ScoutNut

As click mentioned, your answer, across the board, is that outdoor training is NOT MANDATORY for either Webelos den, or Boy Scout Troop camping per BSA National requirements. HOWEVER - Some councils have added their own requirements to National's basics. Some councils require BALOO and/or OLSWL to take Webelos camping. Perhaps your council is one of those that require additional training, and that is why you feel the information is conflicting. IOLS is part of the basic Scoutmaster/Asst Scoutmaster training, and is required in order to be considered trained in those positions. The BSA Guide to Safe Scouting requires that there be a minimum of 1 registered adult leader over 21 on all trips and outings. It does not require that the registered adult leader be trained for their position. Why would you NOT want to be as trained as possible? Especially for a brand new Pack and Troop. Cub Scouts camp differently from Boy Scouts. Outdoor training helps insure a good outdoor program that follows BSA guidelines. As for "homemade" training instead of council training, I do not recommend it. Unless your "homemade" version of IOLS has been approved by your council Training Chair it will NOT count toward the basic training requirements.

We have never had an official, written, Pack rule on uniforms. Uniforms are one, and only one, of the methods of Scouting. That said, we have always encouraged our Scouts and leaders to wear their uniform to all Pack activities. I have always encouraged my Scouts to wear their uniform to den meetings. I have always wore mine to be an example to the Scouts. Most Scouts wear at least their Scout shirt and necker. CPAMom - You stated that the Cubs in your Pack wear their uniforms to Pack meetings and outings. If that is so, then they DO have uniforms. You can not force your Pack to follow your suggestions. You can not force the Scouts to wear their uniforms. The most you can do is to ask your Webelos Scouts to wear their uniforms to your den meetings, and to set the example by being in as complete a uniform as possible yourself.

The cost for attending Jamboree from our council (in the Chicago area) was $2,200. I did not attend so I do not know what the cost covered.

Actually, the Adult Application online at the National Forms site, #524-501A, is new, and has been updated with the new Youth Protection requirement. It is stated on both the front, and back, covers that YPT must be completed before turning in the application, or working with youth. Toss those old applications from 2001. Always use current BSA forms, especially applications.

AOL is earned by a Cub Scout. Tenderfoot is earned by a Boy Scout. NO they are NOT the same. They are in fact, VERY different. Nor are they interchangeable. The Boy Scout Joining Requirements for the Scout badge are the closest to the AOL. Some Troops will give the Scout badge to new Webelos joining the Troop. Personally I feel that the Joining Requirements should be gone over again as a Boy Scout to reinforce them. Also the YP pamphlet in the Boy Scout Handbook must be completed.

Per the Scouting Magazine today - http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2010/08/bugling-reinstated-as-separate-merit-badge.html Have your guys start practicing "Taps," because Bugling is here to stay. In early June, we reported that the Bugling merit badge was to be discontinued and its requirements merged into Music merit badge. That's no longer the case. Responding to concerns from hundreds of Scouters, the BSA's Youth Development team has decided to reinstate Bugling as a separate merit badge. Oddly enough, this means that Bugling will never have officially been part of Music merit badge, because the changes were never reflected in a Boy Scout Requirements book. Bugling and Music will continue to share a merit badge pamphlet. Requirements and information for both of the badges will be contained within that single booklet.

Never had a problem with canola, but I prefer olive oil.

