ScoutNut

>>"You have thought of a better way to handle this "THAT WILL GET THIS DONE MY WAY" with a high degree of probability for success!"

I am a bit confused. Two days ago you had a tour plan put together, but had no idea if your council would approve it, or who to talk to at your council about your two-deep problems. Now, you say that you had in fact already talked to not only your council, but some other council, and National as well, and been approved by all three. A bit of a shift there. As to your "recourse" - you can not "schedule a committee meeting", nor can you call for any kind of "vote". You state that you are a volunteer with your Troop, but not a registered leader, so you have no standing on the Troop Committee. Your Charter Organization Representative(COR), as the representative of the organization which OWNS your Troop, is well within his rights to take a stricter stand on a policy than National. It seems to me that if you truly want to push this issue, the only person that you have left is the head of your Troops Charter Organization(CO). And NO, your Troop can NOT have two Charter Organizations. I suggest you call your council to see what CO is listed on the charter, as well as who is listed as the Institutional Head, and the registered COR, and get contact information for them.

Yes, but to continue your workplace analogy, while Associate Thingy Bobbers in both the Sales and Accounting departments might have the same basic job description, co-workers in the Sales department would have little knowledge of what the extras are that need to be done by the Associate Thingy Bobber in the Accounting department. To find out what those are the Associate Thingy Bobber in the Accounting department needs to ask other people in the same Accounting department. Asking folks in different departments, or even folks in the Accounting department of the company across the street, will not help with their SPECIFIC duties, in their SPECIFIC Accounting department. As I said, Packs are all different, start with the basic BSA job description, and then find out what the SPECIFIC needs of YOUR Pack are. Just keep in mind that the Cubmaster does not work FOR you. The CM works WITH you, and you both work for the Charter Organization.

>>"In my past and current paid jobs if I only did what the "rules" (job description) stated and didn't learn about or do the little extra unwritten things that were expected of me then I think I would have been in trouble."

We give the new 5th graders a necker slide with the AOL arrow on it, and a vittle kit. Their part of the graduation ceremony is to move on to the last leg of their Cub Scout trail, toward AOL, and Boy Scouting.

From the BSA "Scouting for Youth With Disabilities Manual", under the Cub Scouting Program - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34059.pdf "The advancement program is flexible. With guidance, most boys can learn and perform the skills. Advancement requirements should not be watered down or eliminated for boys with disabilities. The speed at which requirements are completed and the means of explaining them might need to be adjusted and simplified. It might take longer for a Scout with a disability to earn his awards. The standard for every boy is, Has he done his best? BSA's Cub Scout Leader Book also has an entire chapter on Cub Scouts with disabilities. What, specifically, are your issues? (This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

What is "in the rule books" IS what a CC should be doing. If you have taken the trainings, and know what a CC SHOULD be doing, what difference does it make what other CC's, in other Packs, are doing? Not every BSA unit is run correctly. Not everything you are told will be correct. Why would you agree to take a job when you do not plan on doing what "the rules" require of you? Would you do that in your paid job? If you did, how long would you expect to keep it? Work with your Charter Organization, and your Cubmaster. Do the job that BSA expects of you to the best of your ability, and you, and your Pack, will be in fine shape.

