SeattlePioneer

I've been thinking about ways of dealing with a bunch of new Cub Scouts who need to complete the Bobcat requirements. One idea that's occurred to me would be having boys from all the dens run through the requirements at a night for den meetings, function as a sort of "Bobcat university." Parents would then be encouraged to fill in and sign off requireents, with the expectation that the "class" would "graduate" at the next Pack meeting. This might have the added benefit of encouraging parents to get involved in signing off requirements at the beginning of the year. Does this sound like a useful idea? And does your Pack and Dens have good ways of working this into the program? Seattle Pioneer

The usual Scout recommendations for almost anything usually begin with planning. Recruiting new Cub Scouts is no different. Right about now is when the Cub Pack Committee should be considering how many new Cub Scouts they wish to recruit in the fall, and what grade levels need to be empasized in recruiting. This means you should have a number or numbers written down as a goal your expect to achieve. Secondly, you need to identify the adults who would be the best people to conduct a recruiting campaign. You may need one person who is experienced at this task, and a couple of people who are new to recruiting and can be the experts next year. Again, you are planning how to do recruiting not just this fall, but for the next couple of years. I'd be interested to hear from people on whether they have done these steps yet, or plan to do them soon. There seems to be a BIG gap between packs who are vastly succesful in recruiting new Scouts, and those who are struggling, often desperately. I'm guessing that many of the succesful packs do these things already, and many of those struggling would be much better off if than began this planning process now. Seattle Pioneer

So Carol --- What happened at your Cub Scout Signup Carnival, and how did you promote it? Seattle Pioneer

It may be that the moms have already been educated on this point by the other Cub Scouts. I tend to agree that this isn't a problem in which you need to intervene. People are going to make mistakes often enough, and unless it's a serious or chronic problem, they'll tend to discover and correct those mistakes over time. The basic question for the Cubmaster is, "Did I choose the best people for this Den Leader job, and do they have the wisdom and training to be able to do a good job?" Seattle Pioneer

Camporee May 13-15th Cub Pack Overnight Camp (Troop camping & hopefully new Webelos Scouts joinging and camping with the Troop June 4-5 Bicycle camping trip with Sag Wagon support for hauling gear June 25-26. Then summer camp July 24-30. All car camping trips so far. These Scouts still need practice in organizing themselves for these outings and conducting them in good style. Also, there hasn't been any demand for backpacking type trips or high adventure trips from the PLC, but some adults are getting antsy. They are learning --quite a lot, really. But we haven't seen anyone with a real leadership flare take charge to really nail problems consistantly. Seattle Pioneer

This is an interesting thread because it challenges the folks who ritually trot out the idea of "we have boy led patrols. The patrols decide everything and unless it's a safety issue they'll learn from their mistakes." When you get down to cases, it's not quite that easy, and boys often enough need to be protected from the consequences of poor decision making. At our Camporee ten days ago, Scouts (and adults, too) had trouble getting enough food available when it was needed to keep energy levels up. This resulted in boys and adults going hungry and energy levels crashing. Of course, Camporee is DESIGNED to challenge patrols and troops. This one did a good job of feeling out our weaknesses. I got up at 5:30 AM and had breakfast pretty much ready for the adults by 6 AM. But then it was 12:30-1PM until lunch. I had added "fruit" to the menue, and had an apple for each person, but I had neglected to actually hand the apples out until I started getting hungry around 11 AM. Then I remembered and handed out the fruit, which really tasted good, and provided a much needed energy boost. I later discovered that some Scouts hadn't eaten much for breakfast ----picky eaters who were used to cooked oatmeal and didn't want to eat instant oatmeal (or maybe it was the reverse?). Judging from the number of Scouts who were energy starved and listless, or crabby and uncooperative by 11 AM, we were not alone in failing to deal adequately with the need to keep people properly fed. The good thing about this was that it was so obvious that it will be easier for the Scouts and adults to learn the needed lessons. Our troop has been concentrating on doing car camping. Personally, I see a good deal that still needs to be learned about this art. Seattle Pioneer

The other end of the continuum from "timeless values" is "fashionable values" that change constantly --- change for the sake of change, fed by the need for bored people to spend money and manufacturers who need to sell people things they already have. No wonder I have trouble recruiting new Boy Scouts. Seattle Pioneer

