ScoutNut

It is PACK FAMILY camping, not camping with family and friends. Your Pack should make it plain that Pack activities include Pack members, families of Pack members, youth and their families that the Pack is recruiting to be Pack members, and possibly District volunteers (like your UC). That is it. Tell the family to invite their guests on their own private trip. Cub Scout camping is not a free vacation camping club.

Ummm, OGE, while the education system of MN is fascinating, I believe that what you wanted to post was the following - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf There is a section in the BSA Troop Committee Guidebook that addresses behavior problems. It states the following - "OCCASIONALLY the troop COMMITTEE may be asked by the SCOUTMASTER to deal with a problem which might involve disciplinary action or a health issue of an individual youth or adult member. These issues should be dealt with in strict confidence. If the subject concerns a Scout, his parents should be fully informed of the issue." "Because serious or recurring behavioral problems may require the troop COMMITTEE'S involvement, the SCOUTMASTER should share discipline problems with the committee. Such problems should be addressed in a firm, fair manner with the goal to integrate the youth into the Scouting program. Problems that may lead to a youth's permanent removal from the troop should be handled by the SCOUTMASTER and the troop COMMITTEE, and should involve the Scout's parents or guardians. TOGETHER, the troop COMMITTEE, parents AND SCOUTMASTER should work toward a solution with the troop's best interests in mind." Notice it states the COMMITTEE as a WHOLE, NOT just the Chair. Your Charter Organization "owns" your troop. It is the COR, and the IH who have the only "unilateral" hiring and firing power. That is why your SM did not stay "fired" before. This CC seems to have power issues. Just another reason the COR needs to be at any meeting for this issue!

5scoutmom, when I mentioned people being responsible for their actions, I was speaking about the adults involved, not your son. From your description (which yes is only one side), the adults in this acted just as badly as your son did. I feel that how this incident is/was handled is important to the overall health of the Troop. Any meeting, beyond a SM Conference, should include the COR.

Since the council owns the Troop, it was their decision to make. To bad it took the council so long to make it's decision. Hopefully your Troop has found an alternate meeting location.

5scoutmom, it is VERY important that a representative from your Charter Organization be there. You may not want anyone punished, but just like in your son's case, actions have repercussions. All people, adult and youth, should be held responsible for their actions.

A BALOO trained camping/outing chair. Here is a BSA document to help you in recruiting leadership for your Pack - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-500.pdf

Call your COR, explain the situation, and make sure he is at this meeting. The COR has the REAL power in this situation, and can stop the "adviser" cold from running rough shod over everyone. Edited to add, after reading your last response, contact your SM and insist that the meeting be delayed until the COR is back and can attend. If this is important enough for all the the who-ha they are going thru, it is important enough that the COR be present. If they refuse to postpone the meeting, can you contact the head of the Charter Organization to attend? It seems to me that the CO needs to see exactly how it's unit is being operated, and if they will not wait for the COR, then the IH (Institutional Head) of the CO is the next one responsible for the Troop.(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

That depends. First of all, if you are using an Activity Badge Counselor of some kind, the first thing you want to do is to go over the requirements for the AB with them so you are both on the same page concerning what the boys need to do. I most cases, the badge will be done during den meetings, with the den leader, and any asst den leaders, in the room, and the counselor running the meeting. In that case you know who was at the meeting, and what was covered. Either the den leader or the counselor can sign the boys books. If the badge is done at an outside location, again, the den leaders will be there and know who is doing what. Either the den leader or the counselor can sign the boys books. If it is something being done at home, with the parent approved by the den leader, then the parent should sign the boys books. If it is something done at home on the boys own, then the boy should bring in the work for the den leader to approve, and the den leader should sign off in the boys book. If it is something being done by the Scout thru school, parks dept, etc, his teacher, coach, etc, can sign off the boys book. The den leader talks to the Scout about what he has done. If it is done thru a District/Council activity (Webelos day, Summer Camp, etc), in most cases the den leader will be there, or knows a Scout is attending the program. Whoever is in charge at the event will usually send something home with the Scout stating what he has completed. Some people use the worksheets found at various different places on the web, some people use only the Handbook. Some use a combo of what ever works for them. Whatever you use, make sure the requirements get updated (signed/initialed & dated) in both the boys handbooks, and the den records. That way both the boy and the den leader knows what has been done, when, and what still needs to be done. All this, and more, will be covered in your Webelos Den Leader Specific Training. As you have been admonished before, wait to start planning your Webelos year until AFTER your training.