I suggest that if you are at all interested in taking on this position that you take the required basic training online first. https://myscouting.scouting.org/ Basic training for the Committee Chair position is - Youth Protection This Is Scouting Pack Committee Fast Start Leader Position Specific for Pack Committee You can find information on what BSA considers the responsibilities of the Pack Committee Chair here - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack/pcomm.aspx It states the responsibilities are - Maintain a close relationship with the chartered organization representative, keeping this key person informed of the needs of the pack that must be brought to the attention of the organization or the district. Report to the chartered organization to cultivate harmonious relations. Confer with the Cubmaster on policy matters relating to Cub Scouting and the chartered organization. Supervise pack committee operation by Calling and presiding at pack leaders' meetings. Assigning duties to committee members. Planning for pack charter review, roundup, and reregistration. Approving bills before payment by the pack treasurer. Conduct the annual pack program planning conference and pack leaders' meetings. Complete pack committee Fast Start Training and Basic Leader Training for the position. Ask the committee to assist with recommendations for Cubmaster, assistant Cubmasters, Tiger Cub den leaders, Cub Scout den leaders, and Webelos den leaders, as needed. Recognize the need for more dens, and see that new dens are formed as needed. Work with the chartered organization representative to provide adequate and safe facilities for pack meetings. Cooperate with the Cubmaster on council-approved money-earning projects so the pack can earn money for materials and equipment. Manage finances through adequate financial records. Maintain adequate pack records and take care of pack property. If the Cubmaster is unable to serve, assume active direction of the pack until a successor is recruited and registered. Appoint a committee member or other registered adult to be responsible for Youth Protection training. Provide a training program for adult family members. Develop and maintain strong pack-troop relationships, sharing with the troop committee the need for graduations into the troop. Work closely with the unit commissioner and other pack and troop leaders in bringing about a smooth transition of Webelos Scouts into the troop. Help bring families together at joint activities for Webelos dens (or packs) and Boy Scout troops. Support the policies of the BSA. Some of these things can be accomplished by recruiting committee members to do them, such as, a Treasurer, Secretary, Pack Trainer, etc.

The BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book states that Scouts should use the Buddy System. They should have a "buddy" with them when ever they meet with a Merit Badge Counselor. However, that buddy can be just about anyone at all. Some of the people a Scout can use as a buddy are, another Scout, a parent/guardian, a friend, a relative, etc.

As you have already paid your Troop for the entire trip, make darn sure they give you a full refund because they are the ones cancelling, not you. It is a shame to waste your time/trouble/money and Sea Base medical. If you go to Scout "Connections", on the Sea Base Web site - http://www.bsaseabase.org/ScoutConnections.aspx There are plenty of crews looking for extra members for trips in July, and August, of this year. There is also an opening for 4 people on a Keys Adventure starting on 07-17-11.

>>"I pointed out that there are always visitors at camps"

What is the time frame you are looking at? Our Pack has been around for 50+ years. I have been registered with them for about 15 years. In those 15 years only a small handful did not earn AOL. I would say that at least 80% joined a Boy Scout Troop. Only about 20% were still registered in a Troop after the first year. The Troops did not keep the interest of the majority of the boys.

I would first contact council to see if they would have a problem approving a Tour Plan with two starting points. If you receive council approval (get a contact name), then contact your COR, explain the situation, and give them the council contact name so council's approval can be verified. The Tour Plan does not have to be signed by your Committee Chair. It can be signed by EITHER the CC, OR the COR. If you file a separate Tour Plan for just you and your son, it would be considered a separate trip, and would need a second adult. The original Tour Plan would also then need a second adult. If there is another adult and youth willing to go on this trip, why did they not sign up originally? How are the 6 in Chicago getting to Ohare? That should be included in the itinerary also. Per the Sea Base Web site, crew members can be added to the crew, up to the maximum number for the program you are doing, only up until the final payment is made. Your Troop can transfer the reservation for you and your son to another two people. If your Troop refuses to allow you on their reservation, you can contact Sea Base about connecting with a different group that has room for you, or a group that is short two people. Edited to add that if you are able to tack onto another Troop's trip, that trip would not necessarily be the same kind, or at the same time, as your Troop's.(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

>>"National and Council policies state that you MUST have a common departure point"

Sounds like this so-called "Pack" wants publicity for it's own program, and wants to force what it is doing on BSA so that it looks legit. There were a lot of better ways for this group to have approached this. Any negative publicity will affect the reputation, and perceived honesty (or lack of it), of the the couple involved as well. Will council trust this couple to charter a BSA unit any more? I doubt it. Will these children and their parents trust Scouting again? I doubt that too. Will this council trust it's staff to know what to say to reporters? Hopefully not with out putting them thru a little common sense publicity training!

