ScoutNut

Yep, only activities done while they are a registered member of BSA can count toward BSA awards. Also, only activities done while in a specific Cub level, can count toward that level's rank, or elective requirements. Otherwise you would have folks claiming that something their son did as a 2 year old could count toward their Bear rank award. Or a craft done as a Tiger could count toward Webelos Craftsman. Now, if the boy was a registered Cub Scout last year, at the time he was also playing Soccer, than yes, if he did not receive a Soccer belt loop at that time, he would be eligible to receive one now. HOWEVER, unless he was a Webelos Cub Scout last year, the Soccer belt loop would NOT meet the requirement for the Webelos Sportsman Activity Badge for this year.

Irsap, you stated - "The last thing I want an AOL/Crossover to be about is me. It's for the boys, they earned it and it's their big step." The boys earned the AOL. They did not "earn" crossing to Boy Scouts. That is something that can happen even without the AOL. Yes, moving to Boy Scouts is a big step for them, but it is also a big step for you. Keep the AOL portion separate from the Crossover portion. After the boys have all received their awards, and crossed to their respective Troops, have the CM do an announcement similar to what Mike suggests. Then you can cross to be greeted by an adult leader representative from your new Troop. I think it will be a fitting ending to the ceremony.

We have had the leaders cross too if they are going to be volunteering with the Troop. They cross after the boys have all gone across. Usually there is a comment that Mr/Mrs XYZ will also be joining Troop 123. They cross and are met by the Troop adult(s) with a handshake and sometimes their new tabs. I feel it is a nice thing to acknowledge the adults also, and takes nothing away from the boys ceremony.

Never hold onto awards. The Cubs earned them, they deserve to get them as soon as possible. Never do awards while eating, or waiting in line to eat. No way will the kids, or parents, want to loose their place in the food line just to get an award! Before or after works. We get the food stuff out of the way first, then do the awards after everyone is done (or at least sipping coffee and munching on dessert). That way most of the Scouts are there by then, and ready to participate.

Our local Y' charters a Pack. They have not branched out to a Troop yet.

Not to continue to hijack this, but the worldwide Girl Guide / Girl Scout Movement is a youth movement for girls created by B-P, and his sister. The Boy Scout Movement is a youth movement, also created by B-P, that was originally just for boys, but has branched out to be co-ed. Both Worldwide organizations, and Movements, are considered to be a part of the worldwide overall Scouting Movement. GSUSA considers itself to be part of the Girl Scout Movement. I really do not see how calling a Girl Scout a Guide makes her any less a Scout. As to Lincoln's question - The requirement also states that the Scout needs the approval of his merit badge counselor, and that the Scout must contact the organization to find out what he, and other youth, can do to help. It is completely up to the MBC. Why would the MBC, new or old, consult with the Scout's parents on what to accept for MB requirements? They are supposed to know their stuff for any badge they are a counselor for. If a MBC asked me, first I would be a bit leery as to the effectiveness of said counselor, and I would tell them that it was THEIR CALL AS COUNSELOR. While Nike's Girl Scout Council might put restrictions on boys/men serving as volunteers, not all do. The MBC should make sure the Scout contacts the organization (council) itself (as stated in the requirement), and not just his sisters troop leader, to find out what is allowed/needed. Personally, there are many charitable organizations out there, and so many ways to help, if I was the MBC I would encourage the Scout to get involved in something new to him. Also, since he will only be committing to 8 hours of service, an event of some kind might work better. Perhaps, if he is set on volunteering with the Girl Scouts, the council could steer him toward a local Bronze, Silver, or Gold project that could use some help. Remember, the requirement is to find an organization that INTERESTS the Scout. Not one that takes the least amount of trouble.

We do pot-luck with around 40 boys for our Christmas Pack meeting. B&G we have catered in with families bringing deserts. For pot-luck the Pack usually will usually "bring" a main entree (usually chicken or a try of pasta). We let the families know how big a portion they should bring, and we make it perfectly clear that they need to let the CM or CC know IN ADVANCE if they will not be able to bring their dish. Notes are sent out a few days in advance reminding everyone what they signed up for. Having servers is a good idea. They not only help with portion control, but can hurry folks thru. Make it clear that seconds are only allowed once everyone has gone thru once. Call tables in groups. When the last group is up at the tables for firsts, announce that folks can go up for seconds. The favorites will always go fast. We very seldom have anyone take home many leftovers! Yes, we have had some evenings that went better than others, but that is part of it! We always have fun and never go home hungry. Anytime you have dinner, of any kind, you are going to add some time to the evening. We allow for that in our planning, and also schedule those meetings on Fridays or Saturdays, when the kids do not have school the next day.

