ScoutNut

One of the requirements for the Boy Scout rank of Tenderfoot is to "Repeat from memory and explain in your own words the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan". I could care less weather or not he could do this as a Cub Scout. What he did, or did not do as a Cub Scout, and why he can, or can't do something now, has absolutely no meaning any more. The requirements for the BOY SCOUT rank of Tenderfoot must be done, as written, by a BOY SCOUT before he can earn his rank of Tenderfoot. THAT, and ONLY that, is what is important at this point.

Shame on the District Commissioner, he/she should know better. While both the Pack and Troop share a CO (chartering organization), that does NOT mean the Troop owns the Pack, or that the Troop is entitled to any special favors from the Pack. Make sure your Den Chief's SM knows that he is a DC for your Pack, and what kind of a job he is doing. If he has not been to training have him take the online DC Fast Start, and the Den Chief training offered by your council (a requirement for the Den Chief Service Award). Are there other dens in your Pack who would benefit from having a Den Chief? If so, ask your annoying, and incorrect SM, if any of his Scouts are willing to get trained, and take on the positions. Learning the differences between Troops is something the Webelos and their families should be doing. Your Webelos dens should be visiting a number of different Troops. A Boy Scout Troop, like a Cub Pack, is NOT a one size fits all thing. If you want these Scouts to stay in Scouting, have a good experience, and maybe one day become Eagles, then it is very important for each Webelos to find the Troop that fits him and his family.

Not knowing how your council/district had the camporee set up, what kind of activities were there for all Cub Scouts (including Webelos), or what their requirements were for Cub Scout parent participation, all I can say is If your council allowed Webelos dens to camp with a Troop then it is OK. However it seems to me this should be a den thing, with the Webelos den leader coordinating it with the SM of the Troop. Sorry, but from what you posted, both your Pack and Troop are a mess. How many Cubs are in the Pack? It sounds like the entire Pack meets together every week? How were you able to be den leader for Tiger, Wolf, and Bears all at the same time/place? If for whatever reason, you want to stay in the Pack and Troop, then I would do the following - As CM, I would contact my COR (Chartered Organization Rep), and the head of the Chartering Organization (church), and get together for a bit of a meeting. Including your District Commissioner and your DE might not be a bad idea either. Find out what their ACTUAL rules are for your Pack. Let them know your issues with the whole combined mess you have now (do NOT make any accusations of embezzlement that you can not back up with hard, on paper, facts). Find out if it would be possible to change your meeting day/time/place, and what it would take to get a separate bank account, and separate committee members including CC. A Pack is NOT a one man show. You MUST get parents to help as den leaders, and Committee Members. I don't know how you have been able to recharter each year if you and your husband are the only registered leaders. There must be a lot of "on paper only" filled positions. You, your husband, and any other adults who are registered with the Troop need to get fully trained AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Youth Protection training is a MUST. Before you take the Pack on another campout, someone needs to take BALOO training. The Cub Scout program is changing for next year, and your leaders will need to take that training when it comes out in May or June. If your meeting with your CO and COR does nothing to straighten out this mess, then I say take your boys and run, do not walk, to a Pack and Troop that are in decent shape and are following the BSA program.

If I was the principal, I would ask the CM if I could make a special presentation at their next Pack meeting. I would have a nice certificate made up and present the boys with the certificate and a special patch. Some that might work are - Cub Scouts Spring into Action - http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=SEMBLEMS&C4=&LV=3&item=610305&prodid=610305^8^01RTL& Cub Scout Promise Scroll - http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=SEMBLEMS&C4=&LV=3&item=22021&prodid=22021^8^01RTL& I Did My Best - http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=UNIFORMS&C3=SEMBLEMS&C4=&LV=3&item=80297&prodid=80297^8^01RTL& Or something from a private patch supplier - Service From The Heart - http://www.thepatchplace.com/?page=stock&action=patch&id=632&sess_id=327265bd57b2dd2d8de8a9421540cf4e (This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

From the BSA National web site - http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/awards/adults/sanda.aspx At the bottom of the page, under Feedback, there is an email address given to contact the Academic and Sports group at BSA National.

