ScoutNut

Yep, I do have a suggestion - If you want to keep your Scouts then do not treat them like they are in school, or the army. Robert Baden-Powell (founder of the Scouting Movement) stated that Scouting is a "game with a purpose". Our job is to teach the boys that game, and play it with them. You generally will not get boys to play the game if you are holding a club over their heads. The Webelos program is mainly den and Scout centered. Parents are not involved with their Scout in the same way they were in the younger Cub levels. However parent involvement is still important. Parents make great Activity Badge Coaches. Parents should be going on den campouts and Troop visits with their Webelos. The more you can get the parents to buy into Scouting the better the experience for your Scouts, and the better behaved they will be. Holding den parent meetings help to get everyone working together on the same page. Communication between you, as the Webelos den leader, and the parents is very important. You need to capture the boys attention by giving them a FUN, ACTIVE, HANDS ON program. Boys act up more if they are bored. Give them responsibility. Webelos is a transition to to Boy Scouts. If you help the boys take more control of their den, they will not only behave better, but it will be a good intro to what they will find in a BS Troop. Boys need to learn self control. A set of den rules that THEY help to create is one of the best ways to do that. These things were all covered in the Webelos Den Leader Specific training you took. These suggestions/comments are not from some "ideal", or "perfect" world of 30 years ago. These are things that have worked / are working, with dens & Packs today.

A den Code of Conduct - which the BOYS help to develop - that mirrors Cub Scouting's 12 Core Values (which mirrors the Boy Scout Oath) is NOT mumbo jumbo. It is a way for us to achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting. We are talking 1st thru 5th graders here, NOT middle thru high school kids. They need the reminders to LEARN how to BE a Scout. They are, after all, still learning the game. Again, these are boys, in 1st thru 5th grade CUB SCOUTS. This is NOT school. They are NOT in a full time (or even part time) job. We are talking CUB SCOUTS!! There is no need for the dreaded "permanent record" to follow them into Scouting. That is NOT Scouting. CalE322, might I suggest that you take some BSA training to understand what Scouting is all about. If your Pack is having discipline problems during their Pack meetings then perhaps you should bring this up at the next Pack Leaders Meeting. Your Cubmaster (CM) needs to remind the parents that BSA does NOT stand for Baby Sitters of America. PARENTS are responsible for disciplining their own kids. It also helps if the parents sit WITH their kids at the Pack meetings.

As a Webelos den leader you are responsible for your den. At your next den meeting discuss with your Scouts what it means to be a Scout. Have a discussion on the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack, and what they mean. Go over the Boy Scout Oath and Law (something they need to do for their Webelos badge anyway), and discuss what they both mean. Have the BOYS (with a bit of help from you) put together a Den Code of Conduct. Be sure the boys include consequences for not following the Code. Another way to reinforce positive den behavior is the use of a bead jar. You have a clear jar marked off at regular intervals (marker/tape). Scouts each get to put a bead in the jar for doing something good (being trustworthy, helpful, kind, etc), and take a bead out for behavior that is not good. This can be tied in with what the boys decide on for their Den Code of Conduct / Consequences. When the beads reach one of the marked levels the den gets something special. This can be a visit to the nearest ice cream shop for mini cones, a trip to a park, a pick from a box of $1 store toys, anything cheap and fun. If there is a problem with everyone talking at once, all of the time, many dens use a Talking Stick. This is a decorated stick, or any other object that the boys decide on. Only the person holding it is able to speak. Everyone else should listen until it is their turn with the Talking Stick. Remember, it is the job of the PARENTS to discipline their own children. It is your job to work WITH the parents to help the boys achieve the 10 purposes of Cub Scouting. You can tell the rest of the den leaders at the next Pack Leaders meeting about your den's Code of Conduct, and any other things you are doing to help with den discipline. Let them know how they are working, and suggest to them that they give it a try in their den's too. For Pack meetings, some Packs use a traveling "Cubbie" award. The den that has the best behavior, best attendance, most Scouts in uniform, etc, is awarded the "Cubbie" at the end of the month's Pack meeting. They get to keep it at their den meetings for the next month. At the end of the year, maybe there could be a streamer for the flag of the den who has earned the "Cubbie" the most times that year. However, as a den leader, you are not responsible for telling other leaders how they must handle discipline in their dens. I see no need for signature forms or discipline logs. Get the Scouts invested in acting like Scouts and the parents invested in helping their kids grow.