The Age Appropriate Guidelines are for cooking outdoors and fire building only. Both of those activities are recommended for Webelos and above. You stated you could not find anything in the Cub Scout Leader Book on campfires. I would suggest you look again. There are segments on campfire safety and campfire programs. Not knowing specifically what you are planning on doing, I would say that if all you are doing is sitting around a fire, you should be fine. Campfires are a fun part of the Cub Scout Outdoor program. However, following BSA policies on fire safety, and using common sense, is a must.

Actually Girl Scouts are indeed Scouts. The "Scouts" in their name is a clue. If they were Guides they would be called Girl Guides. GSUSA is in a separate world organization from BSA that is single sex (instead of co-ed) and includes Girl Guides, but that does not make girls in GSUSA Guides. BSA - member of WOSM - World Organization of the Scout Movement GSUSA - member of WAGGGS - World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts

ghermanno, As I posted, the quote came from the BSA Cub Scout Leader Book. It was the most current, but I believe that has been the policy for quite some number of years now. Yes, if you have a special needs Scout, you could very well have someone who is 22, in 5th grade, and still a Cub Scout. An 11 year old 4th grade Webelos is not all that uncommon. There should be no problem rechartering him the next 2 years.

One of the responsibilities of a Charter Organization is to conduct the Scouting program according to the policies and guidelines of the BSA. The Cub Scout program is flexible. The Charter Org can shape it somewhat to reflect it's own policies, and the needs of it's members. However, ultimately, the program is BSA's, and BSA sets the standards. The Cub Scout Leader Book states, in a shaded box so it stands out - All aspects of Cub Scouting and its activities must comply with the policies and procedures of the BSA. Nothing in any BSA literature suggests that the Pack Committee dictates it's own (or it's CO's) program, and advancement standards to the Cubmaster, who then dictates them to the rest of the members of the Pack.

The Tiger program is set up so that the Tiger Cub Scout and his Adult Partner form a team, a Tiger Team. This team concept is described in the parent section in the beginning of the Tiger Handbook. I believe that teams are also mentioned in Tiger Fast Start. The Cub Scout Leader Book explains this in the chapter on the Tiger Cub program. I do not remember if the term "team" is used for the Tiger and his Partner in the current (2009) Tiger den leader specific training syllabus. A Tiger and his Adult Partner MUST do everything together, including go on outings. If you are not allowing a parent of a Tiger to go on an outing because they have not taken the online training yet, then YES, the boys ARE being penalized. I can understand, and agree with, requiring registered Cub Scout adults to be trained, but not every parent in your Pack. That is over the top. As is, in my opinion, requiring Wood Badge to camp with the Troop. By the way, why is Wood Badge not required for Cub Scouters also?

If you have a "number" of Bears (more than just 1) who will be turning 11, than I would hazard that it has more to do with your school system possibly changing it's cutoff dates in the past 3-4 years, than all of the Scouts being held back a grade. Per the BSA Cub Scout Leader Book - A boy can remain a Cub Scout in a Pack for 6 months after his 11th birthday, or until he has completed 5th grade, whichever is LATER. If the boys are fitting in well with their class, and den, mates, are having fun, and have been doing fine for the last 1-3 years, why fix what is not broke? Making these boys move to Boy Scouts as 4th graders, without any of the preparation of the Webelos program, is a sure way to get them to leave Scouting altogether.

Bear Dad, You have stated that you don't think that anything is going to make this dad and his son happy. If my son had joined up with the perception that he would be going camping right away, and then found out it was not so, my son might be a bit upset, yes. However, if I, as his parent, found out that the reasons that camping would not be done instantly was because 1) The Pack was brand new and needed some time to sort out start-up issues, including financial issues, 2) BSA safety policies had to be met first, and 3) the Pack needed (as part of the safety policies) someone trained to plan/run campouts, I would be understanding and explain to my son that he would get to camp soon, and to enjoy the rest of the program in the meantime. If we were a family who enjoyed the outdoors, had experience camping, and had our own equipment, I would most likely take the family on a campout, or two, and brush up son on camping skills, while waiting for the Pack to get things going. If I was REALLY interested in getting my son out camping, I would volunteer to take the BALOO training myself, as soon as possible, to insure that my son could go camping with the Scouts as soon as possible. It sounds to me like this family of yours is simply looking for an excuse to leave Scouting, and the camping thing is going to be their excuse. That happens sometimes. Not a whole lot you can do about it. Just continue to make sure that the boys in your den get the best program you can give them, and have fun.