I was also interested in why the campouts were being canceled. The usual reason in the units I am affiliated with is lack of drivers, an/or lack of adults altogether. Without the 2-deep adults there can be no outing. Actually, the number of Troop campouts doesn't seem that bad. You will have had 6 camping trips in 8 months. That is only 2 months without a camping trip. Not to shabby at all. Did the Troop do any other activity those 2 months? The comment that there are boys (how many?) that have not earned Tenderfoot in 2 years is very troubling. However, if their recent camping record is about the same as it has been for the last 2 years, that is a total of about 21 camping trips to date. With 3 of those trips being a week of Scout Summer Camp. Most Council Boy Scout Summer Camps have some kind of T-2-1 program for new Scouts. Throw in all of the other opportunities to be had at the last 3 Summer Camps, and my question is - Where the heck have these boys been for the last 2 years? What have they been doing? Even if they do nothing but work on merit badges and Eagle projects at den meetings, there are the den campouts and Summer Camps. The should have earned at LEAST Tenderfoot by now, and be most of their way through the requirements for 2nd, and 1st Class as well. Just about the only way NOT to, is to not be showing up for most of the Troop's activities. If that is the case, then not earning Tenderfoot is THEIR CHOICE. Some other observations/questions - You said most of the "older" boys are only "projects away from Eagle". What age is "older"? Unless these are all 17 year old Life Scouts, pushing to earn Eagle before they turn 18, Eagle does NOT signify the end of Scouting. There have been many 13 year old Eagle Scouts who have stayed active, and happily Scouting with their Troop for another 5 years before "aging out" at 18. How old are the 2 boys who just reached Life Scout? You said that the boys who joined 2 years ago have not reached Tenderfoot yet. What about the boys who joined 1 year ago? How about your son, and the boys who joined this year? Are all of these non-Tenderfoot Scouts in the same Patrol? Do they have a Patrol Leader(s)? Do they have Patrol meetings? Your best bet is to do the following - Go online to MyScouting - E-Learning, on the BSA National web site, and take the following trainings - Youth Protection, This is Scouting, Weather Hazards, and Fast Start-Boy Scouting. This, along with purchasing and reading the Scoutmasters Handbook, will give you at least some idea of what you are doing until you can sign up for Boy Scout Position Specific and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills, in September. Talk to the Troop Advancement Chair, and get a printout of what requirements these boys actually HAVE finished. I would not be at all surprised if most of them are simply just missing their SM Conference (or a few requirements) to have completed Tenderfoot and 2nd Class. If you are going to help them, you need to know EXACTLY what they need. Talk to the Scoutmaster and see if he can appoint a Troop Guide. Also find out if the SM can do some Troop Leadership Training to help the Troops Youth Leaders to understand just what it is they should be doing. With that information, sit down with the Patrol Leader(s), the Assistant Patrol Leader(s), and the Troop Guide, and go over with them what THEIR Scouts need, and how THEY want to go about making sure they get it. There is no reason at all, why these Scouts can not plan their own advancement, while still earning merit badges. Just remember - It is THEIR plan, NOT YOURS! Edited to add - NO BACKYARD CAMPING!! They are not Cub Scouts. If the SCOUTS (not you) decide that they want to squeeze in a 4th camping trip in the next 3 months for their Patrol- fine. Have the SCOUTS in the Patrol, led by their Patrol Leader, decide where they want to go, and what they want to do on the trip. Then, talk to the Scoutmaster, and the CC, about the logistics, and how to best help them accomplish it. I would recommend taking along an experienced ASM as the second adult on any Patrol campout. The ASM will help keep you from helicoptering, and doing for the boys what they can/should be doing for themselves.(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

Immediate recognition has always been a part of Cub Scouting. That is what the Progress Toward Ranks beads have always been for. However, to get a bead, or pin, in the Wolf, Bear, or Webelos, level you have to complete a number of different things. These things are usually spread out over a number of meetings. In order to give out beads, and pins to these Scouts, you would have to keep track of who is at which meeting and what was done at the meetings. Which is not really very hard, and something you have to do anyway. But, when you have to do it at the den meeting, while still running the meeting, it can get to be a bit of a pain, and rather messy. For Tigers, where they receive a bead for every 1 thing they do, it is much easier to hand beads out on the spot. Purchasing other awards, and participation patches, for everyone, and then only having a few actually earn them, is a waste of time, and especially, money. While we were not one of the Pilot Packs, our approach would work the same way for the "new delivery method" as well. We rarely gave out any awards in den meetings. The boys were told (and congratulated) at the den meetings when they had completed a requirement for something. They would then immediately mark it off in their handbooks as done. Den leaders also kept track of who was at what meeting and what was completed. Immediately prior to turning in the month's den award form to the Pack Advancement person, den leaders collected the handbooks from their Scouts and then went over them at home to make sure that everything was recorded (both in the book, and in the den leaders records). The den award form was then filled out and included all beads, participation patches, special awards, etc, earned by the boys during the month. This way both the boys, and the leaders, could easily see when awards were being completed. We then awarded everything to the Scouts that they had completed/earned during the month at the monthly Pack meeting. The Pack only purchased what was needed, with no overstock. Scouts who missed the Pack meeting were verbally recognized for their work at the Pack meeting, and given their awards during their next den meeting.

