ScoutNut

Why be satisfied with only those 3? Make nice with other Webelos den leaders in your area. Invite all local Webelos, from all local Packs, to a Troop Webelos evening or event, Also remember, even if those 3 boys are in a Pack under the same CO as your Troop, it is not automatic that they will cross to your Troop. Get out there and recruit!

Wanted to add, I second the plug for Alps! A great company. Also check out Coleman online. They have Scout discounts. Many outdoor stores offer discounts to Scouts. Ask at your local ones.

If your Troop supplies the tents and Patrol gear, then your immediate needs are a sleeping bag, ground pad, duffle, eating utensils, and possibly a dunk bag. For winter camping you need a bag rated to below 0. A mummy is usually warmer than a rectangle. If you can afford it, a bag system (usually 2+ bags together) is good. If not, a cold rated bag and a lightweight fleece blanket witll work. For cold weather a good pad is necessary. A self-inflating one like Thermarest is good. My son likes to pair that with a closed cell pad under it. Make sure the pad is long enough for your son. A good flashlight (many swear by head lamps), and he should be set. For a duffle, my son likes to use his Grandpa's Army duffle/backpack. It is large enough to fit everything, including his 4-person tent if needed. Of course, I don't know how large your son is, and it might be a bit to big for him. For the Klondike you could stick to a regular duffle and a plastic lawn bag for sleeping bag and pad to keep them dry.

Wow, not being scarcastic, or spitful, but I can really understand how you would feel that those Power Point slides could come across that way.

There is only one training for both den leaders and assistant den leaders. You should take the training for Webelos Cub Scout Leaders. While BSA is going to be moving toward a combined outdoor training for Webelos/Boy Scouts/Venturers, there has been no mention of when, exactly, it will become available. I certainly would not wait on the new training. If your council offers Webelos Outdoor Leaders Training, I would recommend taking it. Looking at your council's web site, it seems that you are in one of the council's that is doing the mandatory training pilot. That means that, hopefully, they should be offering more training to accomodate the needs of their leaders. You might consider attending your District's Roundtable and talking to the District Training Chair. From the website, it looks like the Central District is holding a Cub Scout Leader Training this Saturday. The Northeast is holding New Leader Essentials on April 27, and Cub Scout Leader Specific (you would need the Webelos portion) on April 29. While the Cub Scout program is changing, and online Leader Specific is supposed to be up and running by late Spring, early Summer, the Webelos program should not be changing much (if at all) because it already is den based. I think that because of the nature of the Webelos program, you might benefit more from a face to face training where you can ask the trainer questions.

Bear Dad, the policy is clear. It only gets muddled if you are trying to get around the rule. To have a PACK campout you need a BALOO trained person to plan it, from the get go, as a campout for the ENTIRE PACK. It needs to be planned, promoted, and run, by the BALOO trained leader, with the help and support of ALL of the rest of the Pack's leadership, as a camping overnighter for the ENTIRE PACK. The BALOO trained leader needs to have age appropriate activities planned for ALL of the youth that will be attending. If your PACK campout is planned, and run that way, it IS a PACK campout. It does not matter if only the families from a single den, or even just the BALOO leader's family, show up. However, in my experience, if a campout is truly promoted to the entire Pack, and everything is done to encourage the entire Pack to attend, you will NOT have only families from JUST one den attend. Scoutfish - I really don't know if you go in circles on purpose. The issue with your posts has NOTHING AT ALL to do with what constitutes a Pack vs den campout. The issue is that you keep stating that if a den goes on a den only camping trip that the Cub Scouts can not/should not get credit for anything that they do while on the trip. That is a load of bunk. That is NOT supported by ANY BSA literature, of any kind. A Cub Scout gets credit for EVERYTHING he does.

From the "Bobcat Bones" ceremony. Baking soda is the powdered bones of the Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, whatever. Vinegar is the "magic water" from someplace special. When mixed together, if the Scouts are truly worthy, the spirit of the Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, whatever, will be released. I use one container for the entire den, instead of a small container for each Scout. Less chance of the Scouts getting anything on themselves. Practice at home to get the optimal amount of baking soda vs vinegar to get a result that is easy for everyone to see, but not all over the floor (does not take a lot of each).

