sctmom

I found this website and thought is was very interesting. It is an online copy of Seton's Book of Woodcraft. Enjoy. www.wickiup.com/wickiup/seton/index.html

To fold or not to fold? That is the question. I have a "Ozark Trails" tent. Not a high quality tent, but I still want to NOT destroy it. It says it is made from "uv-poly-titanum", a "durable tent fabric." Of course the instructions say to fold the tent. I hear some about that creating creases that will wear down easily. Do I fold or stuff? Or does it really matter with this low end tent?

Ed, Yep, can't please some people no matter what you do. In the years I've known these folks, I've only seen a handleful of people who they were happy with in scouts or at school. I give this scoutmaster a LOT of credit. I told him I didn't agree with some things I saw, and he seemed very open to talk about it. He is sad he lost some scouts and hopes they do find another troop or start their own. He also thanked me for hanging in there when the going got tough the other day. The adults in this troop admit they are not perfect. They try to not make the same mistake twice. Bottom line is they ARE following the BSA methods and policies. What are we teaching our kids if we walk out as soon as things aren't exactly how we want them? Yes, there are times when you run from something as fast as possible, but I talked with my son and told him this was not one of those times. If I avoided everyone I didn't agree 100% with, then I would have to be a hermit. We aren't talking about an abusive situation.

SagerScout, I've heard some people say Girl Scouts are not AS friendly as BSA about wanting family involvment. Especially at the younger ages. Cub Scouts MUST have a parent on all campouts. Siblings are not only welcomed but encouraged in Cub Scouting. Boy Scouting is different, because it is also teaching independence. I've heard many others also say that Girl Scouts seem to do more thorough background checks than BSA. Can we accurately compare sexual abuse cases between Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts? Aren't most, not all, but most sexual offenders male?

"I understand that this will create problems for some scouts however, the the risk of improper storage and distribution and the expectation that a leader was an amateur pharmacist created to many opportunities for the scout to be improperply medicated and was a liability problem for the leaders. " I do understand this. That's why the one scout did not go, the parents know the leaders most likely do not know how to mix and administer the medications. For a weekend, often the parents can go. I do hope that summer camps have approriately trained people to handle the kids with very special needs. Also, many kids with ADHD do not have to take their medicine when not at school. Which may explain part of the chaos on Scout campouts --- LOL. Should BSA follow the GSUSA rule of having a trained "first aider" on all trips? To me this sounds like a good idea, not just hoping the adults know first aid.

My son's troop has the older scouts doing most of the teaching and signing off for the younger scouts. Main problem right now is there are so many new scouts. At the troop meeting, the older boys led the new scouts in their physical fitness requirements. At the campout there were 18 new scouts. A couple of ASM's did the joining requirements, some knots and the totin chip class with the new boys. Not all the older scouts were on the campout, and the ones there got to take a break while the younger ones were busy learning. I think with that many new scouts at one time, the ASM teaching the totin' chip was a good idea. For the most part I think the older scouts will sign off on the lower ranks. I know some of the older scouts were working with a 1-year scout on building the campfire. The older boys also led the campfire program that evening.

The PL has been with the troop for a year, a PL for a month. I think everyone felt he would do best trying out his leadership with the new scout patrol. The older boys would just ignore him, he has problems communicating and relating to his peers. The older scouts were keeping to themselves and not nearby. The Scoutmaster and ASMs were within 100 feet of the 2 new scout patrols. The Scoutmaster realized we (parents of 3 new boys) were not real happy on Saturday. He made it clear we had as much authority as he did. He encouraged us to go inspect the ice chest and food cleanliness situation when we questioned it. As the new parents, of course we didn't want to step on any toes. Once he made it clear, we did go assist the PL in preparing dinner. The parents were good at showing him what to do, without doing it for him. The next morning, the others stepped back again instead of assisting. In their defense, I think they didn't want to overstep the boundaries and wanted to let the official adults do their job. The scoutmaster saw that he needed the troop guides and a couple of adults more involved with this patrol and started fixing that on Sunday. By then it was too late for a few of these folks. On the other hand, I know these people and they have done this in the past at the Pack level. They want to have their own troop and run it their way. I knew they would not stay long if they couldn't take over. Nice people but like to control.

My son will not remember to take his medicine, neither do most ADHD kids. Shoot, I have a hard time remembering to take my meds when away from home and my regular routine. When we are talking about 11 year old's, most will not remember to take the medicine and that could be a serious problem. I would prefer that an adult handle the medicines. The medicines for ADHD are basically speed. Other kids take them they are going to get high. Also, I know a boy who just joined Boy Scouts who takes a lot of medicine throughout the day for a kidney disease. Some of this must be refrigerated and some must be mixed each day. His mother did not send him on the weekend campout because she didn't feel she knew anyone well enough to handle this for her. When discussing summer camp, I recommended she call the camp the troop has chosen and ask very direct questions about how they will handle this, do they understand it. My son's school will at least allow the kids to bring in their refills to the office. Some schools say the parents have to come in every time.

