SeattlePioneer

Hey JR56--- I know that I repeat a new dish or recipe several times ---often many times, before I'm satisfied that I have developed a method and experience to do it easily, reliably, and in a way I enjoy. And if I could only do it once/year, I'd forget much of what I'd already learned about preparing it. Heh, heh! Even if the PLC adopted such a rule, why do I smell adults as the reason it was brought up and adopted? Well, perhaps I'm imagining things. And perhaps it works better than I imagine. How DOES this rule work in practice? It seems to me that Scouts would perpetually be struggling with new recipes. Am I wrong with that supposition? Seattle Pioneer

I agree with Semper. As Committee Chair, you have authority to appoint, and fire, the Scoutmaster and any Assistant Scoutmasters. If changes in the program needed to be made, you should have been confronting that fact while you had an active commmittee to support you. With that committee behind you, you would have been in a good position to talk turkey to the SM and get the changes you needed, hopefully without firing anyone. Now, you are in a weak bargaining position. I'd still have the chat, though. You need to reach an agreement on whether you can live with the SM or prefer to live without he and his assistantts, and what kinds of co-operation you need. You might also check with the rest of your team that has left and find out what it would take to get them to sign on again. I doubt that your district is going to help you out much doing the basic repsonsibilities of your troop. The person to ask for any help would be you Unit Commissioner, if you have one. He should be willing to talk with you about your organizational conflicts anyway. Seattle Pioneer

You have lots of good questions. While I could answer some of them, I'm not really an expert on details of the Wolf program. I would encourage you to participate in training for your position of Den Leader and earn the "trained" patch I hope you've seen other adult leaders wearing. Also, see if your council has a fall Pow Wow, which gives Den Leaders and others a wealth of program ideas I'm sure you'd find useful. In addition, I'd encourage you to attend your District's monthly Cub Scout Roundtable, which also offers training and program ideas in how to run the Cub Scout program well. Check with your Cubmaster or Pack Committtee chair about these programs, or check your district webpage for information. In the view of most experienced Scouters, getting these kinds of training is the best way to learn how to conduct a gret program. Good luck!

Wait until Michael Moore hears about this.... Seattle Pioneer

Has your unit had occasion to cancel outings or limit activities because of rain in the past year? How adequate is the rain gear Scouts and adult leaders bring on activities? Do they have the presence of mind and discipline to USE raingear properly before they get wet? What raingear do you want to see brought on outings, and how do you evaluate the limitations of that gear? What about hats/hoods? Where do you point Scouts to get raingear? Do you encourage Scouts to check out thrift shops for rain gear? What about rain tarps? Are boys skilled in setting up tarp shelters, and do they set up good shelters when conditions call for it? Tents OUGHT to be adequate! Are they, and are they properly staked out and set up to maximize the effectiveness of their design? Seattle Pioneer Where a duck swam in a mud puddle during Camporee last weekend.

Hey Eagle 73! What's this "rained out" business? At our Camporee last weekend, I literally saw a duck swimming in a mud puddle in the parade ground! Scouting went on! Seattle Pioneer Often rain challenged, but never rain defeated

This is an interesting thread, because it gets into the issue of how well Scouts have really learned Scouts skills and their real capacity for planning and leadership. I suspect it's quite common for adults to do much of the planning on fifty milers and such. Scouts may wind up supporting and working with adults, but that's quite different, VERY different, than Scouts doing all the research and planning themselves. I suspect that's relatively rare. From what I see, adults often push Scouts to do ambitious trips which the Scouts really can't plan and organize themselves. Adults will research routes, guidebooks and such, or rely on canned programs such as those offered by Philmont. I'm guilty of this myself, although I aim to limit myself and provide the Scouts with opportunities to keep expanding their skills and experience. I visited a Troop meeting where Scouts were planning their 50 miler for the summer. My adult leader brother had picked out a trip and supplied maps and trail guides. The Scouts were expected to plan their daily routes and the mileage they would backpack and canoe. I suspect this kind of assistance is pretty common, but until Scouts can do the whole job, they are still dependent on adults to be able to do these kinds of trips. Who wants to tell me that their PLC reseraches and decides on routes, transporatation, food, funding, equipment, routefinding and such by themselves? I'll be impressed. By contrast, there are Scouts who learn those skills, and rather quickly outstrip their adult leaders, becoming highly skilled climbers capable of doing and going just about anyplace. Jim Whittaker, the first American to climb Mt Everest was one such Scout, as was Fred Beckey who pioneered many climbing routes in Washington's Cascade Mountains and wrote a number of widely used climbing guides. Seattle Pioneer