So, to clarify - Your Webelos den leader is also the CC of your Pack, and the CC of Troop A. The CM of your Pack, is also the COR for Troop A. You, and another Webelos dad both have older sons in Troop B, and are both Committee Members of Troop B. Troop B is the Troop inviting the Webelos from various Packs to go on an inner tube float trip down a river. I take it that neither Troop's (A or B) Charter Organization also charters a Pack? Or, at the least, that your Pack does not have the same Charter Organization as either Troop A, or Troop B? First of all, have you ever done an inner tube float on a river with Webelos before, and gotten a Tour Plan approved for it? Personally, I find that a tube float for Webelos from multiple Packs is an iffy proposition at best. While the Boy Scouts in your Troop are guided by one set of safety policies, Webelos are still Cub Scouts and are guided by Cub Scout safety policies. The Age-Appropriate Guidelines state that Webelos are OK to do tubing. However, the Guide to Safe Scouting states - "Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council or district events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions). Safety Afloat standards apply to the use of canoes, kayaks, rowboats, rafts, floating tubes, sailboats, motorboats (including waterskiing), and other small craft, but do not apply to transportation on large commercial vessels such as ferries and cruise ships." "For Cub Scouts, the leadership ratio is one trained adult, staff member, or guide per five participants." If you intend to take Webelos, all Safety Afloat rules must be used. All Webelos, and their attending parents, must give the Troop trip leader a current health form, and be classified as a "swimmer" by a BSA swim test. Your usual Webelos would not have taken a BSA swimming classification test. How does your Troop plan on verifying the swimming ability of any Webelos that wants to attend? It sounds like your Troop is planning on taking few, if any, Webelos parents along. Again, personally, I would have a hard time sending my 9-10 year old Webelos son alone, on a river tubing trip, with a Troop I do not know well, if at all. Webelos are not Boy Scouts and can not do all of the things that Boy Scouts do. I would limit invitations to Webelos dens to regular weekend campouts that have skills/activities, and the safety policies for them, at the Cub Scout level. Back to your dilemma about contact info for your Pack's Webelos. Call your Cubmaster. If he will not give you a den roster, call your Pack's Charter Organization Rep (COR). There is no reason for the list not to be available to the den parents.

The Tour Planning Worksheet, & Tour Plan, ask for ALL of the details covering "all travel between (point a) and (point b). Your trip starts in Illinois, ends at Sea Base. The Plan also asks for an itinerary for each day of the trip. On the first line of the itinerary, on date 1, you travel from Hometown, IL airport to Fort Lauderdale, FL airport. On the second line, also on day 1, you travel from Vacationtown, CT airport, to Fort Lauderdale, FL airport. Then you go on from there.

We make aisles on the either side of our meeting area, and run relay races. Having 2-4 races running splits the kids (we include siblings) up so it does not take as long. Parents of the kids in each race group supervise the races. We run these before award presentations so having the parents in charge gives the den leaders some time to organize for awards. We still do fun themes, even though BSA has dumped them in favor of Core Values, so the race varies depending on what the theme of the evening is. For a space, or dinosaur, theme, we have done the "hatch the egg" (space alien/dinosaur) race where the boy runs to a chair, and "hatches" a blown up balloon "egg" by sitting on it and popping it, then races back. We have done a feather toss relay for Indian themes. A snowball relay shoveling cotton ball snowballs from one bucket to another using a spoon. Dress-up relays are fun. Wheelbarrow, or octopus, relays using groups of 2-3 at a time. The hula hoop one is always fun, and can be a bigger challenge if you include parents. There are lots of ways to do these, they are active, fun, can include everyone, and they go fairly quickly.

>>"The kid needs only to say "Knock if off dude, Quit already! Get a life!""