Wow, it is unfortunate when adults can not play nice. This "adviser" sounds like he has no business being involved with this meeting as he has no formal position in the Troop. Are there any other Troops in your area you would consider transferring to? Edited because I can't seem to spell this evening!(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

If the boys participated in an activity IN THE DEN that counted toward an achievement or elective, then yes, by all means they should get credit for completing that achievement/elective activity. If the DEN DID NOT do a specific activity then how on earth can a den leader possibly say/know that the activity has been done if a parent has not signed off that it was done at home? Are you saying that just because it was not done in the den that you should automatically declare it completed? SOMEONE in your den (den leader/asst den leader/parent/etc) should be keeping track of ALL of the Scouts, and know which Scout has completed what. That comes with the territory, and is why dens, especially large ones, need multiple leaders, and helpers. BTW - Earning the Whittling Chip is NOT just a "filler" activity. It is one of the required activities to earn the Bear Achievement - "Shavings and Chips". That Achievement is one of the optional requirements for completing the "Self" section of the Bear Rank. If all of those 19-20 boys have already completed the "Self" section WITHOUT using "Shavings and Chips", then earning the Whittling Chip can be used as a Bear Elective. Why is that wrong? It really sounds to me like you, and the other asst den leaders, need to get together with your den leader to all get on the same page, and to plan out the rest of the year. It sounds like you are all going in different directions, and all doing your own thing. Just wondering - in one of your earlier posts back in 11/09, you stated your Pack had 2 Bear dens. What happened to make your CM and CC decide to combine the two dens into one big mega den? What did the parents have to say about it?

Once again Scoutfish, wasn't this the EXACT same issue discussed in the thread you spun off of? OK, that started with Tigers and you are now advocating it for your Bears. Still the same thread. Still the same opinions. Why start up a new one?

So you are suggesting that ONLY the boys who have their Bear rank finished should be allowed to work on Whittling Chip? Why? It is an option in the Bear program. All of the boys (not just the ones that have their rank) are Bears. The 19-20 Scouts in your Bear den who have not earned their Bear Rank Award yet have until the end of the school year, or even a bit longer, to finish it up. Why stop working with them now simply because the leader's sons have all finished their rank? Look at what the majority of the Scouts still need. Work den meetings around those requirements. The 4 boys who are finished can either count these activities as electives, or, if it is something they have already done, they can help the other 20 boys out. Communication with the parents is KEY in a den. I suggest a Parent Meeting. Give the parents plenty of advance notice, but make it VERY CLEAR that it is IMPORTANT one parent per Bear attend. This meeting can be either before, after, or during, the regular den meeting. If during the regular meeting, the assistant den leaders can take the boys in one area, while the den leader has the adults in another area. Everyone should get a printout of exactly what is going to be covered in the coming den meetings, and what they will still need to finish on their own. The fact that they should be working at home with their sons should be explained clearly. Explain clearly the fact that the den leaders do NOT know what has been done at home unless the parents sign it off in the Handbook. Also give them a schedule (once a month before den needs are due to Pack Advancement person) of when their Handbooks should be brought to the den meeting and handed into the den advancement person/den secretary/DL/ADL/whoever. Send updates home OFTEN. If there are still some boys at the end of the school year who have not finished their rank, that is sad, but the way it goes. At least you will be able to say you gave them a great Bear program all the way through. BTW - Yes, it is the BOYS best, but they have to at least TRY, and it is up to their PARENTS, for work done at home, if their best has been reached or not. Saying that doing nothing at all IS their best, so give them the award, because they did nothing, is not right.

Ahhh, some are easier to "convert" than others. But it is possible, so hang in there! You just have to make them really feel a part of the program. Unfortunately, there will always be those few who just don't get it, and some who are just downright nuts (sorry to say!). Having the leaders move up with their dens is pretty much the traditional way to do it. I am glad to hear that you will be their Wolf leader next year. Have fun at training and BALOO!

Fanciful - Just a suggestion, at your next Tiger meeting have each parent sit, stand, kneel, whatever, right next to their Tiger. Explain to them they are a TEAM and will be working together in everything. Do not let any of them off the hook. Do not let any of them sit in a corner. Treat them like large Tigers. They do the games, songs, crafts, what have you, right along with their Tiger. Have an opening ceremony for each den meeting (flag, Promise, Law, etc). Assign a different Team to lead it each time. Make sure they have the materials they need to do this. Have a closing ceremony for the end of each den meeting. I always like using the Living Circle. You can incorporate everyone in it, including any siblings who happen to be there. We say the Motto as we do the Circle. You need to get these parents invested in the program, and build the feeling of everyone being a part of the group. It sounds like your Pack as a whole could use some help. Have you taken any training yet? Go to Roundtable, and drag some of the Pack leaders with you. Good Luck!

