ScoutNut

It is not the "old" SM, and CC's call. The Scout is no longer in their Troop. They have absolutely no say in what POR's he holds in his new Troop, or how he fulfills those POR's. Weather or not your son is a Den Chief for this Pack is up to the Cubmaster, and his current Scoutmaster, and SPL. Just because a Pack and Troop are chartered by the same CO, does not mean that the Troop runs the Pack, or has "dibs" on it in any way, shape, or form. It sounds like the old Troop is worried that your son's Cub Scouts might join his new Troop when they are ready to cross over, instead of theirs. From the way they are acting, they have plenty of reason to worry. Some adults just can't play nice. It's a shame. Good for your son. Encourage him to ignore the adult issues, do his best, and have fun working with the Cubbies! I am sure he will be a great role model for them.

qwazse stated - "I encourage all of my venturers who are part of a troop to consider serving as ASM's when they turn 18. It's a little more financial hardship for them (troop dues tend to be more than crew dues)". Your Troop charges it's adult leaders dues? Wow, I never heard of that before. I can see charging everyone for camping costs. Everyone has to eat after all, and it is cheaper if the site cost is spread out over everyone. However, the adults do not receive awards, and most times they end up spending their own money on supplies, printing, and misc equipment and stuff for the boys in the Troop. Not to mention their time. I can also see asking for voluntary donations (heck council does FOS). But to charge adults dues on top of the BSA registration, and their personal time and money spent, just seems downright greedy to me.

The new den meeting plans can be found on the BSA National Web site here - http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts/Leaders/DenLeaderResources/DenandPackMeetingResourceGuide.aspx The assistant den leader can purchase the entire Den & Pack Meeting Resource Guide at your local Council's Scout Shop. Perhaps if she sits down with the den leader and shows him these plans they will be better able to work together.

You seem to be really put off by the fact that this den leader wants to get the rank requirements done "early". By "early", do you mean this den leader pushes to have all rank requirements finished by Blue and Gold in February? If that is the problem you have with this leader, then you need to read up on the new Cub Scout delivery program. BSA has changed how the Cub Scout program operates. Most rank requirements are now done in the den meetings, with only some "home assignments" given. BSA wants every Scout to have completed all of their rank award requirements by February. To this end, BSA has sets of den meeting blueprints for den leaders to follow. So, as far as BSA is concerned, pushing the boys to get their rank requirements done as soon as possible is the way they want the dens to be run. As for den meetings being boring, it sounds like the asst den leader needs to step up, and have a heart-to-heart talk with the den leader. They should be working together, and the ADL needs to get that point across clearly. Report cards, and surveys are not needed. Better communication between the den's leaders is what is needed.

A district trainer is NOT a "higher-up at the district level". He is a volunteer, and they can spread incorrect information with the best of them. The section titled "Family Camping" is simply a description of what would be considered family camping. It states that it would have Cub Scouting program elements, NOT that it can be done as a Cub Scout DEN. NOWHERE in that paragraph does it state that family camping can be done at the den level. However, in the section directly above it DOES state, in BOLD typeface, that overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear dens is NOT ALLOWED. Notice it does NOT specify overnight camping, except for Family Camping. It states overnight camping as a den. ALL overnight camping as a den. Council sponsored camping can be family camp style, or it can be resident camp style. But the ONLY time you can register as a DEN is if it is a WEBELOS den. All other times it is individual registration, or registration by the Pack. If you want to know what your council/district really allows, call your council offices and talk to the person who is in charge of approving tour permits.

If your Pack does not want to go with something like ScoutTrack, then they will not go along with any of the other unit management systems out there, like PackMaster (installed software), or ScoutManage (online like ScoutTrack). Until/unless your Pack decides to get off the stick and spring for a Pack management system, your only other option is spreadsheets. ScoutNet is not unit management. It is BSA's database, and not always accurate. Most councils now give access to it to their units thru online advancement entering and online re-chartering. If you want to compile a history, ask your den leaders for their past advancement/award info. BSA has a number of forms that you can use, and/or, have your den leaders use, and give you a copy of monthly - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/Appendix/511-804.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/Appendix/511-811.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33828.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/Appendix/33847.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/Appendix/33850.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34403.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34299_6_7.pdf You will have to keep hard copies of these if you want to have the info available if your Pack goes with a Pack management program in the future. The Unit Advancement Report is necessary to purchase restricted items, such as rank awards. The rest of these reports are fine if your Pack only awards the advancement awards and belt loops/pins. My Pack purchases small segment patches for all kinds of attendance recognitions (pack meetings, parade, camping, service project, etc), so these do not work well for us. I put together a Pack Meeting award report sheet that the den leaders can fill in, and send to me for whatever type of award they need purchased, and then I would consolidate in on my own spreadsheet for a shopping list. Once we got ScoutManage we no longer needed the den advancement reports. Everything was entered online by the den leaders. With ScoutManage we have the capability to create our own, Pack specific, awards, so those could be entered too. Then I can run a complete shopping list, and also a filled in Unit Advancement Report, to take to our local Scout Shop. It automatically archives all award information, so you have it if you need it for any reason.