This may have gone smoother if the parents had seen the troop in action BEFORE the campout. They were disappointed in the fact the Patrol Leader had "no experience". Well, that's true but at some point he has to get some. The scoutmasters realized they should have had the troop guides over in that area being more involved. Then you get into the discussion of will the troop guide let the PL do his job or will the troop guide just take over. Some boys are just going to stand aside and let the troop guide take over. The upset parents had only been to one troop visit at which we spent the whole meeting talking to the scoutmaster and didn't see the boys. They had not attended any other troop meetings. There had been no talk to them of "here is how this works." I see why some troops highly encourage all parents to go to Scoutmaster Fundamentals. Even though I haven't been yet, I have read the Scoutmaster handbook a few times and just reading these boards, I've learn a lot. It's hard to stand there and see your son struggling. Or hear that your son didn't have his choice of food for breakfast because a couple of kids ate all the good stuff while he had his back turned. For the most part the parents didn't interfere, they just got upset.

Ed, After this weekend, the troop is considering not letting new parents go camping. These boys would never camp if that was the case. The parents would not let them out of their sight. I once heard it takes about 3 months for a boy to get used to Boy Scouts and about 1 year for the parents. I really understand that after this weekend! I was a little more prepared because I've been reading and researching for the past year the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting.

I thought of this thread title after a weekend camping with my son's troop. Some parents got very upset and left early with their boys. They are going to join another troop where they can have more control. We all know one of the adults at the other troop. I know the beginning of this thread was about a scoutmaster who is ruling the troop with an iron hand and not following BSA ways. This is more about what some people would say is a "lousy scoutmaster" who is labeled that because he is following BSA ways. I was frustrated and upset at times over the weekend. But once I stepped back and thought about things, I calmed down. First of all, the scoutmaster is following the BSA methods and is very careful about safety policies. The troop uses the patrol method. There were 2 new scout patrols on this trip. One has a scout who has been in the troop for a year as their PL. Things were not always going smoothly with the boys. They are BOYS. The scoutmasters were watching, periodically pulling the PL aside to settle him down and get him focused. For the most part they were letting the boys settle their differences. For a few parents, they think this scoutmaster is bad, along with all the parents who send their children with him. The thing that really sold me on this guy was when he stood there and said "we made a mistake, let's correct it." He went and got the few older scouts at the campout, and had them get the younger ones folding tents and tarps. Was he following BSA rules and methods? Yep. Is he perfect? No. None of us are. Just like we all do with our own kids, he is doing the best he can. We all make mistakes. He admitted his mistake and started correcting it. As adults we all learned some things too. The troop they are going to disregards safety rules. They do not follow the patrol method. They are having some turn over in leadership, but have a long way to go. Especially with parents in charge who can't let their sons out of their site. One piece of advice --- if you let new parents go camping, DO NOT let their tents be within site and earshot of their boys! (even though some will probably move so they are close)

Luckily our community sports program caught on that their candy sales was losing money. Selling candy does not have anything to do with playing baseball, no matter how you look at it. They were requiring each player to take a $40 box of candy and the association made $20. If someone had 3 kids, they had $120 worth of candy to sell! Also, every other house in the neighborhood had this candy to sell. Now you can "opt out" of the candy sales. I just give them the $20 and be done. For some people who have the extended family or the co-workers who will buy everything, they can still sell. For me, I have a job and don't want all that candy in my house. I've heard of some Girl Scout troops really pressuring the girls to sell cookies. I don't want that happening in the Boy Scouts I'm involved in. Because of all the reasons listed above why people don't like the sales. If the kid can't go door-to-door for whatever reason, they can't sell and they aren't learning anything from dad selling at work. As so much else, it all depends...on the family, the community, the kid, the unit, etc. Just PLEASE don't try to sell those knick knacks and cheap candy the school tries to pawn off on people!

We get 40% profit if the unit has 2 people attend all the district planning meetings related to popcorn. The council and district gets about 30%. Don't forget they have expenses too -- training, paperwork, salaries, camps, etc. I don't like the units saying "look Johnny sold $400 worth, we want everybody to sell that much."

I didn't mind going door to door with my son with the popcorn. It really irks me the stuff the schools want everybody to sell, it is overpriced knick-knacks. I made my son do the talking as we went to the neighbors. When we delivered, I had him go to the door, make change and mark the names off the list. We stuck to our part of the neighborhood, and didn't go on the streets where we knew their were other Scouts. We also didn't go to houses of people that have said no in the past. Tdyer, wait until next year and you will hear "I was just wondering when you would be back around, I was just wanting some popcorn." The only "problem" with the popcorn is the cheapest thing is $7.00. You see people scanning the page looking for the cheapest thing. If they could just have a $5.00 item, I think it would be nice. Some units around here have the "red wagon sale". The boys and parents load up their red wagons and pull them around the neighborhood on a Saturday (when people are in the yard) and sale that way. I hear this is very successful.