Yep, they like to be painted. Any of the "magic" ceremonies (glowing, changing colors, foaming "bones", etc) go over big also, especially if they have never seen them before.

What I would do next year (and done this year too) is to make them pay up front for their popcorn. If they have sold a lot, they can take it in chunks and pay for it as they go. I would also offer an opt out payment to not sell of whatever the Pack profit is on the Pack's per Scout sales goal (although this could get tricky if you do not offer this to every Scout).

Talk to the families. Find out the exact story. If they still have the popcorn, and can't get the customer to accept delivery and pay, I would ask for them to return the popcorn to you. Once you have the popcorn you can put it up for sale at the next Pack meeting, or even take it to work and sell it there. Set up a mini booth sale. If the problem is that the money is simply gone, the families need to be made perfectly aware that they are responsible for paying the Pack back. If the family does not have the abilty to pay for it in a lump sum, work with them and put together a payment plan. If the families refuse to pay at all, you could start charging them for everything there son gets. Including craft supplies and awards. No payment, a hearty handshake, but no award. Just a baggie with a note stating what he has compleated. Be aware that you will most likely loose the Scouts, and the money, if the familiy refuses to pay. If you have a good relation with your Charter Organization, I would definately contact them about this. They own your Pack and it is ultimately THEIR money. Perhaps a request for action might carry more weight when given by the head of your Charter Org, or your Charter Org Representative.

Your Pack ran BB and Archery belt loops at your Pack campout even though it was against BSA rules, and yet they still awarded the Scouts the belt loops. Why? Because they had earned them and it was not the Scouts fault the Pack did not follow BSA rules. So why shouldn't a Scout get recognition for work done at a den event, even if that den event is against BSA rules? A Scout gets credit for the work he does - PERIOD. It is not his fault if the adults around him are on their own adgenda. However - worst case - it is possible, if a unit makes a point of consistantly not following BSA's rules, guidelines, and program, that the Charter Organization might decide a change in leadership is called for. One of the requirements to be a CO is to follow BSA rules, regs, and program, so it is also possible for a CO to have their charter pulled by their Council.

Actually, what you stated was - "If all the parents of a particular den, just happen to decide to go camping...well. it's in the finer details. They can go, but it can't be recorded as a den campout nor can anybody get ant awards, pins, or loops or anything of that nature!" Cub Scout activities are allowed, and indeed currently encouraged, to be done at home with the family. They can also be completed in the community, or school. A Cub gets credit for what he does, no matter where, when, or with who, he does it. As for your doing BB and Archery at a Pack Campout, I am VERY suprised that the BALOO trained leader who planned, and ran the Pack overnighter had no knowledge that this was against BSA rules. It is VERY EXPLICITLY spelled out in a number of places, including the Guide to Safe Scouting. You can't even generally get the requirements for these belt loops. They are not included in the A&S Program Guide and it is explained in there WHY they are not included. Even the non-scout online places that give the requirements for the loops/pins put on the page a very visable disclaimer.

The point I am trying to make here Scoutfish, is that we here have absoultly no idea what it is that your son will be interested in, which electives/requirements will be to hard for him, which ones he will find boring, or which ones will spur a lifelong interest in him. What our kids liked, and didn't like really holds no value for you and your son. My son might love photography. Your son might be bored to tears. Your son might love to collect things. My son just collects dirty clothes. My son loves to tinker, and build things. Your son might prefer growing things to building them. My son is not a fan of magic, but he loves ropes, and knots of any sort. He had a blast with elective 13-D. Your son might hate ropes, and have a problem remembering the square knot for more than 5 minutes, but he might love to learn magic card tricks, and have a blast doing elective 13-A. We simply can't answer your question properly. All of the electives are age appropriate for a 3rd grader, so your son should have no problem completing any of them. All of the electives can be interesting, and fun. All are things he should be able to understand easily. To find electives your son will love, remember, and be worthwhile to him, talk to HIM. Have him pick out a few things that sound interesting to him, and spend a Sunday afternoon together exploring them.