Staffing a Cub Camp, of any kind, is simply put, a lot of work. But, if you enjoy pitching in, and working with Scouts, AND parents, it can also be a great experience. I always enjoy it when I have families from my Pack at a camp I am a staffer for. It is also fun to meet Scouters again that I have had in trainings. Just a note - leave your Cub Scout at home, or have him attend as a camper with his mother. You will be there to work. You will not be able to work, and be a camper with your son too.

Since you are going to have such a diverse group of Scouts, I would recommend doing a practice run with them all if possible. That way they will have an idea of what will happen, and what you expect from them.

We usually bring the US flag up the right aisle from the back door, and the Pack/Troop/State flag up the left aisle. They come together at the middle, in front of the audience (in front of the podium?). The Scouts hold the US flag in front, straight up. The other flag is behind the US flag, at an angle. The flag bearers hold these positions while the Pledge, and anything else, is recited. The US flag is then crossed over, and put in it's holder. Then the other flag is crossed and posted. Scouts meet in middle and are dismissed. When being retired, there is no need to cross over again as the US flag will already be on it's own right. The other flag is taken from it's holder first, and walked to the aisle to wait for the US flag. The US flag is taken from it's holder last and goes down the aisle on it's side. Taps is a fine piece to play while this is going on. Just a note - Both going up, and coming back, make sure the US flag starts off a step or two before the flag on the other side. During the Pledge, while the flag bearers and color guard are standing up in front, PLEASE, make sure that NONE of them salutes, or recites the pledge (or scuffs his foot around, chats with his buddy, checks out the audience, messes with the person in front of them, etc). They stand at attention, and/or hold the flags. That is IT.

Is this a Tiger den event, or a Pack event? If it is a Tiger den outing, why not? His son paid for a year's membership. Maybe if he works with his dad on this outing he will get enthused about Scouting again. If it is a bigger, more involved, Pack wide event, I would talk to the dad to make sure that he is clear on what it involves, and what will be required of him. If he is certain he still wants to do it, why not? Again his son is registered for a year, regardless if he attends or not. Maybe this activity will get him interested again. BTW - Has the den leader, or the CM, contacted this family to find out why they are dropping out? Perhaps something can be done to enable them to stay.

You still have your den leaders, your new Treasurer, and you. That can work as a starting committee. Get input from those people on who they would recommend. A general cattle call for help at a Pack, or parent meeting, does not generally work well.

I am with Beav on this one. I also agree that as a Tiger Adult Partner, it is HER job to be "joined at the hip" to her Tiger son. Also, as a parent, it is HER job to - parent. However, you stated that this mother was "almost in tears". This tells me that she is at, or near, the end of her rope, with nowhere that she knows to turn. It also sounds like she was hoping that Scouts would be the magic bullet that would help her, and her son. You also stated - "She has told me that we are the worst pack she has ever been with and she has NEVER seen a pack run like this before." There is more to this story than meets the eye. Why have they been in multiple Packs? Does she have other children? Has this boy been in other Packs as a Tiger? This is something that needs to be discussed CALMLY between the family, the den leader, the Cubmaster, and possibly the Committee Chair. This is NOT something that needs to be brought to a committee meeting - yet. Edited to say that I saw you had posted while I was typing. One thing I am unclear on - what exactly is your position in the Pack? You do not appear to be the Committee Chair, the Cubmaster, or the Tiger den leader. Why is it your concern to document issues/events, and deal with this family?(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

Two things - First, I agree that there is a problem if a SM lets a Scout (your son?) linger for 3 years without earning Tenderfoot. Someone should be helping/mentoring these boys (you did state there were several). If they have stayed active in their Troop for 3 years, with no advancement at all, without packing it in and quitting, or moving Troops, I would say that they are committed to Scouts, and the Troop. It would be nice if the Troop showed some commitment to them as well. However, the second thing - It has been 3 years. You are telling me that after 3 years of exercising and practicing that these boys still can not do 1 pull-up? Sorry, but, unless there is a handicap involved, it is pure hogwash! If my 300lb neighbor exercised even 1X per week, for three years, he would be able to do one pull-up by the end. There has been little to no practicing going on with these boys. These boys are now in 8th, or 9th grade. They should be well past the do it for me Webelos 3 stage. They should be at least somewhat self-motivated by now. If they really want to earn advancement, then THEY need to get off their bums and do something about it. THEY need to talk to their Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader, SM, or an Asst SM to see what kind of help they can get. THEY can talk to a coach at school to help them. THEY can sign up for a Park District exercise class. It sounds to me like they are very happy at just the Scout level, not earning any advancements. And that is just fine, if that is what they want. However, if they want to move forward, they need to make a commitment to practice, and exercise their arms, and upper body - regularly. This problem is with BOTH the SM and the boys.