There's no limitation that excludes pools from the requirements of the safe swim defense. When we went to this well run, pool run by the Seattle Parks Department, I mentally ran through the safe swim defense requirements. I'm trained, and the pool provided trained lookouts and lifeguards, so that was covered. First class and higher Scouts had all been qualified as swimmers at some point. I didn't make a point of retesting them. I hadn't been tested, so I took the first class swim test with the SPL given the opportunity to review my performance as an adult. I identified one non swimmer, who worked on floating and basic skills with the Scoutmaster, and later practiced the reaching & throwing Second class lifesaving skills. The depth of the water was marked out, and no underwater obsttructions. I tested two junior Scouts who passed the Second Class requirements as beginners. They were strong enough and confident enough that I didn't make an effort to restrict them from swimming in the deeper parts of the pool or using the diving board ---which compromised the SSD standards in a way that didn't offend me. We didn't make a point of using the buddy system. Several people, including myself and the SPL were swimming without buddies. This compromised the SSD but the high level of supervision caused me not to worry about it. The two beginners are close friends who stick together like glue. We didn't have permission slips for this activity nor did we have medical histories for this activity. No trip permit was filed. So there was room for improvement. The most important things neglected in my view were obtaining permission slips and filing a trip permit. If we'd had a permission slip it would have included a standard inquiry about a Scout's health. Seattle Pioneer

I stand corrected on the spelling there, Zippie. But I think you need to watch your punctuation: GRRRROOOOOOWWWWWWWWWL!!! Pedantically, Seattle Pioneer

I'll again suggest that I don't see GPS skills as being required through First Class. But it might well be appropriate as a separate Merit Badge, or as a requirement for certain Merit Badges such as Hiking, Canoeing, Rowing, Motor Boat and such. And thanks to kenk for his exposition on using UTM coordinates. I'll have to study up on his post and references in more detail. Seattle Pioneer

Do you have a long sword and know how to use it? Seattle Pioneer

Ideally, First Class Scouts and above sign off the requirements for Scouts through and including First Class. They would also teach Scouting skills to junior boys, test them and sign off those requirements. Unfortunately, this theory doesn't always work. There may not be any First Class scouts in a troop, or they may be unable or unwilling to do the teaching. When that happens, compromises may be needed, and adult leaders may need to teach and sign off requirements in order to keep the program functioning. Seattle Pioneer

Oooooooow! Getting your Webelos Scouts camping would be a good place to START! And working with the Troop(s) in your area is also an excellent idea. But please don't abandon the idea of encouraging camping by your Pack. That's a terrific activity that will do a lot to build the Pack and keep boys in Scouting! I hope you find a way to sell your Pack Committee on the importance of adding camping adventures to their programs. Seattle Pioneer

Thanks for your reply and comments, ehcalum. I also have and carry a Sylva Ranger compass, but I don't consider it to be a lensatic compass, although it has some of the features of what I understand to be a lensatic style compass (the improved sighting system that allows you to view the compass card and your object simultaneously using the mirror). As I understand it, a lensatic compass has the compass card floating and turning rather than just a needle. The sighting system commonly uses a magnifying lens to allow more careful observation of the bearing while viewing your object at the same time. By this definition, a Sylva Ranger style compass is an orienteering compass rather than a lensatic compass, since it has a needle rather than a floating card and no magnifying feature. I'm not trying to be pedantic, merely to keep the styles of compasses and their features clear for purposes of discussion. In my backpacking and climbing days, I carried only a Sylva Ranger, whhich best met my needs for those purposes. For Scouting, I carry a variety of compasses for different purposes. I now use a basic orienteering compass most of the time, since it's inexpensive and I want to encourage Scouts to use a good, inexpensive compass which will meet their needs. The Sylva Ranger is overkill by that criteria, in my view. I do give Scouts the opportunity to see and use the different types of compasses I carry, so they'll understand the different types and the advantages and disadvantages of each. Seattle Pioneer

