ScoutNut

If your Charter Organization does not want to stand up for, or behind, it's units then there is not much that unit volunteers can do. The most that a single volunteer can do in your situation is to put a big goose egg on the yearly FOS form, along with an explanation of why you are not contributing. This is why it is important for Charter Organization Representatives (CORs) to do their job of being a voting member of the District/Council Committee, and actually participate in the running of their Councils. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your viewpoint!), most are like yours, and do nothing.

>>"Just because another group spends more does not mean that their program is better"

CO = Charter Organization (the community organization that owns your unit) COR = Charter Organization Representative (usually a member of the CO, they "represent" the CO to their unit (Pack/Troop/Team/Crew/Ship), their District, and their Council) PLC = Patrol Leaders Council (youth leaders in the Boy Scout Troop) TC = Troop Committee (adult volunteers who support the program)

Popcorn is not a BSA National Fundraiser. BSA has no National Fundraiser. Councils do their own fundraising to cover their own budget, and pay their bills. Part of that is FOS. Part of that, in SOME (not all) councils, is a popcorn sale by the council membership. Councils decide for themselves what kind of fundraiser they want to do. If they are going to do a product sale type of fundraiser they have to get their membership involved in order to actually sell in any kind of volume. For that there needs to be some incentive for the membership. Councils decide the product they will sell, and the vendor they get that product from. They also decide how their profit scale is set up, and what is used for incentives. In most sales of this kind that I have been involved in, or heard about, the units get 30% of the profit, and the Council receives 70%. Out of that 70% the Council has to pay the vendors for the product and incentives. That is usually about 30%, which leaves the Council with 40% profit. Most Councils will also increase the units profit over 30% in some form or another. As I stated earlier, your COR needs to get involved. Other CORs need to get involved. The CE needs to be reminded that if their units can not do money earning activities, there is no way in heck that they will be able to cough up any FOS monies at all. Not to mention that on top of no FOS money, the units might fold, leaving Council with a drop in units, membership, and money. I am sure that BSA National will be thrilled about that. The CORs need to point out to the CE - clearly - how he is cutting off his nose to spite his face, and what the consequences of that idiocy might be, and they need to do it soon.

Your leaders should check on the MyScouting site on the BSA Web site to see what ScoutNet has recorded for their trainings. BSA added an easy way to check onsite. Also, instead of suffering in silence, get your COR (and the COR's of other units) to do his/her job. They are members of the District Committee. They should attend the meetings and make their voices heard there.

Ahhh, I see. So by "advancements" you mean mostly those big $2 participation patches. Gotcha! Yep, those can add up fast. Our Pack is quite active too, but I can say we have never overbooked our unit (except for popcorn booth sales one year only. Never did that again because it was a large pain in the backside!). We have also never done multiple Pack Camping trips on the same date (not really a Pack outing that way). Between Pack and den service projects, and outings, Pack/council/area events, those pesky booth sales, and regular den and Pack meetings, we stay pretty busy all year, and the boys and their families have fun. Yeah, I (and my son and other members of my family) have staffed many summers worth of Cub Day and Summer Camps. Even ran a few. Hard work, but fun to see the boys having fun, and the Cubs love to think they have an "in" because they know the staff! We use small segments that go around the council patch on the back of their "brag" vests as participation patches. A lot more cost efficient for us, as they are under $1 each. They look great on the vest too! One of the things I like about this forum is the chance to see how Scouting is done in other areas. It is interesting to see how units differ on things!

Wow, $400-$600 every month for advancement for 50 boys! That is $8-$12 per boy, per month. What the heck are you buying every month? For our 40 boys, if they all make rank the same month, rank awards, parent pins, and additional misc awards might come up to about $250. For end of the year it can get pricey, and go up to $400-$450. However that includes new neckers, handbooks, all last minute loops/pins/patches, and gifts for the Webelos. Our cheapest month might come in at around $160 or so. I would say we average about $2200/year, $6 per Scout per month, at the Scout Shop, and that includes just about everything from soup to nuts, not just advancements. It might make it up to about a $7 per Scout average if you add in their Pinewood Derby cars. $5000 per year for 50 Scouts for just advancements is an awful lot.

Well, personally, while they are fun at camp, at home I prefer to make my omelets in a fry pan. Less time, fuss, bother, and landfill. But, for a fun Pack snack demo, why not. Throw in some armpit fudge for dessert, and there you go! I should have bought shares in ZipLock!

My comment on the CO not using their BSA unit to make money for them was a general comment on why these rules were there, not at all directed toward you. I found the document online here - http://www.scribd.com/doc/8919606/Rules-and-Regulations-of-the-Boy-Scouts-of-America Your council Service Center are able to get the most recent version for you if you ask them.