Scout Mom asks if I'm going to show people how to recruit the Cub Scouts they want. That, actually, is my new job. Friday night at our District Recognition Dinner, I found my name listed among the District staff as Membership Committee Chair ---first I'd heard of it! And I don't claim to be a marvelous success in recruiting. I merely claim to have struggled with it and been learning about it. Actually, there is Scout literature that tells you everyone you need to know about how to do it, but you have to make your own choices from all the options they give you, and apply them to the situation that confronts you. That requires judgement and experience to do well. Anyway, my job this summer is going to be to induce cub packs in the district to select two or three people each to be trained in the art of Cub Scout Recruiting. The Council is organizing what should be very good training for those Pack Membership Committee people in how to attract a crowd to a Scout night, and how to turn the crowd into registered Cub Scouts --- and Scouters. My first effort to attract support for that is going to be to ask Cub Masters and Cub Pack Committee Chairs the question that names this thread. It seems to me to be a GREAT come on. The Cub Pack that wants to recruit ten, twenty or thirty new boys has established a goal for themselves by telling me that's what they want to do. My next step is to tell them that I need the name of two or three adults who are willing to be trained in how to meet that goal. That's my theory anyway, as I try to decide how to do my new job. Which I didn't ask for. So for those who want to do recruiting but don't know how, let me suggest that the first thing you need to do is to set a goal for the Cub Scouts (and adult volunteers) you want to recruit. The second thing you need to do is to identify the two or three people in your Pack who would be the best people to conduct that recruiting effort, and persude them of the need to contribute their time. Tonight I attended the Pack Committee meeting for the Pack for which I'm Commissioner. I told them that I needed three good volunteers to solicit to help recruit new Cub Scouts this fall. Guess what ---- they gave me three names. My next job is going to be to get those people on board as a Pack Membership Committee. They don't know it yet, but they are going to help me recruit Membership Committees from Packs around the District, before they get a chance to recruit Cub Scouts. Stay tuned to see if I succeed at that or fall FLAT ON MY FACE! And those who already have succesful programs with loads of Cub Scouts, to what do you attribute your success? Do you get most parents to accept a Pack position doing the work needed to keep the Pack strong? Do you have particular recruiting methods that prove to be succesful? Seattle Pioneer

You describe a very sad state of affairs in Map & Compass Land, John D. No doubt true in too many cases, though. In these parts, a declination of 22 degree East is hard to ignore if you are using a compass for something else than decoration around your neck. Personally, I find most of the Tenderfoot-1st Class skills both useful and important. Especially important to me is the ability to read a map and orient a map using a compass ---really an essential skills if you plan to hike in the backcountry. And the key to knowing where you are on a map is to CONSTANTLY be checking your theories about where you are, which involves taking azimuths on topographical features to establish your current position. I hikes and camping trips, I expect Scouts to be able to navigate their way from the troop headquarters to the trailhead, not just on the trails themselves. And to find the routes to get home again as well. Good map and compass skills are one of the keys to having the freedom of the hills. If you don't have the skill, you are confined on where you can go. Also --- to carry a map and compass on a backcountry outing is to take the lives of other people into your hands. Make the wrong decisions, and people can be injured or killed. That's about twenty times as true if you are climbing than if you are backpacking. Have you noticed that I take map and compass skills seriously in this thread? Seattle Pioneer