While I find Bob White fairly commonly to be on the crusty side when he posts, I find this to be a good checklist for purposes of discussion. I'm printing it out and I think I'll distribute copies to those attending the next Troop Committee meeting. Seattle Pioneer

I note in the "GPS - A Scouting Skill" thread that schleining says that his troop uses lensatic compasses, which surprises me. I encourage Scouts to outfit themselves with an inexpensive orienteering style compass if they ask, which can be had at Walmart for about $6.00. A conventional compass with a swinging needle above a compass dial will work OK, even a toy compass. Of course it lacks the advantages of the orienteering style compass, but those aren't essential for hiking and camping. A lensatic compass has a sighting system and magnifying glass that allows improved accuracy in taking bearings, and is/was commonly used by the military. But while it gives better accuracy in taking a bearing, it, too, lacks the advantages of an orienteering style compass. And those advantages are far more useful for Scouting purposes than more accurate bearings, in my experience. That said, I carry a Suunto compass that has a lensatic style dial combined with a magnifying system that gives more accurate bearings than the common run of lensatic compasses provides. I find this useful on the relatively infrequent cases when improved accuracey is important, such as laying out compass courses or providing an authoritative bearing against which skill with using conventional compasses can be checked. I figure I can measure within .25 degrees with my Suunto compass. So I'm interested in why Schleining apparently prefers to use lensatic compasses to orienteering compasses in scouting. And I invite other to discuss their preferences in compasses for Scouting. Seattle Pioneer

I have a GPS receiver, and use it when there is a reason to do so. But it's rare that I find such a reason. A conventional map and compass serves most of the time, just as I use a map alone and only rarely need to break out a compass. Finding my way through a channel in a fog bank in my boat has me using the GPS, so does finding my way across a fogbound glacier. Fog and using a GPS seem to go together for me! I break out the GPS receiver traveling to and from camps, and quiz the boys to keep track of where we are on a map. The gee whiz factor of the GPS is motivating in these circumstances. My objection to integrating the GPS into the program is 1) expense 2) delicacy and unreliability (batteries) and (3) it's really rarely needed as I describe above. By far the most important skill to learn is to accurately and easily read maps. A compass can be a useful supplement under suitable conditions, and is cheap to buy and reliable if used properly. So I don't see a compelling reason to add GPS to the list of Scout skills at least through First Class. There is a better argument for GPS familiarity and use on high adventure type outings. That said, I'm planning to use my GPS receiver for practice search and rescue exercises on an upcoming campout. As I envision it, a deseperate mother would come to the troop campsite to report that two of her triplets are missing, and requesting aid in finding them. One patrol would search for one missing infant with locations specified on a map, while a second patrol might have a GPS location to find and search for the missing infant, which would have a strong resemblance to a bag of potato chips! Seattle Pioneer

Sounds like you have a tough row to hoe, CNY Scouter. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to concentrate on recruiting only Tiger Cubs or Wolf level Scouts, and grow the pack year by year until it's rebuilt. That way, you can work to establish an excellent program for one den, which may be a more manageable goal. Another possibility might be to pair up with another active Cub Pack, organizing your own dens but taking advantage of the Pack program and organization. When you have your Dens up and running with good leadership, you could charter yourselves as a separate pack again. Good luck! Seattle Pioneer

Hello, kittle! You have the right idea by promoting the idea of Cub Scout camping. Boys very often LOVE to go camping, and camping provides an abundance of time to learn Cub Scouting skills, do advancement activities and live and work together as Cub Scouts and Cub Scout parents. But it sounds like you are starting from scratch in your knowledge of rules for Cub Scout Camping and perhaps camping skills too. A good place to start would be to investigate your district and council programs for Cub Scout camping. These are camping programs organized especially for Cub Scouts that have a lot of activities and structure built into them which make it easy for those new to Cub Scout camping to get started and have a great time. For example, in my district, there is a three day Cub Scout Daycamp during the summer, a resident Cub Scout Camp at which Cub Scouts do three or four nights of camping with a parent with lots of structured activities during the day and meals provided. There is even a special "Mom and Me" overnight camp that is specially designed for Cubs and their moms! If you wish, you can discuss these camping opportunities with other parents in your den or pack and plan to attend one of them as a group, which will give the parents and Cub Scouts the opportunity to work and play together. A good way to become informed about these opportunities is to attend your Cub Scout Roundtable, which will probably have handouts on these camps, and opportunities to talk about them with the Roundtable staff. Your Cub Master or Cub Pack Committee Chair should be able to give you the date, time and location of the monthly Roundtable, and they ought to know about these camping opportunities as well if they are sharp. There is also Family Camping, Recreational family camping at Scout Camps and Pack Overnighters, described in the Guide to Safe Scouting under Section III Camping. Seattle Pioneer