>>"I joined a "non-traditional" pack about a year ago. My son's Tiger den leader quit on us mid-March, and I volunteered to take over as DL .... My den was the most active, did our own mini-campouts ">"Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America."

>>"When the board ended, the scout was asked to step outside so the board could discuss his advancement. Since it was time for the troop meeting to end, the scout ended up seeing his parent in the parking lot and leaving. His 6 months of Star actually is in the middle of the week so he knew his book could not be signed until the next meeting."

OK, this "list" is actually a number of years worth of holiday wreath order forms from your two son's previous wreath sales? The Troop copied the order forms, and is now handing these old order forms out to their current Scouts to use for their sale? And they are now claiming that they "own" the customers listed on these forms? I make copies of all of the popcorn Take-Order sheets for our Pack for the same reason as your Troop gave, in case someone looses their sheet. It is difficult to deliver a product if you have no clue who purchased it. However - I would NEVER presume to keep those order sheets and give them to other Scouts to use years down the line. Once the sale is completely over, the sheets go in the recycle bin. I think that Troop's leaders have been sniffing to much pine sap!

From the BSA Board of Review Training - >>"The board of review is how the troop committee (or the Eagle Scout board of review) tracks the progress of a Scout to determine his understanding of the ideals of Scouting and how he applies them in daily life in the troop. If the board of review is for rank advancement, the board will satisfy itself that the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for that rank and will review with the Scout the requirements for the next rank. The board of review is also a way of reviewing the troop's progress.">"But be aware that a Scout who is poorly prepared for the board, one who clearly has not achieved what his book says that he has, is a product, as much of his own merits as of the merits of those who have brought him the board, to those who have signed off his accomplishments without actually having them properly achieved. Thus, a Scout may not be as responsible for his lack of preparation as might be thought. This does not grant carte blanche to the ill-prepared Scout, but it does give the board a way to understand what must be done and to assist the Scout in doing it." You state that the problem of not training, or mentoring, a Scout in his POR is an ongoing problem in your Troop. What has the BOR recommended in the past? What has the Committee done about this problem? It sounds to me like this Scout did his POR in the only way he knew how, or was allowed to do it. He was then signed off on having properly completed his POR, and submitted for advancement by his SM. The Troop program needs to be fixed ASAP so that this does not continue any longer. One other thing you mentioned did stand out to me as a problem. >>"I just want to say the scout does not yet know that it was advised that he failed the BOR.">"Once you have interviewed the Scout, the board will ask him to leave the room so that the members may deliberate. As this is often the most stressful part of the process for the Scout, this deliberation should not be long. However, it should be long enough to have a discussion that leads to a unanimous decision. When the meeting is finished, the Scout should be invited back in to hear the board's decision, which, of course, should be delivered in a friendly and supportive manner, regardless of what the decision is.">"If the Scout is not advancing, the board should certainly give the Scout the opportunity of learning what he needs to do to advance. He should be given a definite time for a subsequent board of review. Finally he should be given information about appeal procedures.">"In a good troop, having a Scout deferred for advancement by the board of review is unusual. If there is a problem with a Scout, normally he will not be presented to the board of review."

Just curious, if "the list" was something that was developed by your family, for use by your son in his sales efforts, why is it that the old Troop has copies of it? The posters are correct, you can not "own" a customer list. Although some companies do sell them, they usually sell the same list to numerous people/companies. I agree with the "just ignore them" scenario. The only problem I can see is if the customers get fed up being solicited for every sale that comes down the pike, by numerous phone calls, from numerous Boy Scouts.

If you have 4 registered Bear leaders (which you should have for the extra help even if you do not split) why not just split into 2 groups of 7-8 on your own? I do not recommend a 4-11 split as that still leaves one den too large. You can get together for outings, and special projects, but work on your own for den meetings. If neither of the 2 dens would be meeting at the CO, I do not see why you need the permission of the COR. I really don't see the COR kicking the Scouts out because there are 2 groups. Just do it.

The decision is out of your hands. Actually it never was in your hands. Your council is processing the paperwork, and recommending that National recognize this Scout for what he did. I think that is wonderful. Your attitude could very well spoil what should be a great moment for this Scout. Especially if any publicity surrounding this focuses more on your statements about the victim being a liar, than on the wonderful thing the Scout did. Have you by any chance already told the boy that he will be receiving, or deserves to receive, the Heroism Medal? Leave the final decision to the National Court of Honor, where it belongs. BTW - I would not use quotes from non-BSA websites to try to prove your points to your council. The correct quote from the BSA application is definitely not mumbo jumbo. It basically states that you can not get a medal for simply doing what you are trained to do for your job or your responsibility as a leader. A lifeguard would not be eligible for preforming his job and saving a life.

