ScoutNut

Awards should be presented as soon as possible after having been earned (all requirements met). The AOL is not the same as crossover to Boy Scouts. They are two separate, and very different events. If your son has, as of now, completed all of the requirements for AOL, he should be presented the AOL award patch, with all due ceremony, at the very next Pack meeting (September?). He should NOT be made to wait for any arbitrary date or event. After earning AOL, the decision of when to transfer to a Boy Scout Troop is up to him, and you. Since he is past 10 years old, and has earned his AOL, he does not have to wait until he is 11 years old to join a Troop. He can crossover to a BS Troop at any time between when he earned his AOL, and finishing 5th grade. He can crossover to a BS Troop at the September Pack meeting after he has received his AOL. He can crossover to a Troop in October, when he turns 11. He can crossover to a Troop in time to celebrate the holidays in December. He can wait until February, and crossover to the Troop with his buddies from his den. He might even wait, and encourage other Webelos Scouts to finish up their AOL before February and cross to the Troop with him. Whenever you decide to do it, an appropriate crossover ceremony should be held where he is welcomed to the Troop by his new Scoutmaster. You and your husband do NOT have to move into the Troop with him. If he decides to wait for a month, or two, or five, after earning his AOL, to transfer to a Troop, he can continue to work on Webelos Activity Badges, and other Cub Awards, with his den. He might decide to try to earn all 20 Webelos Activity Badges, and thus the Webelos Heavy Shoulder Award. (This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

Without prior approval from the den leader giving you sign off ability for this (or any other) Activity Badge, the best way to do this would have been to keep track of each requirement in a journal, along with pictures of him doing the various things. I suggest talking to the den leader. The den leader might simply accept your approval of the badge requirements, he might require your son to sit down with him and go over what he did for each requirement, or he might require that your son repeat some/all of the requirements. You need to talk to him to find out. BTW - just because you are located near the coast does not mean that there are no swimming pools available to you. There are usually swimming facilities at high schools, colleges, country clubs, fitness centers, and your local YMCA. Pool time can often be rented, especially if you have a facility member in your Pack.

A woggle is any device used to fasten the necker closed. Often called a necker slide in the USA. A turks head knot can be a woggle, and is used often as such. However woggles can be just about anything. Check out Woggle World for some ideas - http://cubclub.tripod.com/

Did you, the SM, or the SPL, coach him in his POR? Was he ever told by ANY of you that he was not fulfilling his POR? He is 12 years old, and has a rather out of sight, out of mind, way of thinking. This is NOT an uncommon thing for that age. Why do you insist that it means he is not getting a good Scouting program, that his parents are pushing him, that he does not have his own personality, and that he being denied a childhood? Those conclusions seem a bit over the top to me. He seems to be enjoying himself, and learning as he is having fun. What is so gosh darn sad about that?

A comment on Den Chiefs - While a SM might be more than happy to provide them, you have to have Scouts who actually want to do the job. Having a SM assign that POR to a Scout who does not want to do it will be worse for the den than having no Den Chief at all. Talk to parents in the Pack who have older boys in a Troop. If they have a connection to the Pack it is usually easier to get them involved as a Den Chief.

You know the adults who have been in your Pack. Pick some from every level who you think will do a good job, and ask them face to face. Splitting dens is not that hard. If you must, put all names in a hat and pull them out per den. Sometimes the split will happen naturally along new/old lines, area they live in, school, etc. Remember that the Youth Protection training certificate must accompany all new adult registrations.

I have made "cowboy" coffee for years. I usually boil the grounds for a while first, then put the egg in. When it gets to the right color, I dump in a cup of cold water. The egg collects the grounds, and the water settles them. The very few bean/egg bits that manage to make their way into a cup, are just part of a complete breakfast! If you want to avoid the egg, and don't like bean bits, you can always make a cheesecloth drawstring bag, put your ground beans in, and boil away. I also have a big old (very old) peculator pot that I use sometimes. Never had any problem with the stem, or base, and it has not exactly been handled gently.

It does not matter what YOU define as "truly participating". You had 9 boys registered in your Bear den at the beginning of the Bear year. The point of the BSA Den Leader Award is, what kind of Bear den leader were you to the ENTIRE den. I don't know if your council actually checks out the facts behind the Den Leader Awards. However, if they do, they have access to how many boys are registered in your Pack as Bear level, how many Bear rank awards were purchased, and to how many boys were registered as Webelos. If the two who informed you they were dropping out were taken off of the charter, then I think you can count your den number as 7 for most things. For Quality Unit purposes the entire registered number of 9 should be used if that was the number as of 01/01/10. That is compared to the registered number as of 12/31/10.