I agree with Chippewa about the patrol name. Give them the pictures of patrol badges available and let them choose one. That will help keep them focused. I saw my son's troop this weekend in action. The Patrol Leader's used the patrol's name to call for assembly. The kids and adults referred to groups by their patrol name. They did everything by patrol -- set up, tent, cook, eat, clean up, suffer the punishment for NOT cleaning up. I think this will help them form together as a team.

If these 7 have their Arrow of Light they should be able to say from memory the Oath, Law, Motto and Slogan. The joining requirements should be a piece of cake for them. The "scariest" part is that Scoutmaster conference. They don't know what that means but they know that school conferences usually aren't good! I just got back from a campout with my son's troop. This was the first or second campout for most of the boys. They aren't as concerned with getting things signed off as with getting their Totin' Chip. They want to get a hold of a knife and axe. They like to tie knots. They like to put up tents. I had my Webelos put up a tent last fall at a meeting. Some of them had never been in a tent. So if you have boys brand new to Scouting, they would enjoy just sitting in the tent for a few minutes. At last night's troop meeting, the older scouts worked with the younger ones on the Tenderfoot physical fitness requirements. In 30 days, they will retest them. They boys really liked doing this. Remember, keep it fun.

I agree. Popcorn is the only thing I will even mention to relatives, friends, co-workers or neighbors. Last fall our pack had a "booth" in front of the local grocery store one Saturday. I heard it went well. We did not make it because my son got sick. I think they kids got as many donations as they did sales. Many people just gave them a couple of bucks to help out. The troop we just joined has a huge yard sale every spring. The troop and the boy's accounts benefit. The boy's sell popcorn and get all the profits put in their individual accounts. Not everybody can sell the popcorn at work. Many kids have no neighbors to sell to or no one to go with them. Many do not have close knit extended families that can afford all the stuff. I bought some Girl Scout cookies in a shopping area a few weeks ago. I complimented the girls and the parents on how the girls actually knew how to make and count out change correctly! I was impressed. These were 4th or 5th grade girls, who knew to say "that was six dollars, seven, eight, nine, ten and ten will make twenty. Thank you." They had learned a lot more than from Mom taking the order form to work.

Since the "brag" vest or jacket is not part of the official uniform, it has been my understanding the boys can put whatever they want on it. I try to encourage my son to see that it is some how related to Scouting. As a Cub Scout, that covered a lot of the things we did. The state parks where we live sell some cool looking patches. They also sell a patch that says "Georgia State Park Camper" then little ones to go with it that have the name of the Park on it. I let him put those on his brag vest because family camping is related to Scouting, and we usually were meeting some Cub requirement every time we do something at a State Park. I have not found anything in writing over the past 2 years, and I have looked and asked around.

Now that I've had time to catch my breath from the weekend camping trip, I have time to think about some of what I saw. I watched along with a few other new parents as our son's patrol struggled. The PL has been a new scout for 1 year. He is PL for one of 2 new scout patrols. He is a challenge scouts in many ways. His assistant is also a challenge scout. They both have ADHD. So they are distracting each other! They are good kids and trying but if anyone speaks to the PL he forgets what he was doing. Much less try to keep up with what 9 other kids are doing. It was painful to watch. Sunday morning turned into a 3-hour clean up fiasco. But I think the PL learned a lot. I think everyone did. The boys had been running all over this guy for the whole weekend. After 3 hours of "cleaning", the PL started sounding a little more authoritative. I have never seen this boy much until this weekend. There was a marked difference between Friday evening and Sunday afternoon in his leadership. Will he remember it today? Maybe. Will he remember it later? Maybe, maybe not. It may take many repeats of this situation for him to realize he is RESPONSIBLE for the patrol. Making sure they all get to eat, making sure they all do their part of clean up, showing them how to do these things. He wanted to do good, he was trying so hard, but just is distracted so easily. Some of the boys kept saying "well so-and-so is not over here doing what he should be". So, go get him! Go get your PL! None of the boys have ever had that responsibility on them either. They've always been told to go to the teacher or be quiet. Natural leaders started emerging. It was an interesting site to watch. Some of the new parents got upset. I kept trying to talk to them about the learning by doing part of this. I think the Scoutmasters tried to talk to them about it. So, when you put the challenge scout in that position of leadership, you might want to remind the other parents of how Boy Scouts work or be ready for their comments. I thought about could this boy have done better if he didn't have new scouts in his patrol. I don't think so. The more experienced scouts would either take over for him, ignore him or even ridicule him. The new scouts don't know any more than he does, they are younger and they are physically smaller; so at least they will not completely push him aside.