I'm Unit Commissioner for a Cub Pack chartered by an elementary school PTA and also for a Scout Troop chartered by a Lutheran Church. I've been considering what I should do to maintain and improve the relationship between these units and their Chartered Organizations. The Scout Troop helps out once/month with the church's no cost community meal. A number of the Scouts, Scouters and parents turn out once/month to help serve the meal, bus and wash dishes. Three months ago we began a practice of monthly Troop Committee meetings beginning at noon on the day of the community meal, with the meal beginning at 1:00 PM. We also had a Scout Sunday service at the church. A couple of parishoners in the small congregation pointedly thanked the troop for the help provided at the community meals. I met the Chatered Organization Rep at the Scout Sunday service, he an ex Scout but 84 years of age. I called him a few days ago and invited him to attend our District Recognition Dinner as my guest, but he declined saying that he rarely went out due to his age. The Institutional Head is an ex Scout who spent 18 years in Explorer Search and Rescue, and talked to me wistfully of rejoining Scouting at his old troop, which isn't far away. I later invited him to give demonstration on splinting bones for the Troop first aid theme, but he never returned my calls. I may talk to him further about a role in the Troop or Scouting at the next community meal, tomorrow. If I'd been thinking a little faster, I would have invited him to the District Recognition Dinner, but I didn't think about that until it was too late --for this year, anyway. I joined the PTA chartering the Cub Pack, and attended several meeting in uniform since last fall. The PTA has a spaghtti dinner before the school Open House in October, and last year they almost cancelled it due to lack of volunteers to put on the dinner. A month or so ago, the Pack Committee agreed to sponsor and organize the spaghetti feed next October for the PTA. It will be a great and visible service project, a recruiting vehicle and a big help for the PTA. Last month I attended the PTA meeting in uniform to volunteer the Packs services for that project, and was warmly received, as you might imagine. The Principal of the school has been warmly supportive of the Cub Pack, and an informal goal of mine is to imagine that someday she will be sitting around with other Principals who are complaining about the lack of people helping the schools. OUR principal would then pipe up that they need to sponsor a Cub Pack in their schools to get the help they need! The Scout Troop is volunteering to put on a stationary bicycle race at the elementary school carnival/fundraiser June 10th. This will be both a service project and an important recruiting effort, since we will be taking names, addresses and ages of boys competing and then following up to invite them into the troop. In short, I'm working to make the Scouting program fill useful roles for both chartered organizations. This is probably especially important in the PTA, since some individual could always lead an attack on Scouting, especially if no one from Scouting is paying attention. One issue I'm contemplating is who the Pack should support as the Chartered Organization Rep. Last December, our Pack Committee Chair was appointed to that position so we could recharter, but that person's child is ageing out of Cub Scouting in a couple of weeks. My guess is that the PTA will be glad to name whomever we might recommend to that position ---which probably means whoever I might recommend, since I'm attending the meetings. So I'm soliciting advice on this point--- I'm not aware that the Pack has anyone regularly attending PTA meetings other than myself. Should I aim to recruit a parent to be our spy er, representative at the PTA, and to be the COR? I've considered seeking appointment as the COR myself, thinking that it might be fun and interesting to do a really good job at that usually neglected position. But I just discovered last night that my District appointed me as the District Membership Chair, which threatens to reduce my playtime! Should I take an active role in selecting a COR from among parents in the Pack or simply allow this to be an afterthought by the PTA? I'm imagining that I might find a person with good organizational skills and an interest in the PTA who is also willing to go through Scout training (I suppose they have training for CORs?) It strikes me that a Trained COR, who has a definite interest in the Pack and can offer help to the PTA might be someone really sitting in the cat bird's seat. If they have wisdom and good judgement, they could help supervise the Pack and insist that Pack leader do Cub Scouting in desireable ways, get leaders trained and such. I've never HEARD of a COR that actually performed that kind of leadership function for a unit, but as I understand it, that's the way units are SUPPOSED to function! Seattle Pioneer

Pick a number!

Good post eamonn. In my experience, one way adults interfere with Patrols is the desire for the Scouts to do ambitious trips and activities that are beyond the skills that they have. When that happens, adults tend to do the things that the Scouts can't do. A Scoutmaster told me that he was in Scouting because he liked to go backpacking. As a result, he pushed new boys to go backpacking ----hard. These were boys who couldn't cook, had no map and compass skills and such ---and as a result it was the adults who led the trips and did the cooking and the boys "helped." This is quite common from what I see, and it has the opposite problem when the Scouts want to do activities for which they lack the skills and experience. That's an invitation either to training before that trip is done, or again allowing adults to "help." Seattle Pioneer