I found a copy of the 2007 Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. What it states is - "All money raised by or received for the benefit of a unit or local council and all property acquired by a unit or local council shall deemed to be received or acquired solely for the benefit of Scouting as interpreted and promoted by the Boy Scouts of America." and "In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the local council, if there is one, or if there is no local council, dispose of the same in accordance with the direction of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America. In the case of a chartered organization, any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organization or the chartered local council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America" "Any property or funds acquired by the Executive Board upon the dissolution of a Scouting unit or local council shall be administered so as to make effective, as far as possible, the intentions and wishes of the donors." This all seems to state that while the CO does "own" the unit, anything earned, fundraised, or purchased in the name of Scouting, must be used for Scouting. In other words, a Scout unit is not a money making vehicle for the charter organization.

The Cub Pack charges no Pack dues at all - $0 - to either the youth, or the leaders. We average about 40+ boys in the Pack, and the entire budget is covered by Popcorn sales. The Pack pays for neckers, slides, handbooks, red "brag" vests, any/all awards/patches including bead totems, Webelos Colors, council patch for brag vest, participation segments for around the council patch, religious emblem knots and devices, parent ribbons and pins, belt loops and pins, etc. The Pack also pays for the Scouts cost for any Pack activity, decorating for Pack meetings, cookies/cocoa for our tree decorating activity with the Girl Scouts at our CO, part of the cost for each den to decorate their section of the Pack Haunted House, special presenters at Pack meetings, Pinewood Derby cars, Halloween gift bag for all youth (scout & sib), Christmas gift bag for all youth, the main dish at the Christmas Pot Luck dinner, entertainment at the B&G dinner, Pack Family Campout, Fishing Derby bait/gifts/drinks/snacks, the bus to attend minor league baseball game, and hockey game, Estes rocket kits to boys who make their non-mandatory popcorn goal, whipped cream "pies" to toss at leaders for the top 10 popcorn sellers, burgers/dogs at Pack Picnic, and more. The CO pays for the Scouts and Scouters recharter fees and Boys Life fees. They also pay for the Religious Emblem booklets, and medals. The Pack would offset any training costs by the leaders, but they are so minimal that most leaders do not ask for reimbursement. I refused to ask the Pack to pay for my cost for Wood Badge as I felt that was way to much money to ask the boys to pay for. Den dues are set by the individual dens, but generally run from $0-$20 per year. The Troop charges about $30 per year. They do an annual Pancake Breakfast that covers most of their budget. Popcorn profit goes into the individual Scout accounts. Troop pays for MB sash, neckers, slides, all awards/patches, gifts at Christmas, t-shirts/caps/sweat shirts, some activity costs, and more. Boys pay for food for each camping trip ($10-15). All of the boys costs (Troop fee, camping fee, etc) generally come out of their popcorn accounts, and not their pockets. The Troop provides tents, backpacks, cooking gear, etc. As with the Pack, the CO pays for the Scouts and Scouters recharter fees, Boys Life, Religious Emblem booklets, and medals. If either our Pack, or Troop, charged $180 per person (adult & youth) in order to be a member, we would have no Pack or Troop.

Wow, you feel that "14 years of family scouting is essentially down the drain" because you left this one Troop? So the 14 years your sons were in the Scouting program they learned nothing? It made no impact on them at all? The 14 years you helped other Scouts receive the Scouting program means nothing to you, or them? None of these Scouts (yours, or others) benefited from being in the Scouting program? Wow. I take it, since there has been so little benefit in being in Scouting for the past 14 years, that you are pulling all of your family's registrations (you, husband, and sons) from the BSA completely? Are you shutting down the Crew completely too? Again, Wow. By the way, BSA has no Religious Merit Badge.

Sounds fun, go for it. One year at Summer Camp, there was a Pack that used what looked like tan fishing vests for brag vests. Lots of pockets, easy to wash, and large enough to last until they cross to Boy Scouts.

Not complicated. Cubs, or Scouts, we sleep in the same tent. Son sleeps in his tent. If daughter is there staffing too then we will have mom, and daughter in one tent and dad and son in another.

Kids don't always tell the truth about home (or Scout) situations, and neither do parents. You can't just generalize and say that "if the parent has failed to sell their own child on the program what is their value system". Parents can not, or at least should not, have to force their children to participate in any program. Even those the parents really like, and find value in. It tends to make more problems in the long run. If the parent is a good trainer, or staff member, or Commissioner, or because of their volunteering a program is put on by Council that might otherwise not have been, how can you say they are in it for only themselves, and not the youth members? The volunteers they are training, the programs they are staffing, the units they are helping, is all helping the youth in Scouting get a better program in the long run. So what if their son is not participating the way that you would like. He is not your son. There might very well be issues at home that you, not being a member of the family, are not privy to. As long as a volunteer does a good job, their personal priorities are none of your concern.