BSA policy on hazing, bullying, and sexual harassment, is extremely clear - it is not tolerated in any form and can result in a loss of BSA membership. Your council camp should have explicit policies for it's staff concerning hazing, bullying, and harassment. This incident IS sexual harassment. The youth staff are role models for the youth campers. What kind of behavior are they modeling by calling this CIT by a name that has overt sexual connotations that many of the youth campers would know about? Per BSA's Youth Protection Guide for Camp Staff - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/623-127.pdf "The first step in addressing sexual harassment would be to confront the wrongdoer and inform him or her that the behavior is not wanted and ask for the behavior to stop. The next step would be to report specific objectionable behaviors to the supervisor and request that the supervisor intervene." "Bullying is not a right of passage or simply part of growing up." ScoutmasterT3, talk to your Scout to find out what the camp's policies are for it's staff. Encourage him to follow those policies (most likely they are similar to what is quoted above). Let him know that you will back him 100% (even be there with him if necessary) if/when he has to report this to his supervisor, Senior Staff member, or Camp Director. However, it should be HIM doing the reporting, not you.

As Moose and Twocub stated, there are other ways to get the contact info you need. The easiest way to get Scout contact info is to talk to the parents and Scouts in those 20 minutes you are waiting for the den leader to show up. Since is is now most likely past your last regular den meetings, giving your CM, or CC, a call and asking for a roster for the Pack, or the two Webelos dens, is the next best way (my Pack hands out a Pack roster to all leaders, and has den and Pack rosters available to all on ScoutManage). The easiest way to get Troop contact info is to check out Beascout.org to see what info is there, and then call your council offices for any other needed contact information. You might try reassuring the den leader that you are not recruiting for your Troop (as you know that he would not do for his Troop either), but simply helping him to help the Webelos to meet their badge requirements, get a sense of a variety of Troops, and get better prepared for Boy Scouts (no matter where they go).

Are you the assistant for your son's Webelos den? Do you camp? Since the den leader does not camp, and it sounds like he could use a bit of help, how about talking to him, and offering to be responsible for the den on the camping trip with the Troop? By the way, it does not matter what other positions this Webelos den leader holds outside of the Pack.

Getting replies on a forum that folks have joined just so that they CAN answer questions, help folks, and learn new things in return, is NOT the same as getting an unwilling person to volunteer to be den leader by passing out a sign-up list to 60 people. As you stated, you tried it at your B&G, and it did not work. Out of 60 adults you got 0 volunteers on the sign-up sheet. BSA recommends identifying the best choices for the position, then sending 1 or 2 folks, armed with any and all information about the position that could be needed, to ask the Pack's choices face to face. You start asking the best choice, and if they don't agree you go down the list to #2, and so on until you have a yes. Here is BSA's "Selecting Cub Scout Leadership" from the BSA National Web site - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-500.pdf

My experience is that the boys that tend to drop out by Webelos do so because of their leaders, not the program. They are also going into middle school with all that entails with school and their peers. The leaders get bored/burned out, and start doing the minimum, or less. This makes the boys bored, and their other options start looking pretty darn good. Somehow I doubt that the way that KISMIF runs his Webelos program is simply an outstanding exception to the poor to mediocre rule. Most of the Webelos dens in my area, including those in my Pack, are run this way. Stop blaming the Webelos program when it is the den leaders (like your Bear DL) that just don't seem to care. Perhaps what you should do is to recruit a new Webelos den leader instead of stripping the Webelos program.

From your profile your position in the Pack is that of den leader. The decision on whether or not this parent becomes a den leader is up to the Pack Committee Chair, and the Charter Organization, not other den leaders. That decision is usually based on if they feel the volunteer will do a god job. The decision of whether or not the Cub Scout stays in Tigers for a second year is something that should be discussed between the Cubmaster, Committee Chair, and the parents. The final decision is really up to the parents on what they feel is best for their son. It has nothing to do with anyone else in the Pack.