DC, in the way that jhankins is using it means Direct Contact leaders. Actually the BSA National roll out of mandatory training is - 2010 - Pilot Councils - All top unit leaders 2011 - Pilot Councils - All direct contact leaders 2011 - All Other Councils - All top unit leaders 2012 - All Other Councils - All direct contact leaders Per BSA, direct-contact leaders are anyone who comes into direct contact with youth members, and includes assistants to the top leaders and all den leaders. NYLT is National Youth Leadership Training. JLT has been gone for a number of years now (at least 5 I believe). From the BSA National Web site - "The youth leadership training continuum is divided into three courses: The first course is Troop Leadership Training (TLT), which is designed to be run frequently in a troop setting. The Scoutmaster and senior patrol leader will conduct this three-hour training whenever there are new Scouts or there has been a shift in leadership positions within the patrol or the troop. The second course is the council-level, weeklong National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT) and is often held at a council camp. This course is an in-depth training covering a wide variety of leadership ideas and skills. It simulates a month in the life of a troop and uses fun and hands-on learning sessions to teach the concepts in the toolbox of leadership skills. The Scouts hone their understanding of service-based leadership as they undertake a patrol quest for the meaning of leadership. The National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience (NAYLE) is an exciting new program that helps young men enhance their leadership skills in the Philmont backcountry. Scouts will expand upon the team building and ethical decision making skills learned in NYLT. NAYLE uses elements of Philmont Ranger training as well as advanced search-and-rescue skills to teach leadership, teamwork, and the lessons of selfless service. NAYLE offers Scouts an unforgettable backcountry wilderness experience where they live leadership and teamwork, using the core elements of NYLT to make their leadership skills intuitive." TLT is what should be required for all Troop youth leaders. It would be wonderful if all Troop youth leaders could also take NYLT, however, if a Troop REQUIRES it then the Troop should pay for it. In my council that would definitely break the bank of most Troops as it costs $240 for the course. I don't even want to guess what a NAYLE course at Philmont would cost, but I expect that would be the next mandatory step for youth in jhankins area! As for WB - Should Committee Members take WB? Sure, if they are completely trained for their position, have some BSA experience under their belt, and, most important, if that is something they really want to do.

I repeat - no where on this thread did anyone state their unit, or any unit they knew of, just up and decided one day, that they wanted a "shop" for new CO. I fail to see where this translates to a "practice of CO shopping"! BTW - I would be happy to email this thread to the CO of our Pack and Troop. Why would you think they would have a problem with anything I have posted?

David stated - "But Catholic schools do not have the volunteers for their basketball teams threatening to shop for another school and take the team name, mascot, colors, uniforms, "history", trophies, and equipment with them. Even if, in the worst case, if the team ceases to exist, the school retains these things. It is not just the team's history, it's the school's history." This is not "chicken or egg", this is apples and oranges. A Scouting unit is NOT a sports team. In the Catholic schools that my children attended sports teams were considered school extracurricular activities. Scouting was not considered a school activity of any kind. Where, in any of the posting on this thread, did anyone state they "THREATENED" their Charter Orgs? These postings have ALL been about Charter Organizations who have TOLD THEIR BSA UNITS they did NOT WANT TO BE CO's ANY MORE, and would NOT be seeking a re-charter with BSA. None of the units discussed here just woke up one morning and decided to take their stuff and go "shopping" for someone new. In NONE of the cases discussed here was this the UNITS idea! I really do not understand what your problem is. BTW - as for a Catholic basketball team ceasing to exist - we had a local parish close it's school. They had a BIG sports program. The families on the basketball, and softball, teams joined the town park district leagues as a group. They had new team names, but they kept their teams together, and kept playing.

