throw it out as a possible avenue of approach to boys who like sports. Seattle Pioneer

Twenty-odd years ago, when I was a Scoutmaster, the district had a DE who must have weighed in at more than 400 pounds. He had a huge wasteline, although I never recall him huffing and puffing to get around. I heard comments and stories that the council ragged on him big time to lose weight in order to improve his image to boys. Was the council wrong to do that, supposing it was true? Seattle Pioneer

Thank you, Terry, for taking my Bright Idea seriously. Your comments illustrate that bright ideas are usually pretty cheap, while implementing them is usually difficult. As a Scouter, I'd LOVE to be able to reply to posts by Scouts ---but that would rapidly defeat the whole purpose of having a Scout thread, I'd suppose. If Scouters were permitted to read a Scout forum, I'd suppose that the result would be a parallell discussion on a Scouter thread, to talk about the issues being raised. That might be OK. If you wanted to avoid that kind of parallel discussion, you probably have to block Scouters from reading the Scout posts. And to Bob White--- using the word "deserve" was just a turn of phrase, not intending to be critical of anyone's motives. Pardon me for a poor choice of words. Seattle Pioneer