Yes, the first thing a DE will do is to push starting a new Pack. Increase in members and units are major criteria in his pay raises. Starting a new unit is VERY hard and time consuming. You can NOT be registered as both a Cubmaster and a den leader at the same time. You are already doing 3 jobs in your current Pack. Adding a few more, especially one as involved as CM is not a good idea, and will lead to burnout. A Pack will never succeed with one person doing everything. Are all 4 of the Bear den leaders registered? Has everyone taken training yet? If your Charter Org is not providing meeting room for the dens, and the other Bear leaders do not have space available in their homes (as you do), perhaps that is why the decision was made not to split. Perhaps not. We can spend a lot of time here guessing about what might be going on. It is really hard for us to give you any kind of USEFUL feedback when we only have part of the information. What were you told was the reason for not splitting the den?

Asperger's was my first thought also when texture problems were mentioned. However, with a Psychologist for a mother, who states that he has been tested, and evaluated, by multiple doctors who can find nothing wrong, either he is really just spoiled, or the parents simply are not being truthful. You mention him being skinny, whiney, and sickly. Does he have any other unusual behaviors besides his eating? Does he seem to have problems communicating? Problems relating to the other boys? Is he obsessive about things other than food? Does he hold extended conversations with himself? Does he have a problem with noises, lights, and different types of clothing? If he has problems in any of these areas then it is a very good possibility his parents are not being completely honest about his being undiagnosed. I would have an honest conversation with the parents on the importance of being kept in the loop on any health issues. If his eating habits (and his sicklyness from not eating properly) are his only problems, then I would concentrate on having him work with his Patrol to plan healthy campout menus that incorporate things he can eat. Besides fulfilling requirements, planning, preparing and cooking meals might very well help him deal with (or at least manage) his food issues.

My son is ADHD. ADHD does not impair memory. It impairs the ability to focus for an extended length of time. For some that length of time can be VERY short. There are things that you can do to help them with that. Their parents should have at least some idea of what works to help focus their child. For all 4 of these parents to state this early that there is NO WAY their sons will be able to earn Bobcat, Tiger, or any other badge in Scouting, sounds to me like what they want is baby sitting not Scouting. If your parents would simply open up the Tiger Handbook they would see that there is nothing all that complicated there. The boys do not have to memorize War & Peace, or even the Law of the Pack! What they DO have to do is to ACTIVELY work WITH their Tigers. Both in den meetings, and at home. They have to make sure their boys are doing THEIR BEST (not your best or their parents best). What works best with ADHD (and even non ADHD) kids? Repetition - Incorporate the Bobcat stuff in every den meeting. Between openings, closings, and transition times between activities, there are lots of opportunities. Change - Do the Sign and say the Promise (repeat after me type) at your opening flag ceremony. Then later on do a relay race where the Tiger Teams race each other to see who can tack up the words to the Promise in the right order first. Then later on have them print out the Law, Promise, or Motto, on something they are making (frame, bookmark, etc). You are reaching them with the same info in 3 different ways (vocal, sight, touch). Variety - Similar to change. Keep each activities short and sweet. Change up the tempo. Go from a stand up opening, to a sit down quiet activity, to a stand up activity, to a move around game, to a song, to a quieter activity, to a stand up closing with some movement (like Living Circle). Run the Tiger program the way it should be run. Tiger Teams (Tiger & Partner) work TOGETHER as a TEAM in everything. Teams take turns planning & running meetings. Hopefully, when these parents start to see their sons growing, and achieving things, they will get invested and involved. Meanwhile, you can only sign off on the activities that YOU know they did. Did they attend the Go-See-It to the Fire Department (great time for the Firemen to talk to them about a home fire drill!), or go on the hike? Did they make a leaf rubbing, or participate in a flag ceremony? Then you can sign those requirements off as having been completed. You can not simply give them a pass on the requirements. You can not sign them off on things that you have no knowledge that they did. The parents are responsible for working with their Tiger and signing off on the Family Requirements themselves. If the parents do not want to work with their sons, it is a shame, but you can NOT simply give away a rank award as if it were only a participation badge.