Sorry Moose, but to me, it sounds like you are the one who has a resentment problem. You are the only one who keeps bringing that up. You seem to be bound and determined that Jim (or anyone) will be resented simply because they are Eagle Scouts and have a "great background in Scouting". What a bunch of horse hockey pucks! Stop trying to psychoanalyze us. If Jim gets shut down by his Troop when he aggressively pushes his changes on them, it will NOT be because of his Scouting background, or because he is an Eagle Scout. It will because he is AGRESSIVELY pushing his changes on them. I seem to remember an old saying about flys and honey.

They have never been in Scouting before, and take two months to decide weather or not to register with your Troop. Yet, they get to UT and immediately find a Troop to register with, and are able to sign up for Summer Camp on REAL short notice. To me it does not sound like they are brand new to Scouts. It sounds like they were registered members of the UT Troop before they even decided to join your Troop. Dad sounds like a helicopter (all conversations with him, none with boys). You will need to keep an eye on him. Nothing you can do about any of the advancement. MB cards have been signed, BOR's have been held. Both boys are officially First Class Scouts. That is where you need to start from. I also suggest you contact the UT SM. I assume they will be attending that Troop whenever they are in UT, and you and that SM need to get on the same page.

Moose, no attitude, or resentment here on my part. Just trying to give Jim some ideas of why, as he states he is, having trouble with his son's Troop leaders. Moose, and Jim, you might not like to admit it, but there are always two sides to every story, or complaint. What we see on forums like this one is usually only a very one-sided picture. It helps everyone, including the person who posts a problem, to try to see more than just that one, very emotionally charged, side. And BTW Moose, yes, I have worked as a unit volunteer. However, as a Council volunteer, trainer, and Commissioner, for many years, I have seen many, many, different types of units. Some bad, some good, some great. Even the great ones were not perfect. I have also had to learn to deal with a good many different kinds of folks. I don't resent new blood or new ideas. There is always a need for both.

The Scientific Method is fully explained on the pages for the Science belt loop in the BSA Cub Scout Academics and Sports Guide book. This is why is is a good thing to have a copy of the actual book on hand. The National Scout Shop (Scoutstuff) has a copy of the 2007 Guide that you can download from their customer service section - http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/images/pdfs/34299_07_CS_SA_Guide.pdf It does not have the new loops/pins of course, but is a great resource on its own.

Jim, some things to think about. You seem to be judging the other adults in the Troop based on weather or not they were Scouts as a youth. From what you have posted, it sounds like except for the last 10 months, most of your Scouting experience is as a youth in the program. You comment that none of the leaders are fully trained. Are you? From your questions (and questions are never a bad thing) it does not seem so. Going thru the Scout program as a youth, and being an Eagle Scout, does NOT automatically make you trained as an adult leader. Neither does it automatically make you a BETTER adult leader. Going thru the program as a youth is COMPLETELY different from running the program FOR the youth as an adult. You also seem to have the idea that because you are an Eagle that this Troops leadership should listen to you, and do whatever you tell them without question. Because you are an Eagle and they are not. Personally, I find that attitude more than a bit arrogant, and condescending, and I bet they do to. You said that the others leaders told you to back off because you told the boy that you "understood how he felt and understood why he wanted to punch the scout." You also stated that you felt that "it was exactly what the boy needed to hear at the time, especially since I did understand." This tells me that you stepped into this with the mindset of a youth in the same circumstances, not as an adult leader trying to break up a bad situation. It could also have been seen by this boy as you condoning his actions, and encouraging him to continue doing them. That is NOT a good thing. You also state you feel the SM's punishment was inappropriate. While we all know rank cannot be taken away, membership CAN. This was an issue of physical violence. It was also, apparently, NOT the first one. You stated that - "I was the one to interdict in both instances." Both, means that there were at least 2 incidents of physical violence, that YOU are aware of, with this boy. If that Scout has been in the Troop longer than 10 months, there could very well be multiple more such incidents that you know nothing about. Was the SM wrong? Yes. Were you wrong? Yes. Does this Troop need improving? Most definitely. However, that will not happen by grabbing them by the throat, shaking them, and insisting they make the changes that you tell them to. Back off a bit, and scale back on the I'm a better Scouter than you attitude. Take the adult training for your position. Take the SM out for a cuppa and discuss the problem with rank. Look at the Guide to Safe Scouting for some ideas on what the Troop can do about discipline for this boy. Talk to the SM about them.