Well, since I have not seen a "Breaking Things With Hammers" requirement in any of the BSA liturature (although the Craftsman Activity Badge might qualify!), I doubt that will be a problem. Actually, none of the requirements, or electives, are totally, or even partially, useless, or worthless. Some may have less interest to your son than others, but that does not make then worthless. Any/all of the them can be fun and intertesting to a Scout.

This is not college. Your son is not supposed to be treating Cub Scout Electives like each one is his doctorate in Scouting. They are supposed to be FUN little activities that help him to learn a BIT more about something that interests him. It does not matter what electives WE like. None of them are "important" to US. Your son, and what HE likes and is interested in, is what counts. If it interests HIM, if HE has FUN doing it, it will most certainly NOT be a waste of your time, or his. Even if he does not remember every single moment of it. Why not sit down with HIM and look at some of them - together. Remember, he can also count unused Bear requirements as Electives.

From the link YOU posted - Per BSA Guide to Safe Scouting - in BOLD print - "Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America." It does not matter if you include every family member of every boy in your den living in the surrounding 4 states, if you take just your Bear den on a camping trip, you are camping as a DEN - NOT as a PACK, and DEN camping is NOT ALLOWED BY BSA except by Webelos. Your Bear den can camp as part of a PACK campout, at a Council organized Family camp, and at a Council Resident Camp. I am VERY suprised your Pack's BALOO trained person did not know this.

My Pack also only asks for the initial registration fee. Rechartering is covered by the Pack and the Charter Org. The Pack has activities all summer, so the leaders see the boys a few times before September. Once regular den meetings start up again in September the den leaders contact any no-shows from the previous year. There are usually not a lot. Every now and again a Scout will move, divorce issues will interfear, the family decides their boy needs to concentrate on school and not outside activities, etc. Most of our dens usually retain all old members, or add on a few new ones. Now and then we will get a Tiger who registers and then disappears. This is usually because the family decides they can not make the commitment. We will typically keep them on the rolls if it looks like they will come back for Wolf Cubs. We recharter in December, and new Scouts have paid for a full year in Aug/Sept anyway, so it is really no big deal to recharter them. We have never had an entire den simply not return in September. Especially a 5th grade Webelos den looking forward to Boy Scouts. This would be a very big red flag. How many boys are you talking about? What happened to their den leader? Was there any indication of a problem from him/her? Did the den leader ever contact the CM, or CC, to let them know at least that their family would not be back?

Yep, that will happen. They can pay the bounty out of all the extra money in the state budget!

You will also not usually find a group of 35-50+ folks (Scouts or others) camping together in the public campgrounds of a County, State, or National Park, unless they have the entire campground rented out. In which case the park manager will be strictly overseeing everything. That is what the parks have "group" and "youth group" camping areas for. We have never had a problem with Park Rangers and our Scouts while camping. In fact, the Rangers usually go out of their way to help in what ever way they can.