Very good remarks, kenk. Around here, declination is 22 degrees east, so it's not something to be ignored. I teach Scouts to subtract 22 degrees on their compass so that the compass card then reads true. With an orienteering style compass, this involves manually changing the azimuth ---to 338 degrees if you want to locate true north. When finding the azimuth from one place to another on a map, I teach Scouts the method suggested in the Scout Handbook ---drawing in the magnetic north lines on the map and the using those lines to set the compass. With some practice. these methods work OK, in my experience. Using a compass with an adjustable declination feature can have it's own pitfalls. The declination may be set incorrectly or only a conventional compass might be available for use. Using a compass usually requires the use of a brain and learned skills if its to work reliably. There's just no way around that, in my view. Every time I use a compass, I'm considering what things might be barriers to getting a good reading. And map and compass work in the field alwways means you need to be considering whether your theories about your location are correct, and how they can be tested to confirm whether they are accurate. Practice, practice, practice. That's the key. At the end of January, the troop did a six mile bicycle trip, and I included eight map and compass problems the Scouts were to solve along the way. A few were: 1. Use your city map to find a route to travle from the Church at 35 AV SW and SW Cloverdale Street to Jack Block Park, across the street from 2139 Harbor Av SW [every trip in a car should involve the Scouts navigating their way to and from the destination, in my view] [Furthermore, being able to use a map to find street addresses is a very important skill a majority of adults are poor at doing].. 2. Bicycle on Harbor Av SW to a point on the water where 1. The space need is at an azimuth of 19 degrees magnetic 2) a navigation landmark about 1/4 mile away is at a magnetic azimuth of 239 degrees magnetic. Use your map and compass to identify 1 West Point Lighthouse 2 Bainbridge Island 3. Queen Anne Hill 4. Alki Point Lighthouse 4. Cobra Patrol: pick up a white flag tied around a utility pole across the street from 5427 SW Jaconsen Rd Wolverine Patrol: pick up a white flag tied around a utility pole across the street from 4248 Chilberg Av S Find a park bench on the waterfront where the magnetic azimuths are 1 318n degrees to the Alki Point Lighthouse 2 177 degrees to Williams Point 3 240 degrees to the visible south point of Blake Island. 8. Locate the address of 7139 Beach Drive SW. Continue bicycling on a magnetic azimuth of 165 degrees until you enter Lincoln Park. Find a pinic shelter with the following magnetic azimuths: 1. the end of the Fauntleroy Ferry Dock 150 degrees 2 nearby picnic shelter -- 280 degrees Stop--- you have arrived at our location for lunch! One of the advantages of this kind of exercise is that there isn't too much need for adults to ride herd on the Scouts. They are constrained and directed by the orienteering problems rather than ever present adults. That gives an illusion of freedom and independence. Seattle Pioneer

Merit Badge Counselors sound like a promising source. Will this be a special dinner with recruiting commissioners as it's primary purpose? I hope you'll post on how that works out in practice. I was talking to another Scouter about this last night at our District Recognition Dinner. He suggested recruiting Webelos Den Leaders as Commissioners. That sounded like a promising idea, since many probably have several years of experience in Scouting, and may well have children who are "ageing out" of Cub Scouting, so you would be less likely to be raiding the leadership structure of the Cub Pack. My idea of recruiting Eagle Scouts was rejected by this experienced Scouter, who thought these young men would be 1) too young to have credibility with the leaders they would have to deal with and 2) too busy with their own lives. Those are probably reasonable concerns, but it might be worthwhile to give it a try and see how it might work. Does anyone else have ideas of list or groups of adults within Scouting that might be combed for new Commissioners? Seattle Pioneer

I just described how the Scouts recommend that the best people be SELECTED for the job, rather than taking pot luck IF people, even the wrong people, volunteer. I just had an expert show me how this is done. Our district had it's annual recognition dinner tonight, a nice affair. I had the honor of being given several awards, which perhaps with benefit of hindsight should have made me suspicious. One of the things done was to introduce district officers, and lo and behold, I was listed as District Membership Chairman, responsible for recruiting new members and setting up new units. Well. My District Executive had pitched me on doing that job several months ago, but I turned him down since I was already doing several other jobs and it was work I didn't feel I would be especially good at doing. Somehow or another, I wound up agreeing to head up a Council project to train Cub Scout Pack leaders in how to do a good job of recruiting new boys. Now I've been selected to do the whole job. So, folks, meet the new District Membership Chair! How can you turn that down, anyway? I'm making notes on that process, because now I'm going to HAVE to use the same strategy to get the help I need to do the work. Let's see: 1. Identify the best person for the job. 2. Butter that person up by recognizing their talents and efforts. 3. Volunteer them for the work you need done, and do so in a way that they can't turn it down. Seattle Pioneer