I have 2 male dogs. One has all of his "equipment", and is completely as nature intended him. The other has been "fixed" (although I never realized he was broken ). Every so often, when his male urges hit him, our "unfixed" dog tries his best to make babies with our other one. So, my question is, is our "unfixed" dog immoral, deviant, and bizarre? Or is he simply doing as nature intended him to do, by trying to make babies with someone he is attracted to? Also, is my "fixed" dog also deviant and bizarre because he is not as nature intended him to be? And one last question, what would you husbands do, and how would you feel, if you were told that you could live with your wife, but you could never, ever, be intimate with her on any level. No hand holding, no touching a cheek, no kissing, no sex. Nothing. Could you stop yourself? Keep in mind that homosexuality is NOT a choice. These folks did not wake up one morning and decide, Hey, I'm bored, I think I will do something REALLY different today. They ARE as NATURE made them.

Oh come on! Given BSA's track record of late with releases is anyone REALLY surprised? I am not looking for this anytime before the end of August to mid September, and would not be at all surprised if it ended up a Halloween "treat"! Personally, I feel that all of the folks at BSA National need to take a course in how to communicate clearly, and effectively. What is the point of their monthly "training updates" if they are never actually "updating" anything.

If the Scout has already passed the BOR and has his rank patch, how exactly do they plan on taking away the rank? Ripping the patch off of his chest? Calling council and telling them to delete the rank from ScoutNet? Not possible. Now, they might put arbitrary obstacles in this Scouts way toward any future advancement, but there is nothing that can be done about that in the present. As for the church using their BSA Troop as their youth outreach group, that is entirely permissible by the BSA. On the BSA Youth Application it states under Program Policies - "Chartered organizations agree to use the Scouting program in accordance with their own policies as well as those of the BSA. The program is flexible, but major departures from BSA methods and policies are not permitted." The LDS church is a perfect example of a faith based charter organization using the BSA program as their own youth program.

>>" It makes the process of record keeping much more efficent and manageable and its not any more imposition on a scout than making photo copies."

From the BSA National Web site - "A pack can earn the National Summertime Pack Award by doing three pack activities when school is out for the summer one activity each in June, July, and August." "Pack members (meaning boys, not adults) who take part in all three events are eligible for the National Summertime Pack Award pin, to wear on the right pocket flap of their uniform." "Dens that have at least half of their members at the three summer pack events can earn a den ribbon." From the BSA National Summertime Pack Award application - "Cub Scout Pack No. _________________ of Chartered Organization_______________________________________________ has qualified for this award by conducting a pack activity in the summer months of _______________." "National Summertime Award pin for boys who attend all three summertime pack activities" "Den participation ribbon for dens with 50 percent or more of their boys at three summertime activities" "Number of dens qualifying (50 percent of the dens Cub Scouts participating) (June)__________ (July)__________ (August)__________" It seems pretty straightforward to me. The only place that 50 percent is mentioned is in conjunction with the dens, not the Pack. Edited to add - Yes, your Pack earned the Summertime Award Streamer, and the Scouts who attended all 3 events earned their Summertime Pin.(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

This year starts the "New Cub Scout Delivery Method". This new method is for all rank requirements to be done during den meetings. The former delivery method was for most of the rank advancement work to be done at home, as you did. The former method allowed for advancement at the individual Scouts own pace, and included the concept that a Scout be recognized for his achievements as soon as possible after completing them. This would include NOT holding onto awards for months at a time. The current method is not as individualized. The Scouts all work together in the den toward their rank award, with the end point being that all requirements, for all Scouts, are completed by February. That said, awards are still NOT TO BE HELD BACK. Holding on to awards for months at a time rather defeats the purpose of getting the bling to the boys as soon as possible. I would stop working on the rank requirements immediately. Talk to the den leader to see how she/he intends to run the den this year. If the DL is following the BSA Wolf den meeting plans, and doing all requirements in the den meetings, then your son will be repeating the requirements he has already done. Repetition is not a bad thing. It helps solidify the lesson/skill. Perhaps he can offer to act as Denner for those meetings that feature a requirement he has already completed, and help the other Scouts in the den.