Heh, heh! Groooooowl! I love it! I really don't have much experience with Cub Den activities, so don't consider these comments authoritative. I'd have a bias towards doing activities that take advantage of summer weather and the outdoors. The Cub Pack for which I'm UC did a day hike a month ago, and I met them at a city park with a firebuilding competition ready to be performed (boys raced to build a fire to pop a balloon) and then they roasted hot dogs on the fire they built. Lots of fun, and these activitie met requirements for the WEBELOS Outdoor badge. Or do a day camp and set up tents and make lunch. Or go swimming at a nearby pool. It's easy to lose Cub Scouts over the summer, so I think you are making a great effort to keep your Den active. I hope you will post the activities you conduct this summer. I'd like to hear how they work out. Seattle Pioneer

Well, I attended the Baloo training as described in the opening post as did two Cub Pack Committee members. The next day, the Pack Committee met to plan the overnight June 4th and 5th, and we'll be meeting again Sunday to finish our planning. I'm Unit Commissioner for the Pack and a nearby Scout Troop. I've been working to get the Cub Pack and Troop to work together this year with a good deal of success, and the Troop will be camping with the Cub Pack, with the 2nd year Webelos camping overnight as a New Scout Patrol with the Troop after the crossover. The Troop will also be doing the flag ceremoney, assisting Cubs Scouts making foil pizzas for dinner, and cooking breakfast for the Pack Sunday morning. I do have one major disappointment. The District is willing to do training of parents at the overnight, but the Pack Commmittee doesn't want to corral the parents for training, or to put pressure on parents to take on leadership positions in the Pack that BADLY need to be filled. The Pack committee optimistically sent out an e-mail inviting parents to come to the last Pack meeting to help plan the overnight, but NO ONE showed up. The three pack leaders (and I) are doing way too much. But they wont take the steps needed to get additional help. They have a GREAT program now, but it's bound to have big problems before long unless they get help to run it. Those who object to a UC taking an active role in a unit to which they are assigned can be reasssured --- I will be backing off if the Pack Committee wants to let parents off the hook. If they think they can do everything, they are welcome to give it a try without me. Seattle Pioneer

I'd certainly prefer to have Scouts signing off requirements. But there would be precious little advancement occurring if I waited around for that to happen. As an example, the troop had a swim at a pool Tuesday. I brought rope, a life preserver and a pioneering pole and instructed and tested several Scouts in the Second class reaching and throwing lifesaving methods. I tested several Scouts on Second Class swim requirements, and myself on the First Class swim requirements, since I'm new to the troop and wanted to see if I could manage with a shoulder injury. Absent that kind of initiative, everyone would have had fun splashing around in the pool, instead of having fund learning and advancing. Sometimes I'll wait weeks after seeing Scouts meet advancement requirements before I get around to actually signing them off. The Scouts don't take the initiative to do that themselves as a rule. I'm satisfied that if I don't take the initiative, not much advancement is going to take place outside of summer camp for most of the Scouts. I'll repeat my question: how do you motivate your Scouts to take the initiative to get requirements signed off, and how are you motivating older Scouts to teach and sign off requirements. It's just not happening in the Troop I'm working with. Seattle Pioneer

