sctmom

Well said NJ!

Bob, Let me answer for TJ, if I may. Here is the link to the official BSA website page of the Membership Numbers from 2000. www.scouting.org/nav/about.html I found it by going to "About BSA", "Media Center", "2000 Annual Report", "Annual Membership Summary" Someone mentioned non-caucasian youth. I live in an area where the percentage of blacks is growing at a high rate, the whole population is booming. Five years ago there was 15% non-white at the elementary school, now there is over 30% non-white. The Cub Scout pack at that school has more than 70% whites. At the Boy Scouting level, the number of blacks drops even more. I know the scoutmasters are scratching their heads as to why. Our area also seems to have a growing population of mixed-race children. Money? Nope, the blacks live in nicer houses and drive nicer cars than a lot of the whites. The kids are involved in the traditional sports, band, ROTC, etc. Maybe Scouting is seen as a "white" activity? Black "role models" tend to be athletes? Most of the famous Scouts we point to are white? What I saw with the black boys in my Webelos den was they were more "street savvy" than the white boys. They knew more slang, much of it about "adult" subjects. They were more aware of the popular clothes. They listen to different music and watch different TV shows. The white kids didn't know what the blacks were talking about sometimes. For example the day the 4th graders were talking about "pimping". TJ's original point is worth considering. I went to a private school that was created when integration was forced on the state. About 12 years later many of those private schools closed because even the people who were brought up in them, no longer saw that as a priority. My own sister is so against the BSA's gay policy, she tries to tell me to take my son out. I keep telling her that BSA does a lot more good for my son than bad.

A comment about the Girl Scouts camping. A friend of mine said both her girls went to week long summer camps the summer after 1st grade! It was their "prize" for selling cookies. About the money issue, some of the boys in my son's troop told me that they are getting summer camp as a birthday present. Perhaps some of the parents could suggest that to grandparents -- at least a contribution of $20 would help them out. Homesickness -- ha, parents often flatter themselves. Two years ago, due to a child care shortage in the area, my son spent the weeks with his grandparents. At first he was coming home every weekend. By the end of the summer, I was doing good to get to talk to him on the phone. The only reason he would talk to me then was to say "I don't think I'm coming home this weekend, Mom. I've got something to do on Saturday." My son does get upset at "Camp Grandma" when Grandma determines it is too hot outside and he must come in. He says he isn't hot and has no clue what she is talking about. Reading all these posts, I'm about convinced to go myself! Nah, think I'll stay at home with the dog and cat.

Bob, no, sorry. It was in reference to Ed's comments on religion.

Ahh-- the "whose religion is right" argument. The religion I was "brought up in" (I use the phrase loosely), the religion of the church my mother now attends on a regular basis, the religion of my mother's parents. According them all Mormons, Catholics, Jews and even Methodists are NOT Christians. My mother told me last year that Methodists didn't "believe in being saved anymore." Well, that would make them non-Christian, right? Bet some Methodists would be a little surprised by this. So according this religion, all of the people mentioned above are bad role models and therefore should not teach in our schools and should not be Scout Leaders. Not to mention the many other world-recognized religions such as Muslims, Buddhists, and Native Americans. Where does that leave us?

I don't think anyone on this board is in favor of NOT following the rules, the point is how to change them properly. Even though National changed the "rules" without telling anyone. One's sexual preference does not necessarily make one a bad role model. Scout leaders are role models, not saints.

Did I miss something? I don't remember seeing NJ or TJ talk about a secret conspriacy. Bob, you say if we don't like the policy then we should leave. I do believe the Boy Scout handbook, we all so dearly love, says that if a Boy Scout does not agree with a law or rule, he works WITHIN the system to get it changed. If someone OUTSIDE of BSA says that BSA is wrong, most are quick to point a finger and say "and what have YOU done for youth lately. don't like us, then leave us alone." ">The method of leadership was established and approved by congressional charter. " Explain all the homosexuals who were leaders before the Dale case, please.

www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/841 Long article about a program the Girl Scouts have been doing since 1992.

Does he need Flint River Council or Atlanta Area Council from Georgia? My son hasn't gotten into the patch collecting, but I can get you both of these CSP's. I know I have an extra Flint River at home.