For those of you who are hot to buy only American cars - where do you think the steel that is in those cars comes from? We import about one forth of our steel. About 20% of the steel companies left in the US are foreign owned, so even if you are not buying directly imported steel, like the Toyota built in Indiana, you could very well be buying from a foreign company. That "end-to-end" Lansing made GM car can be built on a foreign made steel frame. As could the house you live in. When the steel industry in the US went belly up, hundreds of thousands of people lost their jobs, and hundreds of thousands more lost their retirement and health benefits. That does not count the hundreds of thousands of folks who lost their livelihood, and their homes because their community, that was based on the local steel industry, collapsed. It was horrible. However, it did not kill the US, as many predicted it would. Government bailouts did not help the US steel industry. Going bankrupt did. BTW - the advertising for that Lansing made GM car was by a company owned by a French ad conglomerate. Stop patting yourselves on the back for "buying American", because the odds are NOTHING you buy or use is 100% American. Personally, if the place I purchase something from is located in the US, giving jobs to people in the US, that works for me. If some consider that unpatriotic, they are living with blinders on.

As for your Committee, all of the Packs leaders - Committee Chair, Cubmaster, Committee Members, Den Leaders, Asst Den Leaders - all decide on the Summertime activities TOGETHER, at your annual Pack Planning meeting if possible. You should at least start getting ideas together then. Your Committee Chair should appoint an Activity Chair. That Chair can either appoint a chair for each event, or take them on themselves (depending on how many volunteers are available). Activities should be finalized far enough in advance so that there can be lots of Pack, and den, publicity about them. Give families enough time to figure the Pack events into their summer schedule. Also, give enough lead time for any activity that requires a registration by the Pack. I realize you said that you enjoyed planning, and running these events, and it was not a burden on you. However, remember that once you take on the job of CM (and Webelos DL?) full time, that it can easily end up being one. Even if you still feel you have the time, you are NOT a one man show. You are NOT the only one involved in running the Pack. You do not have a small, or even medium, sized, easy to handle Pack. You are the brand new, inexperienced, CM of a VERY LARGE Pack. Do your job. Let the Committee Chair and the Committee do their jobs. Work TOGETHER.

Scoutfish, why do you say that your Pack has not earned the Summertime Pack Award? All that is necessary to win the Summertime Award for the Pack is to conduct one Pack activity in June, July, and August. You have done that. You stated that you had 2 Scouts who earned the Summertime Pin for their level. Individual Cubs can not earn the Summertime Pin without their Pack first earning it. The only thing you were spot on with was the fact that none of your dens earned the Den Summertime Award. In order for a DEN to qualify for the streamer, they need to have had at least half of their Scouts attend each of the three Pack Summertime activities. None of your dens even came close. You might tell the dens what they missed at your next Pack Meeting when you present the Pack, and the Scouts their Summertime Awards!

It is not the "beads and beaver set" who want to see your leaders trained, it is BSA. When you signed your BSA adult volunteer application you agreed to comply with the rules and regulations of both BSA and your local council. I applaud what you are trying to do for the youth in your community, however you might consider studying the Boy Scout Law a bit more thoroughly so that you present a good example to your Scouts. All of the "beads and beaver" comments and trying to get around council rules, does not mesh well with the Scout Law, especially the courteous, kind, and obedient portions.

Girl Scout Troops are not owned by a CO. The Troops have not been around 50 years and accumulated a trailer's worth of Troop camping equipment. Most Troops do not make it the full 13 years from K-12th grade. Any equipment that a GS Troop has is personal equipment. Since not every girl (or leader) is an avid camper, backpacker, canoer, etc, most will not have any specialized equipment. We used to take our girls camping 3-4 times a year. Summer Camp was an individual thing, and not at all like Boy Scout Summer Camp. You could pick from a variety of theme camps (cheerleading, photography, theater, etc) with very few camping/outdoor type oriented ones.

The point of using only National approved training, with a National syllabus, is that the training content is consistent from one end of the country to the other. So, weather you take IOLS in Nome, Alaska, or Miami Florida, you should be receiving the same training. Also, even if you take your training in Nome, it is still recognized by your council in Miami. Unless your homemade course has been approved by your council, uses the National syllabus for IOLS, and has council approved trainers running it, there is no way it can be recognized by BSA as an actual IOLS course. As Moose stated, if you are unhappy with the training given by your district/council, FIRST - give them feedback. Let them know exactly where their training had problems. Every training course I have ever attended, or ran, has had a feedback form given to the participants to fill out at the end of the course. How will your district/council know there is a problem with a training if no one will tell them. NEXT - take the training in a different district or council. Because it is a NATIONAL course, you can take it from any district or council and still have it count and be recorded against your BSA membership number. I had an out-of-council Scouter tell me once that he signed up for our BALOO course because our council camp that we were holding it at was actually closer to his home than where his council was holding their course.