Snow White, he is officially a Webelos. Having den meetings is not a requirement to his being a Webelos. It is not the Scout's fault if their are no den meetings. If he is a registered member of a Webelos den, and that den does nothing all summer, then he is being as active as he can be. Bottom line, the summer months count for time as a Webelos, no matter how "active" the entire den is.

Why is it that the boys do not have their Handbooks yet? Is there a problem with cost? Can the Pack, or the Charter Organization help out? If this is a problem in all of the Pack's dens, then you might consider having a discussion at your next Pack Leader's Meeting on including Handbooks in your Pack's budget for next year. Are your adult Tiger Partners attending every Tiger meeting and outing with their Tiger? Were the Tiger Teams aware they were working on the Wildlife belt loop? Were they aware that the belt loop was to be finished at that den meeting? Are you using Shared Leadership at all? For the Tiger Teams who are not getting things done at home, have them run a meeting for one of the requirements they are missing. Since most of the boys do not have the Handbook (still boggles my mind), it is hard to expect them to know what to do at home. Give them specific "homework". Let them know that for the following meeting they are to do a chore at home together, and then share what they did with the rest of the den. Do a den newsletter with all of the info on it and hand it to the Adult Partner each week. Perhaps you can copy pages from the Tiger Handbook for those who do not have it. For Bobcat, the Tigers do NOT have to MEMORIZE ANYTHING. They simply have to SAY, and in some cases explain, and DO. Most of the requirements can be accomplished in 1 or 2 den meetings. With repetition throughout the year, and in coming years, it eventually becomes second nature to the Scouts. Again include the Adult Partners in this. Do a relay race of Partner vs Tiger, sticking words to the Promise and Law up on a board in the correct order. How are/did the parents complete the YP section if they do not have the Handbook?

For the Webelos Badge the time requirement starts when he becomes a Webelos at the end of 3rd grade (June 1st). His 3 months as a Webelos would be up at the beginning of September. The AOL time requirement that would apply would be - Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since becoming 10 years old. If he turns 10 sometime in November, his 6 months as a Webelos would be up sometime in May. My question would be - Who is signing off on his Webelos Activity Badges over the Summer? Parents can no longer arbitrarily sign off on requirements for Webelos. The Webelos den leader (or someone assigned by the DL) is the one responsible. If you are the Webelos den leader, are you planning on having 2 separate Webelos programs? One for your son, and one for the rest of the den? How will that work?

Mat, never, ever, buy a Tiger a small size shirt. Those things are not cheap, and you do not want to buy a new one every year. The larger shirt you bought your son when he was 6 years old still fits him at 8, and if you are very lucky, it will fit him until he crosses over into Boy Scouts in 5th grade! At that point you buy him a larger tan shirt that he will be growing into FAST. If you are REAL lucky, he might make it until 8th grade before a new shirt is needed. So he looks a bit baggy right now. Count your lucky stars!

Liz, you stated - >>"He also does not have a specific visitation schedule in place but does still have the right to visit his children, because that's the way the law works."

A failed background check does not mean that a unit can automatically prevent a parent from attending activities with their child. This man has a record, he is not stupid. He KNOWS that he would not pass a background check. He is NOT attempting to be a leader, just go on a campout with his son. If your Troop is going to make rules, they should be across the board, not just for this man. In this case, since he has a police record, is non-custodial, and has been out of his son's life for about 10 years, the first question I would ask is - What does the judge say? Has he been granted visitation? Has his contact with his son been officially limited in any way? If he has no legal limitations on his being with his son then the Troop can't just say, sorry you can't come because your ex wife doesn't like you. What I would do is set him down and have a parent/leader conference. Explain the program. Explain that he will NOT be tenting with his son. That he will be in a separate area with the adults. Explain boy-led. Tell him that the boys are pretty much on their own during the campout, with the adults off to the side just keeping an eye on the situation. CLEARLY, explain the BSA rule of no one-on-one. Require that he completes BSA Youth Protection Training. An in person, at the unit, with a DVD, version would be preferable so that all questions can be answered. However, the online version works also as long as he prints, and turns in, the completion certificate at the end of the training. These things should be done with ALL new parents in the Troop. I would also recommend that your Troop starts (if they do not already do so) running the "A Time To Tell" Youth Protection video once a year. If this man does all of the above, and still wants to go camping with the Troop, then I would recommend an adult leader keeping a close eye on him. Explain the BSA "Buddy System" and assign him a buddy for the weekend. Again, this is a good idea for ALL non-leader parents. Good Luck. I hope I am wrong, but it kind of sounds like the mom does not want the dad around the boy and wants to use the Troop to accomplish that instead of taking it to court.