I see that the subject of recruiting Commissioners, for Roundtables, Unit Commissioners and such appears to be a chronic problem. That's true in my district as well. The District Commissioner is strongly encouraging the Commissioner staff to suggest people who might be good candidates to be Commissioners, and this is a point on the agenda each month. So far, the District Director (DE) has suggested several names. No one else has suggested any. I saw one post suggesting that an effort to communicate with Troop Committee members, Assistant Scvoutmasters and such through a dinner produced people potentially interested in serving. Unfortunately, that might resemble cannibalizing the staff of your units. I'd like to throw out the idea of reviewing the names of Eagle Scouts and perhaps Life Scouts who are aging out of Boy Scouts and considering whether it would be appropriate to invite them to attend the College of Commissioner Science with an eye to appointing them as Unit Commissioners might work. I suspect that many such very carefully trained young men simple disappear from Scouting for ten or twenty years until they reappear with their own children in Cub Scout programs. Are there ways to keep them active in Scouting by giving them jobs that need to be done. I throw out the idea that carefully selected Eagle Scouts should be invited to attend the College of Commissioner Science. I also invite other ideas on how to fill positions at district level with capable people. Seattle Pioneer

I see that it's VERY common for chartered organizations and chartered organization reps to play a very limited role in Scouting organizations. On the other hand, I've heard of some that contribute $4,000-5,000 a year to supporting their Scouting organizations. If you have a productive relationship with your CO and COR, what do you do to maintain and cultivate that relationship? If you don't what things might you try, or is it a waste of time? Seattle Pioneer

Very good comments, John Bowen! I've done a fairly wide variety of outdoor stuff over the decades, from rowboat cruising to climbing and bicycling. When discussing outings, I tend to draw on that experience. I wonder whether that's always a good idea. The plus side is that I have some real expertise and experience which offers added safety to an activity. But I also tend to suggest trips, routes and such with which I'm familiar, which tends to relieve Scouts of the responsibility of doing that kind of leadership work. Your post suggested a possible option --- selecting a type of outing which would be new to both Scouts AND adult leaders. If no one is familiar with canoeing, perhaps canoeing skills could be learned ----REALLY learned, at summer camp by both adults and Scouts. Scouts might be able to decide on trips by talking with summer camp instructors, Scouts in other troops who have done canoe trips and such. Then the Troop could grow by doing a series of canoe trips in which skills and experience are developed over time. I think canoeing because two senior Scouts in the troop proposed a canoeing trip in August. These two boys have the canoeing merit badge and a trip or two under their belt. But most of the rest of the troop (and adult leaders) lack experience in that skill and I discovered Tuesday most lack the swimming ability to do canoeing required by the Guide to Safe Scouting (First class swimming). Ahhh. Life involves complicated choices. I'm not sure how to square that circle, and I don't think the Scouts can do it either! The easy way out is to do easy trips that everyone can do. But that tends to be boring for senior scouts interested and able to take on greater challenges. Seattle Pioneer

My general rule of thumb is that I want to be able to survive the worst that is at all likely to happen. I want to be able to manage the things I reasonably expect to have happen with a satisfactory degree of comfort. That doesn't just apply to campouts, either. I manage my personal finances and such with much the same standards. Seattle Pioneer

Hello Dug! I was prepared to sniff at the cost of the parka you referred to in your post --- but $50 is a reasonable price for a lot of people. But if you use a parka, you really need rain pants as well. In wind, cold and rain, legs need protection. But even with just rain, water comes off a parka and soaks the legs unless you have rain pants. And that's an additional expense. So for Scouts on a budget, I think there's a lot to be said for ponchos. They offer a lot of flexibility at low cost. For the determined penny pincher, thrifts shops yiled up good parkas and rain pants often enough to make the search worthwhile. Oftentimes I find very high quality rain gear for $5-10 in thrift shops, although finding sizes to fit young boys is probably tougher. Since no one has talked about hats --I guess that's my job. In my view the BEST rain hat is a 'souwester style waterproof rain hat. It usually offer great protection from rain in the face and from rain that otherwise would drip down the sides or back of the head. Can't beat 'em in a real rainstorm. For winter or high winds, there's an argument for using the hood on a parka. But you need to add a baseball style hat since the bill on the hat protects the face from rain and turns the hood when you turn your head ---preventing the hood from obstructing your sight. Seattle Pioneer

Heh, heh! Sounds like there are a lot of us singing the same song in the choir! One additional comment: The Scouts have a good handout on SELECTING leadership. It emphsizes that the best practice is not to wait for people to volunteer for positions, because you may not get the best people for the job. Instead, it suggests that the Pack/Troop (whatever) should conduct an inventory of leadership positions that need to be filled, and decide on which people are the best people to fill those positions. Then go to those people and ask them to do those jobs. More work. Better results, I'd bet, in most cases. Seattle Pioneer

