ScoutNut

Good grief, calm down Eagle732. Mike's post, and many of the previous posts, have absolutely nothing to do with you, the original poster, or her son. This topic is going nowhere fast. At this point the only reason for it to still be active, is to see just how long it can stay active, not stay on topic (the original topic played out long ago). As the post DYB-Mike was responding to states - "Lets keep it going, we only have 23 Days and we have been keeping this beast alive for 1 YEAR. If you have been reading these forums for any length of time (I think 10 minutes would do it) you should have noticed that the subjects of BSA combined with homosexuality, and/or atheism, tends to cause lots of chatter. And, Eagle732, enough chatter to bring this topic to the 1 year mark is the ENTIRE object of posting at this point.

The requirements do not state that the showers have to be in the campsite. Or within any specific distance. Just that there should be showers available. In most State/Federal parks with campgrounds, there are shower facilities somewhere in the park. They can usually be found in the area reserved for trailer camping. All Council camps that allow Cub camping must have showers somewhere on the grounds or their camp will not be certified for Cub camping. Sanitary bathroom facilities are a must, and NOT just for the moms. Neither adult, or youth, males, should be exposing themselves in public. Even if they are in the middle of bushes hidden from sight. That is a Youth Protection nightmare waiting to happen.

He could also write that, due to safety concerns (you mentioned "skilled" labor needs), ONLY people actually working on the project should be in the area. Or Due to the fact that this is NOT a Troop project, and requires more skilled help, ONLY those people actually working on the project should be there. Therefore, providing alternate activities, or babysitting, for non-working youth is not necessary to the project plan. Good luck to your son!

Crossover is moving from one BSA program (Cub Scouts) to a different BSA program (Boy Scouts). This is usually done by the 5th grade Webelos in February or March at a fancy ceremony which includes reps from the BS Troops they are "crossing" into. Graduation is when all of the Cub Scouts "graduate" from one Cub level to the next (Tiger to Wolf, etc). This happens at the end of the school year, usually in late May, early June, and is usually done with a fun ceremony. We give the Scouts their new Handbooks and scarves at this ceremony. BSA National's computer system, ScoutNet, uses June 1st as the national graduation date for all Cub levels, and is when newly graduated kindergarteners are allowed to register as Tiger Cub Scouts.

Webelos are very definitely CUB SCOUTS. All Cub Scout rules, regulations, and guidelines apply to them. As I stated, there are 3 distinctly different age appropriate programs that make up the overall Cub Scout program - Tiger Cub Scout (Wolf/Bear) (I guess BSA could rename this Middle Scouts, or some other such group name) Webelos Would you state that Webelos are not "integrated"?

Integration does NOT mean that everyone is doing the same thing, and needs the same training. BSA uses 3 - DIFFERENT - AGE APPROPRIATE - programs for Cub Scouts. So, BSA has 3 different trainings for the 3 different Cub Scout programs. Tiger Cub Scout program - An Adult Partner MUST participate along side their Tiger. Three different types of Achievement requirements, Den, Family, and Go See It. Shared Leadership. Wolf/Bear Cub Scout program - Adults no longer required to attend with Scout, no more adult/Scout teams. No separate requirements specifically for families, although (currently) families are encouraged to work on requirements at home. More choices for the YOUTH to make (currently). Webelos Cub Scout program - Parents are no longer able to sign off on any and all requirements. All advancement is approved by the Webelos den leader, or an adult approved by the den leader. No more Immediate Recognition beads. Activity Badges instead of misc requirements. Can camp as a den. Encouraged to attend Boy Scout activities. There is nothing wrong, or questionable about it. Would your training as a Webelos den leader have helped you be a good Wolf den leader? The same is true for Tigers. Your training for Wolf/Bear/Webelos will not help you run a Tiger program.

From the BSA Guide to Safe Scouting - >>"A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult.">"When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his own parent or guardian.">"Webelos den overnight campouts are parent-son events, under the direction of the Webelos den leader.....In most cases, each Webelos Scout is under the supervision of his own father, mother, or guardian. If a parent or guardian cannot attend, the boys family should make arrangements for one of the other parents or another adult relative or friend to be a substitute at the campout. It is essential that each Webelos Scout is under the supervision of an adult and that every adult has a share of the responsibility for the campout."