I would NOT give the Pack's property to your DE. It is not the DE's job to be a storage facility or delivery person for a Pack. Also, if none of your Pack leaders has the room in their garages for the stuff, what makes you think your council offices will have room to store it? I have been in mine, (also in a suburb of Chicago) and I KNOW they do not. Especially not in any DE's "office". Our DE's have a cubicle, like any other office worker, and rather small ones at that. The Charter Organization (NOT your council) OWNS the Pack. The COR is the CO's link to the Pack it owns. The CC is the head of the Pack's business end of things. Telephone the President of the CO, the COR, or the CC. Or all of them if you must. If none of them want the Pack's property returned to them, then you can give it to your council to be given to a needy Pack, to another youth program, or whatever. At that point I would send an email to the President of the CO, the COR, and the CC (you might even include the CM), that because CO, COR and CC, confirmed that the property was no longer needed/wanted by the Pack that you have disposed of it by --- .

So, being as "smarmy" as the new CM will accomplish what exactly? No matter what has happened, the stuff in your garage is not yours. It belongs to the Pack, and the Pack's Charter Organization. The Pack (ALL of the families) knows this, and more importantly, YOU know this. It seems to me that this Pack's Charter Org is one of those self-made ones, like "Friends of Pack 123". And as such there is no Charter Organization building to drop off the stuff at. The school they meet at is NOT the Charter Organization, and might not have any place to store the stuff, or even want it there. You stated that you know the head (President) of the Charter Organization well, so I assume you know where he lives. Contact him immediately by phone (not letter), and let him know that you will be dropping off all of the stuff at his home this weekend. If you have to leave a message, give him a specific date and time, that you will be dropping the stuff off, and let him know to phone you if there is a problem. Then drop off the Pack's stuff with the owner of the Pack. If for whatever reason no one is there when you go to drop it off, knock on a neighbor's door and leave it with them. Then call the President of the CO, and let him know to contact his neighbor. At this point you can do an e-mail blast to the COR, CC, and the Committee members, letting them know of the disposition of the Pack's property. Doing any less, is just not right, and will set a VERY BAD example for your son.

It is nice to see that you are at least trying to facilitate a "Girl Lead" Troop. At the Senior level that is a GREAT thing!

Funny, in all of the years I have been involved with BSA, I have never seen a performance "range" for any requirements. I have never seen a "minimum", or "maximum", for requirements. From my training, and experience, what I understand to be the BSA rule is - "No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements." If the requirement sates - "Swim continuously for 150 yards using the following strokes in good form and in a strong manner: front crawl or trudgen for 25 yards, back crawl for 25 yards, sidestroke for 25 yards, breaststroke for 25 yards, and elementary backstroke for 50 yards." Then THAT is what should be done. No more. No Less. Perhaps I have been confused, and looking at the wrong BSA paperwork? Now, notice that BSA does NOT have a rule on what to do when folks don't follow BSA rules. The MBC's at Summer Camp are pretty much on their own. Yes, shocking as it may seem, there ARE bad MB Counselors. TELL THE CAMP PROGRAM DIRECTOR - and YES, I AM YELLING! These people are NOT all knowing. If you don't tell them their people are doing a bad job, how on earth are they supposed to know? If you have waited until the "blue card" has been signed to question things - yes it is a done deal. They have earned the MB. BUT, as folks here have pointed out, that is NOT the end of a boy's Scouting life! Just because he has earned the Swimming MB, that does not automatically exempt him from ever again having to prove he is a capable swimmer! He STILL has to take the BSA Swimmer test each Summer at camp. He STILL has to prove he is capable of SAFELY managing a canoe. He STILL has to PROVE he can meet the swimming requirements for whatever water activity it is he wants to do. A Merit Badge is just that - a merit badge. It is NOT a Get Out Of Swimming Free card.

Oh for crying out loud! As has been posted - NOT EVERY PAST PRESIDENT HAS APPEARED AT JAMBO IN PERSON!! He taped a message - GREAT! Get over it. The are a LOT more pressing issues for a sitting President to deal with than a BSA Jamboree, 100 years or 1 year. If you REALLY don't like it, then get off of your bum and get the names to put yourself on the ballot for the next Presidential election! See how REAL LIFE in the Oval Office is! Sheesh! Why am I constantly surprised/disgusted by people? You think I would have learned by now!

How will telling 2 adults that, per BSA rules, only current members of the BSA can wear the BSA uniform, "run off" boys? I think that wearing their Eagle medals on a suit jacket is entirely appropriate.