Ed, I agree with you. It's not that I don't trust other scouts or the parents. I think the boy gains a lot more by working with the other adults. Also, I have more patience with someone else's child than my own. Because of human nature, there are times when I've been working with a group of boys that included my son and a personal fight started between me and him. That doesn't help anyone and distracts from the other boys. This weekend camping, my son wanted me to go ask one of the other adults to sign off on something. He thought I could just tell them he had done it and they would sign. I refused. In this case, he was taking the easy way out. I have been his Webelos leader, and tried to be as fair as possible. I was probably harder on him at times than others, but he didn't learn the part about working with others. I don't think of it so much as a hard and fast policy but a general agreement among the adults. The troop encourages the parents to work with the boy to learn the skills but not to sign off. That makes me feel better that someone else says "yes he can do this."

This troop also does the "you will ride with adults only" trick. It seems to work and seems very reasonable to me. I even threatened my son with it. I told him I had no problem handing him over to the Scoutmaster who would find him a seat home. Then I found out the scouts wanted to ride with me because of the a/c in my van that was lacking from the other van. AH HA -- I have bribery material!

"Socratic Scouting, it works!!! " I like it too. I kept hearing "but I cleaned last time, I didn't do it." Finally I asked "who will be in trouble if the dishes aren't clean." A slight pause then someone said "all of us". RIGHT! So what do you think you should do? A few said "do it ourselves". I pointed them to the patrol members who had wandered off. Also, looking back I realize I should have also taken away the chairs that were in the area and everything else that was distracting them. I caught two of them playing with the first aid kit!

I survived a weekend of camping with the Troop! I watched carefully and tried to be objective. I tried to tread carefully also. After awhile, the Scoutmaster made it clear to me and a few other new parents that we were welcome to go help lead where we say it. We could go inspect kitchen areas and ice chests for safety (we had seen a ice chest with no ice for the raw hamburgers). Only once did the Scoutmaster ask me to step away from the boys. Once he saw I was not doing for them, I think he started trusting me more. I saw the dish tossing and the pushups. When the right time presented itself, I said "I don't like this method." He explained how the committe and scoutmasters had discussed this and why and to what severity. Boys are NOT allowed to meter out punishment. A few plastic plates were dropped on the ground or tossed away from the boys to make a point. I still don't like it. It is not as violent as I thought, but I still don't like it. This campout had 2 new scout patrols and 1 older scout patrol. One new scout patrol leader has been in scouting for 1 year. He has serious problems about getting distracted. Imagine if you were trying to cook with 9 kids running around you, asking questions and arguing! He was struggling. The Scoutmasters would periodically pull him aside and remind him that he was IN CHARGE! By the end of the weekend he understood he had to be firmer. I kept asking him the same question until he could REALLY answer it "What would help keep things organized about who does what?". By Sunday afternoon he knew that next time draw up the duty roster, post it and DO NOT change it because someone asks him to. They were running this kid ragged just arguing over the duty roster! A couple of new parents wanted to go and do things for the boys to "show them how." I did do some directing at times and explaining. I kept trying to explain to the new parents the things I have learned on this board about how the patrol and boy-led program works. They felt the boy should not be patrol leader and an adult should be there constantly. They thought "the boy should be trained" or something like that. Yes, it was frustrating to stand to the side and watch these boys not share their food, argue over cleaning, etc. But I kept telling myself, this is how they learn. It did open up some lines of communication with the Scoutmasters. Gave me the chance to say some things about what I thought. I think they also saw that I do understand the BSA methods and can actually help the boys without doing it for them.

The troop my son joined has the same "policy" as Ed. If there is anyway to avoid it, parents do not sign off on their own son. I agree this is best. It helps the boy learn to work with other adults and avoids any possible issues of "unfairness".

As Paul Harvey would say "Now for the rest of the story..." In my son's class there are 3 other Scouts. They really don't like my son much and ignore him a lot. He is not as mature as they are and they try to act "cool". One of them asked him "Why are you wearing THAT?" He replied "Because I WANT to." Then I found out that kid went home, told his parents that my son was in full uniform and that they MUST take him to Scout Shop the next day so he could have a full uniform before we left for the weekend campout! I did tell my son this and he had the biggest grin on his face! Oh, and my son's full uniform went on him Friday afternoon at 5:00 p.m for the campout. He did change into the troop t-shirt on Saturday, then back to the uniform shirt on Sunday moring. He is now fast asleep, still in the same uniform -- he hasn't removed it in 48 hours!!!! I must go wake him and get that thing peeled off! Of course I snapped a couple of pictures before I wake him up. It is one of those "oh, how cute" moments.