It is the job of the CC to work with the CM on the running of the Pack. Ideally, the CC, CM, and the DL's of the den involved should sit down and discuss weather or not a den needs splitting. With 16 Scouts, and 4 available leaders, this den should very definitely be split. Deciding on weather or not a den is split is not the job of the COR. The COR is a liaison between the CO, the unit, and the District/Council. The COR is a communicator, and a resource. The COR helps provide leadership. The COR is responsible for making sure the CO's unit is strong, healthy, growing, and meeting the Charter Organizations needs. The COR does not make program decisions unless the health of the unit is at stake. I would ask your CC to have a talk with the COR over a cup of coffee. The CC might also want to invite your Unit Commissioner to attend. The CC needs to find out exactly why the COR wants this den of 16 to stay together. The CC & UC should be prepared to explain the policies of the BSA regarding den size, and the problems involved in having such a large den. The CC should also explain that they are likely to LOSE BOYS if the den is not split. That is not healthy for the CO's unit. If this talk does not work things out, then I suggest the CC & UC have a cup of coffee with the head of your Pack's Charter Organization. Perhaps it is time for the CO to appoint a new COR.

What kind of Pack overnighter is it that you had to do extensive fundraising for? Have any of the families paid a down payment of any kind? Do you have Cub Scout accounts? Do any of the families have younger Scouts? Have you checked the calendar of the Troop(s) they are planning on going into to see if their Troop will be camping at the same time? Keeping a brand new Scout from bonding with his Patrol mates on his first Troop camping trip is not a good idea.

>>"a den might have new cubs without rank, bobcats, and wolves. Is this a wolf den?"

>>"About the popcorn, yeah, I'm not questioning the need for it, just the timing."

And what did the Webelos den leader say when you talked to him/her? What did the CM say? Requirements are meant to be done as written. I would do them on my own, only as a last resort. It is only October, there is plenty of time for them to finish up the AOL requirements, including the Troop meetings and outings. Talk to the Webelos DL again and ask if it would be OK if you set up an outing to a Boy Scout outdoor event (Fall Camporee?), or Troop meeting. Get a list of dates that would work for the den leaders. Have they finished all of their Activity Badges? If not, ask if they would mind if you contacted a Merit Badge Counselor to do the badge with the den. Give the DL suggestions of places to go that cover Webelos badges. Offer to set up the outing for the den.

Yep, 2 registered assistants are WAY better than none! BTW, make sure all of your leaders feel like they are a part of your den's leadership tram, not just an extra pair of hands, or a go-fer.

Nope, you can be registered in more than one unit. Heck, you can also be registered in any number of district/council level positions. It all depends on how much time you have to devote, and if you feel you can do all of the jobs well. Have Fun !

>>"We both messed up as did the boy."

The YP rule you are speaking about is the following from the Guide to Safe Scouting - "No one-on-one contact. One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths." You stated that, aside from the rest of the public who were there, there were 400+ Scouts and the Scouters/parents who accompanied them. It seems to me that the ASM and the Scout were "in full view" of a large number of both youth and adults. This is definitely NOT a YP issue in my mind. So, yes, I feel you are over reacting. Was this ASM's son in attendance? Did this young Scout not have any friends in the group? Have you talked to your SPL about helping the newbies integrate into the Troop so that they do not feel like outsiders? Is this ASM fully trained?

Where does BSA state that the SM must make a written recommendation for Eagle? This boy did not act alone when he left the camporee. Have you spoken this boy about his actions? Have you spoken to any of the other boys in the patrol about what they did? Have you spoken to the parent who picked them up? How can an entire patrol "sneak" out of camp? Did they leave their gear and tents? What, if anything, has been done about what happened at the camporee?

As long as the Scout has not yet finished 5th grade, Scoutnet will allow him to be registered as a Cub Scout, even if he is over 11. Many 5th graders (and even some 4th graders who have been held back) turn 11 before their council's recharter date.

From the Cub Scout Leader Book - "Although a Webelos Scout reaching age 11 or completing fifth grade and at least 10 years old is eligible to become a Boy Scout, he may remain in the pack for six months after his 11th birthday or until he completes fifth grade, whichever is later." This is pretty clear cut, and does not allow for any interpretation. By stating "WHICHEVER IS LATER", BSA allows for as much latitude as possible. However, the bottom line is, the end of Cub Scouting is EITHER 11.5 years old, OR the end of 5th grade. The ONLY exception would be for a Scout with disabilities.