What does your Pack expect parents to contribute to the Cub Pack, and how do you communicate and/or enforce those expectations? The Pack I'm working with is developing a great program, but Pack leaders are hesitent to clearly communicate the help they need to continue it. In past years, the Big Mistake was that one person did EVERYTHING. When that person left, the Pack collapsed. Now, we have three Pack leaders doing the same thing. They apparently don't see that they are still making the same mistake. When two pack leaders and I took BALOO training a couple of weeks ago, the trainers had one pack paticipant relate that they required each paren t with a boy in the program to take on at least one important function or responsibility. That seems like the ticket to me ---adding new boys isn't an additional burden that way, instead he is a source of more help and a richer program. We are having what should be an outstanding Pack Overnight Camp June 4-5. It would be an ideal time to corral the parents in a parents meeting and lay out expectations for participation and sign them up to perform needed jobs in the Troop. But I was shot down when I suggested this by the pack leaders (I'm a Unit Commissioner). Any ideas on how to turn this situation around? The Pack Committee recognized that they needed help to to the campout. Their solution was to e-mail parents asking for parents to attend the committee meeting ---but no one showed up. So the Pack leaders are organizing the overnight. I would think they would put two and two together, but they don't want to infringe on the parents having an unimpeded good time at the campout. From my point of view, I see another organizational collapse when these three fine people get tired of being overworked and exploited. Seattle Pioneer Frustrated

My one experience as an adult leader on a combined Boy Scout/Venturing crew overnight was a disaster. To a large extent, this was because it was a poorly planned outing. But the presence of girls and boys added more than a few complications, including a lot of competition mostly by girls over boys and girls and boys in the same tent in some cases. In addition, the younger Boy Scouts tended to just get lost among the older children ---no doubt due to poor planning to some degree. My experience is that it added a lot of complexity to an already complex situation. Who needs it? And in an earlier post, I was amused to see Britsh Scouting described as "completely coed. Girls can still join Girl Guides." Seattle Pioneer

Does your pack have den flags? If so, are they "Den3" type flags or do the Scouts name their Den after animals and such as Boy Scout patrols do? Do the boys in the den keep their name and flag from year to year as they advance? The pack I work with is having an overnight camping trip June 4-5, and one planned activity is to give the boys a chance to make a den flag. Any pointers on the aims and methods of accomplishing this task would be welcome. Seattle Pioneer

Nice post, CA Scouter About those EZ-Up canopies, though... I have one. I brought it to a very rainy Camporee, but we didn't use it. The Scouts TRIED to use it as their rain fly, but I nixed that idea. TARPS! Learn and use the skill! My theory is that adults should set an example, and the adults used a 12x12 tarp we had set up several times. The Scouts got a tarp up, but it was kind of marginal, and had a tendency to fall down. We are going to do a joint overnight with a Cub Scout Pack June 4-5th, and the Troop may need to assist the Pack in setting up tarps. So we have layed on practice of setting up a 12x20 tarp using poles, lines and stakes for next week's troop meeting. (Personally, my standard for having a rain tarp includes the tarp itself, four 6' poles 2"x2" and two 8' poles. Each pole has a nail in the end which can be fit in a grommet. With this arrangement, the corners of the tarp are staked out, then the two 8' poles are used to form a ridgeline in the middle. With this arrangement, you maximize the area protected and don't need to rely on vegetation to hold things up). On camping trips, the Scouts usually make compromises in setting up tarps, and really haven't perfected the skill. By setting up a tarp once in an effective way, perhaps they will improve the way they use the skill in the future, and especially on the Cub Pack Overnight if needed. Anyway--- back to EZ Ups. To me, they are too expensive and too easy for Scout use as a general rule. I used mine once in January on a bicycle trip where it rained a lot, and I would have used the one I brought to Camporee if it had been raining during the comnpetitions and someone would have benefitted from such a shelter. But in general both we Scouters and Scouts set up a conventional rain fly. I might add that on last week's Camporee, we had LOTS of tarps, and found uses for most or all of them. The availability of cheap, lightweight tarps is a great feature of modern Scouting, in my view. Think I'm being too tough? The EZ Up is my personal gear. Seattle Pioneer