Bob writes: "In the Scoutmaster Leaders Specific Training, we teach the the adult leaders there is no need to remind boys to work on advancement. " So when to do you tell the boys this? What do you do with the boy that NEEDS reminding? My son has a serious reputation at school about not completing school work. He's in 5th grade, going to middle school next year. The teachers keep saying "it's his responsibility". I've tried to make it his responisibility. But the fact of the matter is that he HAS to be reminded, at times FORCED to do school work. Geez, I have to remind him to go to the bathroom (no joke). He will suffer whatever consequences to not to school work -- silent time at lunch, no playing at recess, loss of TV & video games,etc. It doesn't help him remember. We have him write notes to himself, still he has a problem. Guess what? He's not as severe about it as some boys. I think he's doing good at this age to remember his scout book for meetings, to have memorized the Scout Oath & Law. I can remind him of things before the meeting, but he honestly forgets in the excitement. A question I think we all need to remember when working with kids about "remembering things" -- how often have you left the house and realized you forgot something? Forgot to pay a bill? Get to the store and forget what you were going to buy? Think of something on the way to work and once you get there forget what it was you needed to do? Adults keep day planners and to-do lists and reminder gadgets on the computer. Reminders and doing it for them are not the same. Most of us have LEARNED how to remember or make notes, kids need that chance to learn this "responsibility" -- at their own pace. ::::stepping down off my soapbox::::

My son will be going to Camp Sidney Dew in North Georgia. I hear it's great. The local people are very supportive, many of the local residents volunteer their time to work at the camp. It's what "everybody" does. Was told that the new scout program has 2 adults on staff for every 5 scouts! They not only teach the swimming merit badge but they teach basic swimming for those boys who are starting from the beginning. www.nwgabsa.org/campmain.htm

Eisely, No, you weren't missing anything, but I sure thought I was. Yes, it is wonderful to say "the boys are responsible for themselves". Yet, I was standing there when the boys were asked if anyone checked their packs. From the look on their faces (and mine), you could tell that none of them knew they should do this. We are talking about brand new scouts, many not 11 years old yet. None of this was discussed at the meeting a few days earlier. I assumed someone (an older boy or an adult) would be in charge of doing that. But then again I'm surprised that teachers say they don't remind kids to turn in their homework. I was told to turn in my homework through 12 years of school and 4+ years of college. They are still kids, and assume the adults will guide them. I understand them taking responsibility for themselves but that would be AFTER a bit of time and some reminders. The reason for 3 months between campouts is that the one for April has been changed from a campout to a day outing (reason to me unknown). May is the annual fundraiser, so no campout. The next one is mid-June. The new scouts haven't completed other requirements for Tenderfoot anyway. I had hoped they would have by now, since most have their Arrow of Light, most of the requirements are a repeat for them. If you go by the theory of they need frequent recognition, then this shouldn't be happening.

My son and some of his Cub Scout buddies may never forget their very first campout, at least the parents aren't forgetting! I didn't even go and I know the story. The kids were Tigers, just joined Cub Scouting and went to the annual Council Cub camporee around Halloween. A storm front moved in that night. It rained, it stormed, the wind blew, the lightening and thunder was waking up kids. Practically every tent was flooded. The group had gotten the worst possible campsite in the camp --- right next to the lake, out in the open. This area stays wet and mushy for days after a slight rain. Many parents left in the middle of the night, even though they weren't sure of how to get back home. I patiently waited at home thinking my son and his dad would return at any time during the night. The returned the next day around lunch. Everything they took was soaking wet and muddy. The extra clothes had gotten wet. My son had one somebody else's clothes that were too big. Five years and many campouts later, this is the first one talked about in conversations. The next spring the campers had temps not above 40 and wind blowing. These 6 and 7 year old boys started asking "what's the weather for the weekend?" before EVERY campout. LOL

You might want to share this article with the other parents. In fact I think EVERY troop should be sharing this with the parents, especially new parents. http://www.scouting.org/nav/volunteers.html page down until you see "National study shows why Scout summer camp is a quality experience" Apparently your local councils will have a more detailed brochure or fact sheet.

Another thread has now started this thread. In the case of new scouts going on a their first campout. Who is responsible for getting them signed off on requirements ---- the scout or an older scout or an adult? My son can barely remember to take his homework to school, is he supposed to spend his camping weekend figuring out if he met a requirement? He packed his bag with some guidance from me for the campout (yes, extra socks and undies are good to pack, just in case). No one said "hey let's see if these new guys packed right" when we go to the meeting place. There was too much havoc trying to figure out who was riding in which van and counting heads. The next day one adult is working with the boys to get some requirements signed off and says "Did you have anyone check you pack? Well, too bad, you should have had someone check it before we left yesterday. Guess you'll wait until the next campout (3 months from now)." I see the same thing happening next time. Every body rushes into the parking lot, boys are putting gear in the trailer, we are all trying to count heads and get on the way, no body checks the packs. So, who is responsible for "reminding" the boys to work on these things?

Bob, the reason I ask is that my son went on his first campout. The second day an adult was working with the boys on Joining Badge and Tenderfoot, says "Did you present yourself to your leader properly dressed and packed yesterday? Oh, you didn't have anyone check you pack? Oh, well, do it next time." Some people go by the theory of the boy must approach someone to get signed off on this. I see that as a goal, but these first few months the boys are doing good to remember their own names! They are so excited they forget about getting signoffs. Also, what is "properly packed" when we aren't backpacking? That you have clean underwear? That you can close your bag and pick it up?