This is a special, one time only, award. It has it's own rules and requirementss. The rules for regular BSA awards do not apply to it. You don't have to earn the ribbons. Anyone can purchase a patch from their local Scout shop and wear it as a temporary patch. Ribbons are earned by completing 3 requirements for each ribbon. Once a ribbon is earned it is earned. You can not earn a ribbon more than once. There is only 1 set of requirements for Cub Scouts, 1 for Boy Scouts, 1 for Venturers, 1 for Adult Leaders, and 1 for Alumni. Tigers have the same requirements as Webelos so there should be no problem when they change Cub levels. For a Webelos moving to Boy Scouts, BSA addresses that in the FAQ on the award. It states - "Can a Cub Scout carry over completed requirements to a Boy Scout troop? Yes. Before the Cub transitions from their den to their troop, their completed requirements must be entered. Go here to enter the completed requirements, and indicate that no ribbons were completed. You may print a record of this by clicking on the Print an order form link. Then, it is the responsibility of the Cubs parent or guardian to notify the troops Scoutmaster that he is coming in with completed requirements which do count toward a Year of Celebration ribbon." So basically, if a Scout completes 2 of the 3 requirements for a ribbon as a Cub Scout, using the Cub Scout requirements, then crosses to Boy Scouts, the remaining 1 requirement is then completed using the Boy Scout requirements. Edited to add that BSA describes the award, and it's requirements fairly well on it's 100 year site. You can read all about it here - http://ww2.scouting.org/100years/100years/AYearOfCelebration.aspx (This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

Hey Mike, A BIG THANK YOU! for spending a day helping fellow Scouters bring a better Scouting experience to the Cub Scouts, and their families, in your area! Do you know yet which part(s) you will be doing?

Not sure what Wood Badge has to do with BALOO, or Pack camping, but hey, whatever works for you. I know a number of Pack families who, if they saw a "womanless beauty pageant" at one of our Pack campouts, would pull their kids from the Pack, and possibly from Scouting altogether. But, after all, who needs them, so why worry. It seems we disagree, and you are set on doing things your way no matter what.

The Pack management programs all have a free trial period of about 1 month. That way you can poke around in them and see just what they do without forking over any $$. My Pack uses Pack Manage, an online program. One thing any of these programs will do, besides filling out the advancement form for you, is to enable you to print out a list of who earned what awards for the month. This list usually includes the Scouts name, den, and award. You can export the info to an Excel spreadsheet, and sort it any way you want to. For award presentation I sort it by den, then Scout. I can easily get each Scout's awards together, and keep the den together as well. For your Scout Shop's purposes, sort the list just by the Scout's name. That will give you an alphabetical list of every Scout and each of his awards for the month. Give them this, along with the Advancement Report and it should make them happy. If they balk at the list, then there is a bigger problem here that should be addressed by your COR at the District/Council Committee meetings!

Once again - Cub Scouts do NOT earn MERIT BADGES. Terminology is VERY important if you want to communicate clearly to people. If you want to go camping and just do nothing, play offensive games, and do activities that are in poor taste at best, go camping with your buddies or your family. Do NOT do this on Scouting time. Parents are paying good money for their sons to participate in the SCOUTING PROGRAM, and to be exposed to POSITIVE VALUES, not to learn how to belch the loudest. The following was all taught to you in your BALOO training - The BSA National guidelines for Cub Scout Pack camping are that the emphasis should NOT be on advancement for advancement's sake. It should be on FUN, with advancement occurring NATURALLY as part of the activities and program. Cub Scout advancement is not supposed to be boring, and outdoors is one of the LEAST boring places it happens. ALL of the activities of a Pack camping trip should relate DIRECTLY to one, or more, of the purposes of Cub Scouting, and to Cub Scouting's 12 Core Values. The purposes of Cub Scouting are - Spiritual growth Good citizenship Sportsmanship and fitness Family understanding Respectful relationships Personal achievement Friendly service Fun and adventure Preparing for Boy Scouts Cub Scouting's 12 Core Values are - Citizenship Compassion Cooperation Courage Faith Health and fitness Honesty Perseverance Positive attitude Respect Responsibility Appendix E of your BALOO packet includes 3 pages of ideas on how to incorporate Core Values in outdoor activities. BSA expects every Scouting activity, including a Cub Scout Pack camping trip, to embody positive values and the aims of Scouting. This includes not allowing jokes, stunts, etc, that are in poor taste. Appendix C in your BALOO handouts addresses this very subject. It includes guidelines for Scouting appropriate activities. The last one is - "Model the values of BSA and set a high standard of appropriateness in ALL Scouting activities." "IF IN DOUBT, LEAVE IT OUT." Contrary to what you suggest, this is VERY possible to do. I very much doubt that families >>"might be offended by kids laughing "