I REALLY, REALLY, hope you asked permission to post his communication with you, including his personal phone numbers, on a public internet forum! (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

What '92 said. Summer is the best time to do activities that would not necessarily be available, or easy to do, in other seasons. Doing activities over the summer months keeps them in "Scouting" mode, and reminds them how much FUN they can have doing it. Some summer activities we have done - Fishing Derby Bike Hike Camping Kite Fly Picnic Raingutter Regatta Rocket Shoot Baseball Games Parade Water Games

Anything/anyone, "can be" a problem - A brand new volunteer who refuses to follow the program. An "old timer" volunteer whose kids aged out years ago, and refuses to accept changes to the program. A parent who is only interested in what their kid gets. A volunteer (with, or without, kids in the program) with a "god complex" who feels that the unit is theirs and they are the only ones who can do things right. A volunteer (with, or without, kids in the program) who spreads themselves so thin that none of the jobs they take on get done well. A parent whose Scout child is a spoiled, aggressive, bully, and brat. All the parents who refuse to volunteer in any way. A volunteer who puts down another volunteer (and his parenting skills) who is giving up their time with their own family, and spending their own money, to help train him so he can give the boys in his unit the best program possible. All of the above, and more, "can be" a "problem". The BSA recognizes that volunteers are impacted by the program as well as youth. They commissioned the "Volunteer Outcomes Study" to discover why people volunteer with the BSA, and what they get out of their volunteering. The study found that the primary reason people volunteered was not to earn awards for themselves, but to "share their skills and values with young people." That is all young people, not just their own children. The study also found - "Overall, the findings suggest that volunteering for the Boy Scouts of America has helped people become better citizens, better parents, better managers/supervisors, and better employees." You can read the study here - http://www.scouting.org/FILESTORE/marketing/pdf/02-658.pdf

>>"I guess we can just take the donations directly."

I agree - give your council a call ASAP. Talk to your DE. Your DE, if they do not fully understand the tax, liability, issues will know who in the council does. Your DE needs to have a meeting with your school PTA President to explain these issues, and to explain their role as a CO. Warning - From what I understand, the National PTA organization is actively discouraging it's members from chartering Scout units. With these issues being brought up there is the distinct possibility that your Pack will need to find a new CO. You should be prepared. Again, we here on this forum can not give you information specific to YOUR area. You really must contact your District Executive at your Council Service Center.

Ed asks - "What does sign language have to do with the OP's question?" The OP asked if watching a video of "hearing impared teens singing to up-to-date music" would complete the following requirement for the Cub Scout Disability Awareness Belt Loop - "2) Attend a disabilities event such as an Easter Seals event, Special Olympics, a performance with sign language interpretation, an activity with Guiding Eyes dogs, or a wheelchair race."

>>"I have also asked (at the request of the cubmaster) that the troop take the pack on a family campout in May, and that the boys would be running the campout for the younger boys."

If there was a sign language interpretation along with it, I think a video would be fine. You might also talk to your CM, and committee about hosting a disability presentation as a Pack meeting event. Kids love dogs, and Service Dogs are used for much more than just to help the visually impaired. There are Assistance Dog programs for many different kinds of disabilities such as Autism, Alzheimer's, hearing impaired, and more. Contact an organization in your area to see if they can do a presentation for your Pack, or den. You might also do an internet search for disabilities awareness programs. You can also contact a Merit Badge Counselor for the Boy Scout Disability Awareness Merit Badge. They should be able to put on a program for your den, or Pack. Call your Council Service Center to get Counselor contact info.(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

Gotta love the balloon stomp game! Especially with Tigers and their Partners! Which reminds me of a program tip for new den leaders - Always have some quick, easy, games on tap that you can pull out of your hat if needed. Balloons are great for that. Easy to carry (just shove a bag in your back pocket), and they do not need a lot of space to use. If you have more space available no/minimal equipment relay races (wheelbarrow, feather toss, octopus, crab, etc) are great too. For those of you coaching your new Tiger den leaders, remind them to include the Adult Partner in all games, and songs, as well.

Personally, I think inviting the new TDL over for a beverage, and going over the program elements with him, outside of any official meeting time, would be a better idea. You can give him some tips, go over how the Tiger den interacts with the Pack, give him a heads up on any things he should be getting his Tigers ready for, answer his questions, etc. As a new den leader I would be a bit put off if the CM took over my den meetings for the first 2-3 months. It would feel like there was a distinct lack of trust there, and make me question what, exactly, my role was. Remember, in the Tiger program, the den leaders (or even the den leader coach) do NOT do it all themselves. The Tiger den leader is more of a coordinator for the Tiger/Partner Teams. Even in the new Cub Delivery Method world, Tiger dens are supposed to use Shared Leadership. It is a very important program element, and is why an assistant den leader is not really needed in the Tiger program level. ALL of the parents act as assistants. It helps the den to bond, and the parents to discover what the program is all about. By the end of the Tiger year, the den leader should know his parents well enough to find one, or two, that he can work well with, and recruit them. Get together informally, before den meetings start for the year, for your "coaching" session. Let him know that you are available for any kind of assistance he might need during den meetings. During den meetings stick your head in once, or twice, to see how they are all getting on (since you are there you can be doing this with every den). Do not just jump in and take over.