I agree with AdvanceOn -- boys don't care about "hot". They will be having the time of their life. Adults get hot quickly, kids having fun never know they are hot. I've had to sell my son on Boy Scout summer camp, but 4-H had him sold on their summer camp within minutes. Look at all the FUN! Here's what fun at my son's Boy Scout summer camp for all the first year scouts -- swimming in a POOL (not just the lake), working on knots, working on a merit badge like pottery, photograhpy, fishing, space exploration (ROCKETS!). The older boys can take shotgun or rifle shooting, archery, more swimming, more arts&crafts merit badges. In the evening they have outdoor games and indoor games (like a chess tournament). Some of the parents I know are concerned about their little boy going off for a week without mom or dad. My son's response was "That's the point! To NOT be with your parents." ROFL A friend asked me if I would go get my son if he called me saying he was homesick. I quickly explained that we don't even discuss that with the boys. The scoutmasters and camp staff are experienced with homesick boys. I'm pretending there is no phone at camp..hehehe. Phone calls? You can't make phone calls! I've yet to hear anyone say summer camp was a waste of time or money. Adults see heat, lack of bathroom facilities, hard cots, bugs, bad food, etc. Boys see fun, swimming, fun, no parents, fun, few (if any) baths, fun, independence, fun, tents, fun, fun and fun!

Bob, On this campout, did an adult or older boy go up to the new scouts and say "show me that you are packed right"? Or "show me how to whip the ends of a rope"?

One person said that 20 scouts had left one troop in a year. WOW! I'd be really upset if I was an adult in this troop. What about the district and the council? Are they are aware of numbers like that? I realized from a parent's perspective, most parents don't know what to do if they have problems with a pack or troop. They only thing they know is to leave. Parents aren't told about the structure of the organization or given a list of "here is who you call when...". I don't think we should come across negative to new parents, but at least let them know something about who is involved beyond the ones they see. Would that help?

Thanks you both for your replies. I bought a copy of the Boy Scout handbook and Scoutmaster handbook last year as a Webelos Leader. I think they are both great books. I find myself turning to the Scoutmaster handbook as help in parenting! I know the adults in the troop are very dedicated and work hard. It's not that they expect the boys to work only on their own, so this boy slipping through the cracks is not intentional. I think I'll make sure to have some rope in my car and casually ask the boy if he had a chance to work on the knot tying, since this week was spring break. Then I will offer my extra rope to him and to help him out. I see that he can take a lot more "fun" classes at summer camp if he is First Class before then (some classes are restricted to First Class and above). Bob, I will check with the district training contact first about the things you mentioned. Leader specific training is only offered about twice a year in our district. I thought as time goes on, I can share with my son and others some of the great things I see online that other troops are doing (like Mike Long's high adventure trips). The boys may not know of many of the places they could be going to in our area. The boys may not choose the same places I would, but at least they would have new places to choose from.

I'm always learning things from this board. My son has joined a good troop. Yet as you can tell from my other posts, I see some areas that could use some "attention". I filled out the adult volunteer form the same time I turned in my son's application. I think they officially listed me as a committee member. How do I, as a new parent and a female, help the troop without running over everyone? The adults in the troop are very good people. They welcome anyone who will help the troop. They are accepting of me as a female Scouter. I think I have gained some respect from them based on a few events already. They know I'm willing to stick in there, not do for the boys what they can do for themselves, and not afraid of dirt & bugs. Here are a few areas that I see needing improvement: Examples: I sat in on the Second Class BOR of a boy who has been in scouting for 2 years. He lacks one requirement to be ready for his First Class BOR. Many of his requirements were done 2 years ago (I think at summer camp). He really needs some extra attention to learn and demonstrate this ONE requirement. He does not get support from home and it seems that the other adults are saying "well, go do it" to the boy. I think he has some learning / emotional problems that are slowing him down. I also think he doesn't feel he can ask the other scouts for help on this. Do I just walk up to him at the next troop meeting and say "hey, can I help you with that requirement?" Another example: I think the boys are being rushed to Eagle. AND there is an attitude among the adults and boys of "hurry up and get to Eagle so you can leave." I know there is so much more than just the Badge and piece of paper. Sure, a lot of boys can get to Eagle in 2 to 3 years. Sure, a lot are going to quit in their mid-teens. But why is that the mantra of the troop? This starts with the rushing to First Class and getting the Eagle required Merit Badges as soon as possible, anyway possible (like Merit Badge "college"). I've heard from more than one boy "if I had worked harder on such and such, I would already have Eagle and be out of here." I've heard from more than one adult "soon my son will have Eagle and be out of here." I've heard from adults and boys "have your son start working on his (fill in the blank) badge, it's Eagle required." HEY, he just started LAST MONTH! The troop is boy-led. The committee, SM and ASM's repeat "we do it for the boys" and really mean it. The troop is active -- at least one major activity/campout every month; based on what the boys want to do. They follow the rules and guidelines of BSA. So, as SM's and the such out there, how would you best respond to me if I came to you with suggestions to improve an already good troop? Oh, I can't seem to find any Boy Scout training within 100 miles of me for the next few months. I'm in the process of touching base with the district about any suggestions they have for getting trained.