The fact that the ASPL does not want the job of SPL is a BIG red flag to me also. Have you considered, that while this boy might indeed need help with a medical condition, his problems with the Troop, and the position of SPL, might be well founded? Have you considered that might be why the ASPL does not want anything to do with the job? Also, why on earth did you have the ASPL do a "Troop Mobilization" to search out the SPL? It seemed to me that he knew he was out of control, and went off by himself to cool down. Were his parents concerned that he might do himself harm? I am not clear on the threatening of "physical violence". Did he verbally yell at the adults to stay away from him or he would kick their butts, or something in that vein? Or, did he pick up a stick, rock, knife, ax, whatever, and physically threaten them? Big difference. I would have a SM conference with the Scout, and his parents. Talk about his behavior, why it was wrong, what might have caused it, and how to avoid that kind of response in the future. I would also discuss with him the position of SPL. Find out why he accepted the position if he did not feel able to meet the responsibilities. I think that given his meltdown, you must remove him from the SPL position. He can run for it again, if he wants, when he has matured a bit, and learned some control. However, considering the ASPL's response, you have some possible problems that you need to address in the Troop. Are the adults "breathing down the necks" of the youth leaders? Are they being supported and guided, or pushed, talked down to, and scolded? Do the youth leaders know what is expected of them in their POR's? Have you done any Troop Leadership Training? We do not know the entire picture here, but from my perspective, there seem to be other issues besides just this one Scout.

Interesting, and sad. This is what happens when your CO is uninvolved, and does not back it's COR. Good luck in your new Pack.

>>"Twice now my husband & I have been just visiting other troops with no district affiliation"

A better use of your time would be to train those Troop Committees who run long re-test BOR's on how a BOR SHOULD be run. A BOR, ANY BOR, should not terrify a Scout so that he needs numerous "practice" sessions before he can screw up the courage to face a "real" BOR. An Eagle candidate has already been thru 5 BOR's, an EBOR should hold no big surprises for him. Some of the committee members from his Troop will most likely be on his EBOR, so there will be familiar faces who know him, and whom he knows. If an Eagle candidate freezes on a question(s) at his EBOR, so what? Do you fail him out of hand for nervousness? If so, then your District BOR members need some serious retraining also.

USA Today reported that there were "dozens" at the parade who collapsed from the heat. Did any of you who were there have any problems? Hopefully your Scouts and Scouters, stayed hydrated and well!

List your 6 (or 5 if not employed) references on your Eagle application. Pick 3 of those references (per your council-not a parent or member of your Troop), and send them a copy of your council's Eagle Award Candidate Recommendation form. According to your council's Eagle Guidelines, they are not looking for specific recommendations on religion, education, leadership, etc. What they want are "frank opinions of fellow citizens regarding his character and ability". Basically they want 3 people who know you personally, who are willing to tell how you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. As to how people here, on this board, would answer the question - "how does reverent apply to you" - that is really irrelevant. The question is how do YOU feel it applies to YOU. Everyone will have a different answer to that question. It sounds like you have time to think about what YOUR answer will be to that kind of question, should it come up at your EBOR. If you have any questions on your council's Eagle procedures, I suggest you talk to your SM, or your Eagle Adviser. Good Luck and Congratulations!

I love my slide collection! I have one to reflect the theme of every Pack meeting. The boys get a kick out of seeing them. They also get a kick out of making their own slides! BSA specifically allows variety in necker slides. There is enough uniformity in Scouting, and in life. Lets hear it for this bit of individualism!

If you have a "full" committee, then you should have an Activities Chair. The Activities Chair should be the one taking point on Pack activities/outings, including the ones held during the Summer months. I would highly recommend that your Committee Chair recruit an Activity Chair. Since your Pack is large, an Activity Committee, with a separate person in charge of each event (ship overnighter, Fishing Derby, Pack Family Camp (BALOO trained), etc) would be ideal! Putting together Pack outings should not fall on the Cubmaster.

It is on the Adult Training page under Supplemental Training - http://www.scouting.org/Training/Adult/Supplemental/BoardofReviewTraining.aspx

Oh Lordy! Then we would have pre-Venturing Exploring, pre-Venturing Venture Crews, Venture Patrols, Explorer Posts, Venturing Crews and Exploring Crews? I'm confused just typing it!