At present, I am a Troop Committee member in a small troop of about eight Scouts. The Scoutmaster has encouraged me to sign off advancement requirements, which I do. On camping trips, troop meetings and such, I observe when Scouts complete various requirements, and then make a point of signing off their Scout handbooks when they are available. However, it's rare for other Scouts or registered leaders to take the initiative to sign off requirements, except that the Committee Chair works with and often signs off requirements for his son ---meeting standards in a reasonable way, from what I see. My question is suggestions on how to get other adult leaders and Scouts more active in testing and signing off requirements. We have three Star Scouts and the SPL is a Life Scout. Last night we did a swim at a nearby pool, and the two Star Scouts who were there played by themselves (I scarcely saw them). The SM worked teaching a non swimmer, and I worked at teaching Scouts the Second Class rescue methods (reaching, throwing and such) and testing a couple of Scouts on Second Class Swim requirements and such. Since this was the first swim I've done with this Troop, I asked the SPL to give me the First Class Swim Test, which was particularly important to me because I have a somewhat injured shoulder that makes swimming somewhat difficult. After he agreed to test me, I completed the test to my satisfaction, only to find that the SPL hadn't bothered to pay attention. Testing and signing off requirements takes time and is a job, and one that needs to be done competently. So --- what methods do you use to motivate (1) Scouts and (2) adult leaders to participate in this Scouting function? Seattle Pioneer

This is an interesting discussion. There are three boys in the Troop wwhere I serve as a Troop Committee Member where the issue of "actively serving" in a Scout office might reasonably prevent advancement from Star to Life Scout. Two Scouts are very active in sports, which impairs their ability to function in their offices as Patrol Leader and Assistant Patrol leader. Indeed, their patrols have dissolved for all practical purposes, with the remaining boys going into our remaining patrol. Occasionally, these two scouts show up for an activity or campout, such as our swim last night, where they played with each other but made no effort to help teach other boys or test them in swimming advancement requirements. These aren't troop offices the SPL can take away from them. What should the Scoutmaster do and when should he do it, since they appear only infrequently? One boy's father is ASM, and can be very helpful with the program, but he coaches sports and also participates sporadically since January or so. The third boy is significantly mentally retarded, but still able to do Scouting reasonably well. He is the Troop Bugler, but he hasn't bugled for the troop since a Court of Honor in October. In an effort to counsel him and offer him opportunities, I offered him the opoortunity to be Staff Bugler for Camporee and Bugler for our upcoming campout with a Cub Scout Pack, but he refused those opportunities as being too much work, having to get up too early, and just not willing to do the practice needed to demonstrate his skills. My requests that he bugle at Troop meetings have produced no bugling. I joked with him that he is a Troop Bugler who has apparently taken a Vow of Silence! In addition, he mostly just stands around when work need to be done, if he can get away with it. He will work if an adult coaches and directs him, but tends to quit and stand around as soon as he gets the chance. As a senior Scout, my theory is that he should be providing the coaching to younger boys who need training and motivation to do needed work. His father is Committee Chair, and works with him a lot, including working with him to get him to work, which I have done as well. These are things which don't appear to be especially related to his retardation (according to his father and my own observations). He just tends to be somewhat lazy and has discovered he can often get out of work. So in this case, he HAS received coaching and training from me and from his father, repeatedly. The Scoutmaster didn't have a very productive Scoutmaster conference when this boy received his Star Scout award a year ago (he's 14), getting mostly monosyllables to questions from the SM. I've suggested that the SM hold another SM Conference to discuss these issues with the boy, issues which the SM has said concern him as well. But he hasn't done so. While I'm registered as TC, I function as an ASM as well in this small Troop. I've made a definite effort to counsel and guide the Bugler, but have had little contact with the other two Scouts since January. I know these issues concern the SM, because we've talked about it. But he hasn't taken any action to address these issues. Any comments on what I might do? Any suggestions on what actions the Scoutmaster might choose to take to address these issues? Seattle Pioneer

In place of a regular troop meeting, we went swimming at a nearby pool last night. That was a good, fun activity following a strenuous Camporee over the weekend. We tested those able to pass or getting near to passing second class and first class swim reuqirements. Worked with non swimmers who needed encouragement to learn to float. Practiced the line, reaching and throwing rescues of the second class requirements, which boys, even the non swimmers, could participate in. And since the reaching and throwing exercises were a little bit showy, they attracted other boys interested in trying it out, including one boy interested in joining the troop. Finally, I began towing boys around the shallow end of the pool, which predictably attracted a bunch of new kids interested in being towed around as well. Only an hour! Time was too short! How often do other Troops go swimming? Any favorite games or activities? Seattle Pioneer