A "power of attorney paper" is not required for any BSA overnighter. A Pack overnighter is primarly a family campout, and as such a parent should attend with their son. A Scout CAN attend a Pack overnighter with someone other than their parent/guardian, but a permission slip from the family is required, and the Scout can not sleep in the same tent. This should be the EXCEPTION, not the rule. For den meetings, other than Tiger meetings, it depends on your Pack, the den, and what the den leader wants. If the den is 10+ boys I would recommend at least 2, possibly 3, adults. With 3 adults, odds are you will have at least 2 at the meeting to herd those cats. If all (or a high %) of the 10+ Scouts are of the ADHD variety, the more adults the better. Actually, BSA recommends that dens be no bigger than 8 Scouts, so for a den of 10+, the CM & CC should be looking into splitting the den. For under 10, depending on the activity, and the Scouts, 2 adults should be good. For small dens of 3-4, again depending on how high maintainence the boys are, you could get by with only the 1 den leader. For den outings you are walking to from the meeting place, the same number of leaders who are at the meeting itself are good, as long as there is at least 2. For day den outings (Wolf level+) you are using transportation to get to, it would depend on what transportation you are using, where you are going, and what you will be doing. You should take the den leaders at the least. However, from my experience, a few extra adults to help drive, and herd, are usually very welcome. For Pack activities, the entire family should participate. For a group of 35 youth (Wolf level and up), going on a day activity, if you have a large bus, that can fit everyone (or you have each boy dropped off by his family), and you have no qualms over 2 people keeping track of 35 youth running wild, I say go for it. I would not send my son with you, because I do not like those odds, but I am sure some would. If you are transporting by car, you would need at least 6, 7-seater, mini vans. More if you have smaller cars. That would mean at least 6 adults. For Council, or District, events, most use the ratio of 1 adult for every 5 youth with a 2 adult minimum. Tigers are ALWAYS one on one. (This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

If it was the policy of the Jr Ranger program that every youth had to have a parent present, I really doubt that WCScouter would be posting his question here. They would simply include that requirement in their planning without any discussion, or disagreement, about it at all. However, he stated that their Pack WAS having a disagreement over requiring a parent with every Scout. WCScouter - It sounds like this is a day activity only (not part of a Pack overnighter which has different rules). In that case, as others have said, other than for Tigers, there is no BSA requirement that a parent attend the outing with their Scout. However, as others have also said, Cub Scouts is family oriented. A Jr Ranger program is usually open to everyone. Why would your Pack consider not taking parents? Unless the park has a restriction on the number of people attending the program (most simply give you a list of requirements to complete on your own), or they are charging a fee, and the Pack is paying it, Why not include the entire family, and make a Pack fun family day of it? Even if you don't invite the entire family, encouraging a parent to come with their Scout simplifies the whole transportation (and two-deep) issue. If there are some Scouts whose parents can not attend, they can make arrangements for their son to go with one of his buddies and his parent. A simple permission form for each Scout stating who he is going with is all that you should need.

How about The Jungle Book? Most Scouts have never read the book, and don't understand the connection to Scouting. Plus it is a good movie for the entire age range. Make sure to get a signed parental permission slip for which ever movie you decide on.

The problem here is NOT if we agree that ski helments are needed or not. Personally, I think that if you are skiing, on your own, or with your family, you can go bareheaded if that is what you wish. However, contrary to what you stated, because you are going as a group of BSA Venturers, with a BSA Tour Permit, this IS, most definately, a BSA event. Wheather we agree with them or not, as BSA Leaders we have promised to follow all BSA rules. So, we are NOT "just spouting the BSA policy because that is all you know to do." Most of us know how to do a lot more. Most of us know how to set an example for the youth in our care. Most of us know how to make sure the youth in our care stay as safe as we, and BSA, can make them. What do you plan on telling the parents of a child in your care if something happens to them because you did not want to follow a rule you consider "silly"? Get over it. Rent the darn helmets.

How is finding a way around BSA regulations helping these young men and women learn to make ethical choices, or to live by the Venturing Oath and Code? Instead, why not simply rent ski helmets? I saw ski helment rentals listed online at a place in Gaitlinburg for $8.

As Kathy stated, GSUSA is way different from BSA. Safety Wise is the GSUSA version of Guide to Safe Scouting. It lists all of the rules and regs that a Troop should follow. Since the local council owns its GS Troops, it is the council's responsibility to approve Troop meeting places. If there is a question of suitability, the Troop should talk to their Council Service Rep and get the situation "formally" approved (or denied) as a meeting place for the girls. Since the Troop can't seem to agree, that seems to be the best way for them to go. That would put the decision for their moving on the council, and not on the Troop leaders ("sorry, its not us, it's council's rule"). That would also help protect the relationship between the church and the Troop.