While the unit is owned by the CO, and the CO, not the council, is responsible for dealing with any financial, or equipment, issues that arise, the CO can not just pocket the unit's money. The Co has promised, as part of it's responsibilities on being approved as a CO, that the money and equipment will be used for SCOUTING. From the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, 2007 printing - "All money raised by or received for the benefit of a unit or local council and all property acquired by a unit or local council shall be deemed to be received or acquired solely for the benefit of Scouting as interpreted and promoted by the Boy Scouts of America." and "Unit Obligations - In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the local council, if there is one, or if there is no local council, dispose of the same in accordance with the direction of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America. In the case of a chartered organization, any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organization or the chartered local council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America." Eagle92, using the money in the unit accounts for the boys, and selling the equipment to your Troop was a good way to use these things for the Scouting program, but I am surprised, given the rules of the BSA above, that your DE allowed the old CO to simply pocket the left over money.

Contact your council insurance person to find out what the accurate information is. Contact your Council Training Chair with the correct info and let him/her know what the trainers have been saying. If you don't believe/like what you have been told by your council, then I would simply let it go. If your council is not troubled, why are you? Just keep filing the Tour Permits so your unit will be covered for any circumstances, and let the rest go. There is not a whole lot you can do.

Neither you, or your husband are part of the District Key 3. You don't even have an official position on the Committee other than someone in the Training Committee, but not the Chair. No offense meant, but why on earth would the DE want to discuss the problems within the Committee with you and your husband? Since the District Chairman has resigned, and you don't feel it is your place to talk to the Council President (who is basically the next level up for volunteers), I would talk to the District Commissioner. The District Commissioner is part of the District Key 3 (along with the DE and the District Chairman). BTW, you might be part of the Training Committee, but simply having no District Training Chair does not mean that you will be in charge of the District Training Committee. The Council Training Chair is over all of the District Training Committees, and would be the one you would report to, and who should be filling in at District Committee meetings until a District Training Chair is found.

Fine, let me know how it works for you when you give the local Elks club your charter, and all of the members of the unit decide they do not want that particular organization for their CO. Edited to add that you also need to remember that you get your charter from the local BSA council. If the local council does not approve of granting a charter to the organization YOU pick out, what then?(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

That is what happens when trainers do not follow a syllabus and spread Scouting rumor. Remember, trainers are human, and subject to error also. As long as you plan on getting a tour permit for every Pack activity, then what is the problem? Simply tell your leaders that the CO, and the Pack, REQUIRE that a tour permit be filled out for everything - period. No debate is necessary, and it does not matter what the council/district's stance is.

>>"In my experience all the original CO has done is sign paperwork stating that the unit number and all unit equipment and accounts can be transferred to the new CO."

Local Tour Permits are one of the things that National has given local councils discretion on. The basic G2SS standard is less than 500 miles from home base (unit/den meeting place). However,Councils can adapt that to fit their own circumstances. Some councils require a Local Tour Permit for EVERY trip outside of the meeting place. Some councils require one for any trip outside of the town your meeting place is in. Some councils require one for any trip outside of your district boundaries. Some councils require one for any trip outside your council boundaries. Some councils require one for all council/district events,including summer camps. Some councils do not. As you can see, there is a LOT of variation. Your best bet is to contact the person in your council offices whose job it is to approve Local Tour Permits, and ask them. Or, just fill one out for every trip. With online Tour Permits, this is fairly painless. Edited to comment on your "high and dry" comment. NO, even if a den/unit failed to fill out a Local Tour Permit, they are NOT left "high and dry". As long as it is a Scouting activity, tour permit or not, BSA insurance would still be in effect. This is another, long proliferated, Urban Scouting Legend. (This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