"All parents at the pack level have to have safe swim, safety afloat, weather hazards and youth protection." While these courses are online, and relatively easy to do, that is not how the Cub Scout program is set up. The Cub Scout program currently is FAMILY driven. That is also not what National is requiring. What do you do with parents who do not have a computer at home, or do not have internet? What about Tiger Teams? Are you penalizing the youth because of this? "At the troop level, all of the above, event specific, plus Wood Badge in order to go on outings with the boys." What is "event specific"? I sure hope your Troop pays the $200+ for each parent in the Troop to take Wood Badge!

Because in the case of shooting sports there is no confusing message. In order to understand something you need to read the ENTIRE document. Not just take one line and make up your own policies, rules, or guidelines. While the Age-Appropriate Guidelines do state that - "Because of the varying development rates among youth, these activity guidelines are flexible and should not be perceived as requirements or rules." However, it also states, very clearly, in the same document under Archery and BB's - "Council/District Outdoor Programs Only" for all Cub Scouts. This is the same for canoeing, motor boating, rafting, rowing, and sailing. That does not seem to allow for any kind of waffling under regional differences. The Age Appropriate Guidelines also state that the policies and procedures in the Guide to Safe Scouting must be followed. Guide to Safe Scouting - Cub Scouting Standards for Guns and Firearms - in BOLD TYPEFACE - "Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level." There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about that. By the way - The reference to "surfing" in the Age Appropriate Guidelines says nothing about CUB Scouts is states - "On the West Coast and Gulf Coast, surfing may be appropriate for BOY Scouts." There are also quite a lot of rules and regulations in the Guide to Safe Scouting that must be followed for ANY kind of swimming, or non-swimming, aquatic activity. To generalize, make sweeping, broad, unrealistic examples, and then declare that it is OK to do what you want, and go against BSA policy first, and ask "forgiveness" later does a BIG disservice to the program, and encourages any new Scout families and leaders who might be reading your comments that this is the way to do things.

Scoutfish posted- "I'm saying if a scout doesn't hardly care about doing something right, doesn't necessarily do what he is supposed to and cries about not getting an advancement - and he can overturn( meaning NATIONal does) it without National even asking the troop why they denied advancement...." Where on earth do you get this idea? Making generalized statements based on rants from members of this forum, without any first hand knowledge of what you speak of is not a good way to go. From the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures booklet - "All requests for appeal shall be made in writing, signed by the Scout and/or his parent(s) or guardian(s), and shall set forth in detail the reasons for requesting an appeal." AND "Upon initial receipt of an appeal, the district and the council advancement committee charged with hearing the initial appeal shall provide for a prompt review to determine the facts. All parties must be interviewed or written statements obtained." AND "A written report setting out all details of the appeal and the reasons for the committees decision shall be prepared and forwarded to the council Scout executive. A copy shall be furnished to the Scout bringing the appeal." AND FINALLY - "Appeals to the national Boy Scout Committee shall be processed through the local council, and the local council shall furnish copies of all pertinent documentation to the national committee, including a statement of the councils position on the matter." If a BOY SCOUT (Cub Scouts do NOT have any kind of similar appeal process) advancement is appealed, and it goes all the way to the National Boy Scout Committee, you can be assured that National knows full well why the Troop, District, and Council, have all denied the advancement.

A volunteer can not be REGISTERED in both the Den Leader and the Pack Trainer positions at the same time, in the same unit. A volunteer can DO both positions at once if necessary, but they can not be REGISTERED as both.