Just my two cents worth.... My family does not attend church or feel we belong to a particular organized religion. I have only seen a couple of "vespers" in Cub Scout Camping. I saw nothing to object to. I would in fact think that Summer Camp is a great time for my son to experience a religious service -- with friends, most likely outdoors, an upbeat program aimed at young boys. I would object if I felt the service was only for one extreme denomination, forced the boys into stating their faith, tried to get the boys to join a particular church, was a "fire and brimstone" type service, or any other extreme. For example, attending a private high school, we once had "Bible Lessons", taught by a local preacher who told us HIS church was the ONLY right church and the Catholics were heathens. There was so much more he could have taught us instead. Our school was not related to a church and we had various types of Protestants in attendance. We may have had some Catholics and just didn't know it. Could you have someone else in your organization talk to the parents who object? Find out specifics of what they are afraid of. Someone who could tell them what the services are like.

I've been reading about Seton's Woodcraft program. Some of the requirements for awards is pretty amazing. Here are a few I found very interesting, these are only one of many requirements to actually recieve the "badge" or "degree": Identify 100 different birds that you have seen State whether "mother" is legally "next of kin" to her children in her state. Explain the difference and likeness between a feminist and a suffragist. Sleep out 100 nights or 30 consectutive nights. Make a camp table and 6 chairs from wood. Give a party for at least 6 people. Know 25 edible mushrooms. Rid a house of flies, rats, mice or cockroaches for one month. Make a journey on foot of at least 100 miles. Camp in at least 10 different states or countries. Enter the Artic or Antarctic circle. Cross the Equator. Travel at least 100,000 miles by rail or steamship. Cut, make and harvest 5 acres of hay. Build a log cabin. There are many references to "cook a digestable meal". One "honor" you can work on is "motoring"--- driving a car across the continent, or for a set number of miles. "Dancer" - know many dances such as minuet, Irish folk dances, Indian dances, Greek dances. "Taxidermy" and "entertainer" are areas to get awards in. Possibly the best of all: Make and run for 7 days a flyless and practically odorless latrine, for "coup"; 30 days for "grand coup".

Bob, My son's troop IS using the new scout patrol method. The new scout patrols are not necessarily doing the same thing as the older scouts. There are mainly new scouts and Life scouts, very few in-between. I see the same thing Ed is mentioning, though. I have been thinking myself that they are rushing them through the requirements a bit. The adults want to get them through the First Aid requirements in the next few troop meetings. I wonder how much the boys will learn. I know they don't have to master it, but I think having really learned the material would mean more to the boys than to just get it checked off in the handbook. Shouldn't first class in first year be a by-product of an active troop? I know that much of the learning can be done outside of troop meetings. But for some boys, that doesn't happen, for various reasons. How do I as a new parent in the troop, contribute to making this process better? Officially, I'm a troop committee member. The scoutmaster has stated he doesn't mind me working with the boys, in fact he is very happy for any and all help. Realistically, I can't go in there saying "change your ways!" and I can't change the troop overnight. Here's an example of a boy who didn't get First Class in First Year (not the norm): Boy has been in the troop 2 years, JUST did his Second Class Board of Review. Most of his requirements were signed of 2 years ago, I think at summer camp. He lacks ONE requirement to be able to sit for his First Class BOR. He is active in the troop, but gets basically no support at home. He has emotional / learning problems that have probably slowed him down some. What does your troop do about a boy in this situation?

My son is in a new scout patrol. In fact the troop has 2 new scout patrols right now. The troop has a lot of Life Scouts and a lot of new scouts. Not much in between. When is advancement supposed to take place, if not at troop events? I understand learning can take place anywhere, including home if I want to teach him the stuff. I don't think this is unique to this troop. Look at the "first year program" of any summer camp. They work on a lot of requirements from all first 3 ranks. I understand and agree with your reasons #4 and #5. That makes the goal of First Class in First Year make sense to me. But if troop are rushing them through, hoping that keeps them interested, what do we do about it? If they are going through at "speed of Light" as Ed originally mentioned, then are they really prepared for the outdoors? I know this is an age old question, but what can I as a parent new to the troop do ? Should they require the first 3 ranks to be earned in order? Thoughts anyone.