Do you have a definite position yet, or are you still simply doing "something" on the District Training Committee? Since you are asking questions about Cub Scout training, have you been assigned the Cub Scout Training Chair position? You state "Some guidence is out of a book, but alot is from my trainers having had personal experience". Actually while experience is great, and can help when answering questions from those taking the courses, ALL training should be done DIRECTLY from "the book". That "book" is the current BSA National Training Syllabus for each specific course. These should be followed so that everyone, across the country, gets the same training information. This cuts down on the "Scouting Urban Legends" that are spread as fact. This is also why you really do not need to get into the basics of how to make the Cub Scout Values "fun" for Pack meetings, what specific kinds of trips to take the boys on, how to keep den costs down, and how to sell the parents on the new program. That is something that the Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner staff will be helping units with. I am sure National will be coming out with a Roundtable guide that covers those things. Have you been put on Roundtable Committee? Since you have no District Training Chair as yet, and do not, as yet, know what you are responsible for in your District, I would contact your Council Training Chair and find out if he/she has received a new Cub Scout Specific training syllabus from National yet. From what I understand, this training (Cub Scout Specific) is going online, hopefully, by the end of May, and councils will be getting training materials then also. A note - the actual new delivery program is supposed to be a bit different from the Fast Tracks Pilot program. The pilot program was supposed to be very structured because they were trying to evaluate exactly how it preformed. The actual program is supposed to have a bit more flexibility. Is the training you are referring to next Saturday the District Committee Training? Hopefully you will get some solid info on the new Cub program, but I rather doubt it. I bet it will be mostly an introduction/overview of what's coming.

If you are really interested in why they did not stay in Scouts, get their contact info from your Pack, and call each one. There could be many reasons why they left, finding out what their reasons were could help the program of both the Pack and the Troop. A question I have about the 4th graders - Were all 6-8 of them 10.5 years old by their May award date? This means that they would all have to have turned 10 before December.

>>"The question was, "Who should be finding the new CO?" My answer is...the old CO."

Then what EXACTLY are you suggesting. In all of the examples in this thread the current CO either did not want to, or could not, continue as a CO. If you do not feel it is right for a unit to "shop" for a new one, then what would you suggest is the right thing for them to do?

And the answer is to simply let the unit fold, and the boys either quit Scouts or look for some other unit to join? I do not think so. I see no problem with a unit looking for a new CO if their old one decides it does not want to be a charter partner anymore. We had a local church close, that was a BSA CO for over 50 years. Instead of simply letting all of their boys quit, the Troop's leadership, with help from the DE, went looking for a new CO to move to. They found a church that was only 1 block away from their old one that was delighted to have them. A church got a Scout unit, and a Troop got to stay together. Sounds like a win-win to me!

I don't see that you need formal instructions. Use your imagination, or better yet, let the boys use theirs. A rocket can be as simple as drawing a picture of one on a sheet of paper, or as complicated as a circle of cardboard for the nose, cardboard fins, and paper around the middle decorated as a NASA rocket. Give the boys paper, cardboard, markers, scissors, and glue and let them go. If you want you can pre-cut some circles and fin shapes. Or, you can have 1, or 2, templates for them to trace.

Oh good grief! And apparently some have a problem with "A Scout is Courteous"!

And you have NEVER heard of a COR who would handicap a unit for personal reasons? You keep stating the reason has to be a good one, and that it must be justified. That is certainly the optimal way it works, but it is not the only way. There are some tin god control freaks out there who don't really give a fig how their actions affects the boys, or the unit. Is it right - no. Does it happen - yes. A Charter Organization, and that means the COR and/or IH, because it owns the unit, can release anyone from their unit membership for ANY reason - good, or bad.

Have you, or any of the other den leaders, taken any training at all? I see some serious safety issues with this whole thing. May I suggest Youth Protection training, Cub Scout Leader Specific, and reading thru the Guide to Safe Scouting and the Cub Scout Leader Book. Meanwhile, POSITIVE reinforcement, not "ratcheting up the punishment" is the way to go. Have any of the leaders talked to his mother about his behavior? She needs to be brought into this to HELP, not as a punishment. He is a 3rd grade boy, "I don't care" is tattooed on his forehead. Why is this a cause for punishment? What was done when the Scouts did not do their assigned chores? What was done when he tried to drive a motor vehicle? What was done when the Scouts had rock fights, and stick fights? What were all of the other parents doing when their sons were doing these things? It sounds like these boys all need to have a refresher course on the Cub Scout Promise, Law of the Pack, and Cub Scout Values. Have them put together their own Den Code of Conduct. Consider a Good Conduct Marble Jar. Be fair and consistent. The Cub Scout Leader Book has a very good chapter on managing boys, and den discipline.

They can remove any one they want for any reason they want. The reason does not have to be a good one, it could be purely that the CO does not like a parent or a youth.