You said that you know your den parents, but not the rest of the Pack families. What about the other den leaders? I am sure that they know the families in their dens too. Even the DL's who are brand new have had their son in the den, and had interaction with the other families. The Tiger DL sees his/her parents at every meeting, and by now should have at least some kind of impression of them. You state you have a Pack Committee in name only. You are wrong. You have a COR, a CC, a CM, a Treasurer, den leaders, and maybe assistant den leaders. Get them all together in the same room, at the same time, and hold a Pack Leaders Meeting. Work together. Get recommendations from everyone on who they feel would be a good fit for each job. Rank them according to how everyone feels from best fit to OK fit. Start with the best fit for each job and have the CM, and the leader who knows the person best, approach them and have a face-to-face talk. If that person declines, move on to the next in the list. Camping help - First of all you need to know who will be attending. Then do the same as above. Ask your other Pack leaders if they can recommend any of their parents who might have a trailer they can bring to help haul stuff. A parent who can help purchase food supplies. How about a parent with a Boy Scout who can help plan, and run program. Or a parent with an older Girl Scout who would like to get some leadership time in. Etc, etc. Then have the leader ask the parents personally.

The religious emblem programs are NOT BSA programs. The religious awards are created, and run, by the individual religious institutions, NOT BSA. Many religious institutions allow BSA to sell their religious award booklets. They do this to make it easier for their youth to access them. The religious awards themselves (the medals) are purchased from the individual religious organizations, or thru their authorized dealers. BSA allows these medals from other organizations to be worn on it's uniform. The BSA silver on purple square knot patch is the BSA recognition that the youth, or adult, has earned a religious emblem of their faith as a youth. The BSA purple on silver square knot patch is the BSA recognition for an adult who has received a religious service award from their religious institution. Bottom line - The medal is the religious institution's, and is usually awarded by them. The knot (and the devices for the knot that designate what level it was earned in) is BSA's, and is awarded by the BSA unit.

No tricks, or special devices. The BSA method of looking for the best person for the job, and then asking them - personally, face-to-face, and making sure they know that they will have any help from the other Pack leaders that they might need, has always worked for me.

McDonald's is a for-profit, public restaurant. BSA, the Protestant, and LDS churches, are private organizations. A BSA Charter Organization has to operate within certain parameters and abide by corporate policies. However, they are also allowed to "customize" the program to fit their specific organization, as long as it is within those parameters and policies. In your for-profit example, franchisee's are also allowed some flexibility to customize. A store on one corner might be selling a product for $ XX cheaper than the same type of franchise store, is selling the exact same product, 3 blocks away. Store #1 might carry different products than store #2 of the same corporate franchise. Depending on the franchise, some stores might not want to put the corporate logo on their storefront. Charter schools are also a similar concept. They are formed so that they can offer programs customized to fit a specific group (sometimes a very narrow one), or community, while still meeting the educational policies of the state. This is not a new, or radical idea.

>>"My council has a Hungarian troop where they will only accept members who speak Hungarian. All others need not apply. (They even where different uniforms and follow a different Scout program, yet they are allowed to be registered with the BSA)."

This whole thing was started some years back by a Scouter who was trying to get more parent participation. It was picked up by National as a way to meet their goal of increased parent involvement, and increased volunteer registration. If you fill in the dot on the registration form, then BSA can pull that from their database and tout how many active parents it has. I agree, the whole concept is a bit silly. Filling in a dot on a form might help BSA statistics, but it will not actually make you an active parent. It also does not help that, for the most part, folks have no idea what it is, or why it is mentioned on the youth application. Especially brand new to the program parents. Most will look at it and think that of course they are the parent of a Scout, why else would they be filling in a youth application. They will then either fill in the dot and never think about it again, or totally ignore it. Others will focus on the word "active" and avoid it like the plague. I agree that a Committee position of Parent Coordinator can be useful if it is filled by an experienced parent. I think including that position in BSA publications concerning the unit Committee (Cub Scout Leader Book, Troop Committee Guidebook, etc) would be a better way to define it, and bring it to folks attention.