"Selecting Cub Scout Leadership" #510-500, can be found at your local Council Scout Shop or online at the BSA National Web site - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-500.pdf Basically, what it says is that a list is put together of people who best meet the criteria needed in the person who will be doing a specific job. These people are then ranked from 1 to ##, with 1 being the person that is considered the BEST candidate for the job. The candidates are then approached FACE-TO-FACE, starting with #1, with all info about the job, and every effort is made to convince him/her to serve the Pack in the position needed. If the first candidate declines, you go on down the list until one of the candidates accepts. This is the method I have used for the last 10+ years, and it works. You end up with someone you WANT as a leader instead of any warm body who might not be really interested in doing the job. As far as training goes, I would suggest that you start getting your leaders to training. Mandatory training IS COMING in the next 2 years. When that happens, if your leaders are not trained, your unit could very well loose their Charter.

Do a Google search on - BSA crossover ceremony. You get back 507,000 results. Lots of places on the 'net that have ceremonies. Pick one you like and use it. Pick a few, and combine the parts that you like, have the resources for, feel fit your boys, etc. Campfire ceremonies are always fun. Being dark is a good thing for a campfire ceremony. If it rains, move it indoors. Ask if the Pack, or the Troop your Webelos are going to, has a fake campfire. Many units have electric campfires as ceremony props. I think between out Pack, and Troop, we have 3. With crossover the day after tomorrow, you don't have the time to put together much of anything fancy. Get on the internet and look up ceremonies. You should be able to find something nice you can whip together. But you need to start NOW!

The Cub Scout program, as it now stands, was built around the family. Family Understanding is one of the purposes of Cub Scouting, and Family Involvement is one of it's methods. As stated in many BSA sources (USScouts, while very good is not BSA), most of the work on requirements should be done at home with the family. From the BSA National Web site - >>"The advancement plan is designed for parents to use to create a learning environment in their home. With the Cub Scout handbooks as a resource, parents and boys work together to do the achievements required for each badge. The advancement plan provides fun for the boys, gives them a sense of personal achievement as they earn badges, and strengthens family understanding as adult family members work with boys on advancement projects. WHILE CUB SCOUTS WILL LEARN SKILLS AND BEGIN WORK ON PROJECTS IN THEIR WEEKLY DEN MEETINGS, the parent remains at the center of the advancement program. As each task is done or each skill is demonstrated, the parent signs the Cub Scout's handbook to record its completion. And when the boy has completed all the requirements to earn an award, the parent presents that award at the next monthly pack meeting.">"In a pilot study of 21 dens in Bay-Lakes Council using this program, the retention rate of Cub Scouts went from 64% to 85%. In packs where some of the dens were using the program and other dens were not, the retention increased significantly for those using the program and did not increase for those not using the program.">"Those who have used this program have found that family participation increases because so many of the achievements and electives in the handbooks call for family participation."

Actually, without earning their AOL, a Cub Scout can NOT become a Boy Scout (crossover) until he has EITHER reached 11 years old, or completed 5th grade. So, for those of you considering "crossing over" Webelos to Boy Scouts this month, if they have not earned AOL yet, they MUST be 11 years old, or they have to remain Cub Scouts. The policy for remaining a Cub Scout is as follows from the Cub Scout Leader Book - "Although a Webelos Scout reaching age 11 or completing fifth grade and at least 10 years old is eligible to become a Boy Scout, he may remain in the pack for six months after his 11th birthday or until he completes fifth grade, whichever is later." Note, he would be a CUB Scout, not a BOY SCOUT.

Yep, I agree with Oak Tree. First you state you are overwhelmed then you state you have all positions filled. If you are that overwhelmed then you do need more help, that usually means more registered help. You can track the online training of unregistered volunteers easily enough. Have them print out a copy of the form at the end of their online training, and give it to you. If you, and your CO, are that concerned with doing background checks on all adults who have any kind of contact with the Scouts, then your only option is to require that all parents register as Committee Members. Committee members do not have to have a specific job function. If the Troop does require this, you might consider including the cost of those registrations in the Troop budget, and have the Troop pay for them.

I'm a bit confused. May IS graduation for all Cub Scouts. Or more accurately, Graduation is usually the last Pack meeting of the school year, which is usually May, or June. That is when the Cub Scouts move to their new Cub level (Tiger to Wolf, etc). Earning rank awards has nothing to do with Graduation. Cub Scouts can earn their rank award at any time during the year. February's Blue & Gold birthday celebration makes a great goal for the Scouts and their families to aim for. I find that having a goal helps to keep them focused. However, rank awards (and any other awards) should be presented to a Cub Scout as soon as possible after he has completed all of the requirements, and not be held until B&G, or Graduation.