"we have to be honest. In only a small percentage of units where adults have worked very, very hard at it is the current uniform something lads are "proud" of. And even then, odds are they aren't proud enough of it to wear it to school." I don't think it is as simple as "not proud enough". It has more to do with the pluses and minuses to looking "different", and things that they can control. I also do not think it has anything to do with pressure to smoke, do drugs, or any other illegal thing. Wearing a Scout uniform is not illegal. For Cubs, for many, wearing the uniform is new, fun, and sets them apart as someone special. This is especially true if the Cubs attend a private school where they wear a uniform every day. They stand out. By the time they get to middle school, standing out is no longer such a rush. Lets face it kids can be cruel. There is no way that a kid (even the most self confident kid in the school) is going to invite teasing. High school is an entirely different world. At this point, some kids like being different. They like standing out. But the way they stand out is not by wearing a uniform. Good grief, look at those ROTC kids! No way do they want to be associated with that! So what do they do? The declare their independent spirit by looking like every other Greaser, Punk, Skater, or Goth, around. These kids are not succumbing to peer pressure to do drugs and smoke. They are succumbing to peer pressure to "be themselves". Unfortunately it will be a few years yet before they realize just what that is. Does all of this mean that these kids are "bad" Scouts because the wearing (or not wearing) of their Scout uniform is one of the few things they have control over in their young, hormonal, lives? Does this mean that they will turn to drugs, tobacco, and alcohol? Absolutely not! Once my son started middle school he would have to be dressed at the point of a gun to wear his BSA uniform to school. My daughters GSUSA (no such animal as GSA!) Troop changed their meeting day/time just so that they did not have to wear their uniforms to school. As a matter of fact they pretty much stopped wearing it altogether unless it was an "official" Scout event of some kind. Son discovered buddies in both middle and high school were Scouts. They were not shy, reticent, or ashamed to talk about Scouting. It just was not the top subject of lunch room conversation. They were usually discovered to be Scouts when a service project came up, or when they mentioned a fun trip in passing. Then it was - oh hey, you're a Scout, me too, unit #123 out of so and so. Then on to bigger, and more interesting things. The same was true for my daughter. They were both Scouts, and if you pried beneath the teen angst and attitude, you would find they were proud of their part in Scouting. They just did not see the need to announce it to the entire world (aka-their school). They both stayed in their Scouting programs until they aged out. Son did not make it to Eagle. Daughter earned the Girl Scout Gold Award (and Silver), and is now a Lifetime GSUSA member, although she does not want to be active. Son stayed on for a while as an adult volunteer. I can see him being an active volunteer later on. He would enjoy taking the training to become a Shooting Sports Range Officer for camp. Uniform is only ONE method. None of the methods are more important than any other. How the youth turns out is the important thing, and the reason we all got into this in the first place. One last thing to consider. When was the last time you wore your Scout uniform to work for the entire day? (This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

Ummm, where, exactly, does BSA state that a Scout can not be removed from a position for bullying?

I prefer ScoutManage. It is all online so there is no CD that must be passed around to upload program on everyone's computers.

Sorry - Double post!(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

bear dad - The link from Greaves, which you quoted from, also includes the following - " * Loops and pins for archery and BB-gun shooting can be earned only in day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or at council activities where there is properly trained supervision, and all guidelines for BSA shooting sports are implemented. Archery and BB-gun shooting belt loops and pins cannot be earned at the pack, den, or individual level. Requirements therefore are not included." This states, quite clearly, that archery and BB's are considered SHOOTING SPORTS, and not something to be done at the PACK, DEN, or INDIVIDUAL level. So, belt loops or not, NO it is NOT OK to do any kind of archery, or BB's at a den meeting. There are plenty of fun, outdoor and indoor, things you can do with your Scouts that do not go against BSA rules or policies. Speaking of BSA policies - about that ride on your boat you are planning, The BSA Guide to Safe Scouting, Aquatics Safety, under Safety Afloat, states - "Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council or district events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions)." A good thing to do, before you start planning den, or Pack activities, is to check out the Guide to Safe Scouting. BSA has an online version at their National web site - http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx Then contact your council to see if they have any additional requirements, or rules, about the activity you would like to plan.

I agree with others. The choice is not really up to the adults. It is the boys who will be the ones in the thick of the program. Unless there is an extremely good, overriding, reason to go with one Troop over the other, go with the boys choice. I also would not join a particular Troop with the idea that you can always transfer out at any time. Not realistic. Once the boys have made friends, and settled in, it will be much harder to move. Unless you simply play the adult card over what the boys want.

Perhaps the bar is not for units founded this year, but for those units that have been around since 1910. A Founder Veterans Bar makes much more sense for them.