It sounds like you are being asked to do, basically, a 90 minute infomercial for Roundtables. The first thing I would do is to get the basic info for all District Roundtables. Time/place of meetings, and calendars of what will be covered. For the year if possible, for the next few months at least. I would also attend at least 1 Roundtable in each District to get an idea of what they do, and how they do it. Find yourself an assistant for the course. Someone from another District's Roundtable staff would be great. You don't want to give your attendees unrealistic, or incorrect, expectations of what they will find at THEIR District Roundtable. You want to give them an idea of what they will ACTUALLY experience. For your actual course, I would have a handout with all of the Roundtable info for each District listed. I would treat it like a mini Roundtable. If all, or most, of the attendees will be Cub Scouters, do it from a Cub perspective, but mention the others as well, they will not be on the Cub side for ever. Have a sign-in sheet, and a gathering craft. Start out with a sample of a Roundtable opening ceremony. Find out how many have ever attended any Roundtables, and what their opinions were of them. I would suspect that anyone who signs up for a course in Roundtables has not attended any yet, but you never know, and their input could be valuable. Do a quick overview of what Roundtables are, who should attend, and why they are good things. Do a mini sampler of various activities that they might experience at Roundtable. Include levels other than Cub Scout if you have any in attendance. Consider taking examples from previous years Roundtables, along with some from this year with its focus on Values. End your class by having them fill out a form (and possibly running a discussion) telling you what they would be interested in seeing/doing at Roundtable. Have them give you feedback, and tell you what kinds of things would bring them into Roundtable, and keep them coming back. At the end of the day, consolidate all suggestions and send them off to the various Roundtable Commissioners.

Have the Parents talk to someone in their own, local, religious organization (pastor, priest, rabbi, etc). If the boys are all members of the same religious organization, and if that organization is your Charter Organization (CO), then you could talk to the head of your CO, or to the religious education coordinator, about helping the boys earn the religious emblem of their faith. Usually the boys will each work independently, with their parents as their mentor. When they have completed the booklet they usually must meet with a representative from their church/temple/etc. This person will go over it with the boy, approve his work, and sign the form at the back of the booklet. This signed form is then turned in to a location specific to the religious organization, and the emblems are then purchased.

A Pack is not a one person show. The CM should not be doing more than his/her own job. If you have a single den Pack of 5 Scouts, then the job could very well be as easy as simply "running to the scout shop" once very so often. However with a Pack of 30 Scouts, there are 5 den leaders to keep after, and depending on what your Pack pays for, and how it is done, anywhere from 30-100+ awards to sort thru, consolidate, list, purchase, and sort by boy, by den, into some imaginative container for each boy. Our Advancement person was also in charge of coming up with a monthly awards ceremony, or theme. Baggies and a handshake is SOOOOOO BOOOOORING! So, while you are doing all of that, and being den leader, when do you have time to put together a decent, fun, Pack Meeting program, especially if you are doing everything yourself?

We don't have a Pack website but ScoutManage can do double duty as both. It can do everything you want a website to do, and more. You can do Pack, and den calendars, and have email reminders of events sent out to (only) the folks involved. You can put special notices/reminders on the Pack's landing page. You can have a question/answer blog for your DL, CM, and/or CC. You can have links to needed websites. You can store photos. You can have permission slips, fliers, signup sheets, health forms, etc, available for downloading by the Pack families. You can do targeted emails to specific people/groups (leaders/dens/everyone/etc). You can keep track of payments for events, and attendance. You can add individualized, Pack only, awards and recognitions (This is one of the big reasons we went with ScoutManage). Rosters, and contact info lists. Historical info. And much more. All for $44.95 per year. If you can afford to pay for the first year yourself, I am sure it will be worth it to the Pack to pick up the cost after that.

Cub Scouts are not like Boy Scouts, historical info is not really all that important. While a Boy Scout needs to know the exact date he earned Tenderfoot, it does not matter to a Webelos when, or if, he earned the Tiger rank award. What matters in Cub Scouts is really the current year. If you want a general idea of what each Scout has earned, ask the den leaders. If they are new and have no old den records, have them ask their Scouts, and look at their Scout's uniforms. RecordTrax is intended to be a historical record for a den, not a Pack. I really like ScoutManage for a Pack management system. I brought it into the Pack, and feel it is well worth it's cost, although as noted, it takes a bit of a learning curve to get used to. Once you get the historical info you are looking for from your den leaders, it is easy enough to enter it as past info. It is also very easy to designate exactly what kind of access everyone (including parents) has to what info. I STRONGLY recommend recruiting a Pack Advancement person to handle coordinating award purchasing and distribution (which is made TONS easier using a program like ScoutManage!).

>>"www.scouting.org??? Never heard of it? What's that.. "