>>" My son is scheduled to receive his First Class rank at next week's COH. We've only been told they have to complete 5 activities, camping out was not mentioned."

Of course, National telling you to talk to council could always mean that they are tired of being questioned about an appeal your council never forwarded to them at all.

The "regs" on defining active are not really very new. They have been re-worded slightly, but are basically the same as what was published in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book in 2008, and what was the policy even earlier. Now granted, I definitely do not know everything, but what I do know is that if National tells you to talk to Council about an appeal, that means that National has made their decision and has let council know what it is. National will NEVER return an appeal to the council level undecided. That rather defeats the purpose. National's appeal decision is final, and can not be changed by council, district, unit, or be subject to further appeals.

Are any of the boys advancing? Are there new boys joining? Are they advancing? If your Troop does no tent camping, my question would be - how are these boys advancing? Tenderfoot requirement # 2 - Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch. 2nd Class requirement # 3a - Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight. 2nd Class requirement # 3b - On one of these campouts, select your patrol site and sleep in a tent that you pitched. 1st Class requirement # 3 - Since joining, have participated in 10 separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight. Demonstrate the principles of Leave No Trace on these outings. The Camping MB is required for Eagle. Have any of the boys earned it? There is nothing wrong with doing SOME cabin camping. However doing ONLY cabin camping, or lock-ins, will not fulfill rank requirements. It is the job of the Troop leadership to provide a good, balanced, program. Even if all of the boys say they are not interested in advancement (unlikely), the Troop should be providing opportunities for those who may decide they want to reach Tenderfoot some day. Of course, the Troop might just be signing boys off on the pitching/sleeping in tent requirements, without actually requiring them to do so.

Most councils that I have seen only require a Scout to recruit 1 paid youth. That is for both the strip and the patch. My council has no formal requirements at all for the strip. It is left up to the individual unit. Similar to the BSA Attendance Award. Personally, I have no problem with that.

>>"By this you are lead to believe that they can not start earning the AOL till they are done with 4th grade."

You have the facilities, you have the program, and you have 3 weeks. Sign up as a Wilderness Survival Merit Badge Counselor, and open it up to the District, or even the entire Council. Contact your Council ASAP and get the info and sign up sheets out there to the other Troops. Why waste the opportunity?

The Doctorate of Commissioner Science Award also has no tenure restriction. A person who is registered as a Pack Trainer during 2 of the 5 years they were also registered as a member of the Commissioner Service, would satisfy the tenure requirement for both awards.

The progress record for the Cub Scouter Award specifically states - "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award. The progress record for the Commissioner Key / Arrowhead Award specifically states - "Tenure for one award cannot be used for other training awards." The Pack trainer Award has no listed tenure restriction. So, even though the Pack Trainer has no restriction on tenure, both the Cub Scouter, and the Commissioner does. The 2 years tenure used for Cub Scouter can NOT be used also for Trainer, or Commissioner. Likewise, the 3 years tenure for Commissioner can not also be used for Trainer, or Cub Scouter. You can use the tenure for Pack Trainer for any of the awards that also have no restriction on the use of their tenure. These would include the Boy Scout Leader's Training Award, any of the Varsity awards, and the Venturing Adviser's Key.

>>"there will still be great Den Leaders who advance their boys and make the program fun and there will be not-so-great Den Leaders who just squeak by on their own."

Being eligible to receive AOL in February of 4th grade is rare. So that would not be an option for most dens. I agree with having 2 separate ceremonies, 1 for AOL, and 1 for Crossover to Boy Scouting. However, it should be up to the den (meaning the BOYS) if the ceremonies happen at entirely different Pack meetings, or at the same one.

You asked what positions are "required" to charter a new Troop. The minimum registered/paid positions are - 1 - Charter Organization Representative who is also registered as Committee Chair 1 - Scoutmaster 2 - Committee Members That is a MINIMUM of 4 paid adults. There also needs to be a minimum of 5 paid youth. The solution for uniforming is to have 2 shirts, and to wear the one that is for the main position you are filling at the moment. The Webelos den leader, who is also an ASM, should wear his Webelos den leader uniform when camping with his den, even if they are camping with the Troop he is an ASM for. When he is with his Cub Scouts THEY are his primary responsibility, not the Boy Scouts.