ScoutNut

>>"You are certainly entitled to your own prejudices. That's what they are."

>>"So here we have BSA application "A." It is signed by a real parent for a real boy and paid for with real dollars. Is this an application you'd accept or not?"

Wow, my question is where do you camp that has a water faucet in the campsite? We usually have to hike to the pump!

>>"Maybe he gets something out of it, maybe he doesn't."

So what does the boy get out of it? He is registered with BSA. He never attends meetings, never advances, never goes to camp, never learns what it is to be a Scout. Never is really a Scout at all. Except on paper. So, how is that good for the boy?

Actually, the "official Tiger Cub Book" has the den leader signing off on each specific elective next to "Akela"'s (parent) signature. I always checked because there were often electives we did in the den that the parent did not include. It should have been easy enough for you to go thru and enter the specific electives completed online. If that was to much to do in order to insure your Tigers got their correct awards, you could have requested the Advancement Chair to simply check off any electives to match the number of beads you had requested. Or you could have gone to the Scout Shop yourself and purchased a packet or two of Tiger Track beads.

>>"Our new charter is behind us 100% and sees no reason not to use the school."

If you don't want to meet in the new council's area, and feel that you have the potential to draw even more than 32 Cubs from your own area (old council), why not just stop the drama, simplify everything, and find a Charter Organization in your old council? Personally, to me it does NOT sound like it is BSA not "looking out for whats best for the boys". It seems that it is more you, and your friends, with little to no knowledge of how BSA is really put together, or how it works, trying to force BSA to do things YOUR way, that is what is putting the boys program in jeopardy. By the way - How many Packs are/have you been affiliated with? Which Pack kept the popcorn money you felt belonged to your son? Which Pack received the generous gift of 18% popcorn profit from that Pack? Are you currently a member of any Pack? Are you a registered leader with BSA? If so, what is your registered position?

We do not tie our recruiting and our popcorn sale together at the same event. Recruiting is a year long activity. Our sign-up night is just that, a sign-up night for new families who we have recruited and have not yet registered. They pay their National registration $ to, and get Pack info, fliers on upcoming Pack activities, and their den Handbook, from the CM, and ACM. Their den leaders give them den specific info. We hold it as early as possible in the school year so that the dens can get into their den meetings right away if they want. The popcorn sale is for everyone, and is what makes it possible for us to not charge any Pack dues, and to give our Scouts as much as we do. We hold our popcorn kickoff party for everyone (old and new) right before the Council Show/Sell sale starts.

Our "official" sign-up night is in August just after school starts. We do this night for brand new sign-ups only. Den/Pack leaders explain their respective programs to the new families. Our "old" Scouts have never really left, and most have been active with us over the summer months so there is no need to "re-recruit" them. We hold it in the School/Parish Hall on a Friday evening. However, we keep recruiting by word of mouth all year long. Most of the den's start their regular meetings right after the Labor Day holiday. The Pack will hold a Popcorn Kick-off meeting/party in early September to get the forms/info out to all the families, and get sign-ups for Show/Sell Booth Sales. We do not do Scout Accounts. However, we do a number of Pack incentives, on top of the council ones. We do not charge any Pack dues. Our Pack popcorn sale funds our program for the entire year. We like to keep the cost per family as low as possible. Our September Pack meeting (at the end of the month) is a welcome for any new members, awards ceremony for any completed Bobcats, Tiger Totems, summer awards, and any things completed during the month of September. We always include fun gathering activities, and a fun game/song for everyone (including parents and siblings) to participate in. The game/song is usually popcorn related to go along with our popcorn sale update/encouragement.

>>"I had an issue with Tiger Beads for My Tigers because apparently the program they used required each bead to be broken down by every elective..where as the Book said for each paw do any elective and Color the Paw when Complete get a Bead...No record had to be kept explaining detailed elective count"

>>"We had a cub master who was not youth protected go on several events including a over night and it was covered up by council.">"We had a meeting to have him removed. We had at least 95% want him to be removed and council lied and kept him in. We picked a new cub master and council went out of it's way not to allow this individual in.">"We decide to change councils. We are located on the county line. We were just informed that we can't do any scouting in our county to which we most live."

Are these complaints related to the popcorn fundraiser at your old Pack? If so, see my response to your post on popcorn credit. If not, what - EXACTLY - were these "serious issues", and "abuse of power"?

I am sorry that the financial side of the Pack was never explained to you. When you changed Packs, your original Pack was under absolutely no obligation to send ANY of the money in his Scout account over to your new Pack. That they are willing to give his new Pack 18% is extremely nice of them. In BSA the local council issued a charter to local organizations giving them the right to use the BSA program. These Charter Organizations own their BSA units (Pack, Troop, Team, Crew, Ship). All funds raised in the name of Scouting, and and in the name of a BSA Scouting unit (Pack, Troop, Team, Crew, Ship), belong to that unit, and are the responsibility of the Charter Organization that owns the unit. Bottom line, your former Pack's popcorn sale was not a for-profit business for your son. The Pack Scout accounts are PACK funds which the PACK ALLOWS it's members to use for certain Scout related costs within the PACK. Once you left, and were no longer a member of that Pack, they were under no obligation to share PACK FUNDS, with another Pack. Also, because of the nature of not-for-profits, and the IRS, giving any Pack money to your son directly could void their not-for-profit status, and incur for your son taxes due to the IRS on what would be considered income to your son. Take the 18%, and say thank you to BOTH your old, and new Pack for being so accommodating.

Things needed on Cubtrails - The ability to go back to edit a meeting, or activity. Better forms. Forms that can be downloaded as a spreadsheet that I can manipulate how I want them. Ability to add Pack specific awards.

Cubtrails looks interesting, but has a few flaws. No way to edit meetings/activities after input, and the forms are rather useless. Also, no way to add Pack specific awards. Good start!

A big question is what was this fundraiser advertised to the public as? Was it advertised as "Send our Pack to Camp"? Send little Jimmy, and Johnny here to Camp? Or was it "Buy tickets to help Pack 1234"? Big difference. Also, when you say "We actually don't help with any boys or leaders camp fees.", that is not entirely accurate. By providing these money earning activities, and putting profits in Scout Accounts, you are allowing individual Cub Scouts use of PACK FUNDS. Remember, this is Scouting, not a mini business for each Cub and his family. Any and all funds raised in the name of your Pack, belong to your Pack. BTW, just curious, have all of these Camp money earning activities been approved by your council? http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34427.pdf

>>" And yeah, I know testing isn't allowed. But that' my whole point, maybe it shgould be.">"The AC can compare the listed requirements on the BC that the counselor signed off and compare them to the book. During the BOR, the AC can ask questions that are not testing that can still let the AC know if the scout actually went over this stuff during the MB process."

What to do now - Contact Camp Director and let him know. This guy might be pulling this at every camp, all Summer long. Find out (from CD) if this was the actual counselor, or just a helper. If it was an actual registered counselor, contact the Council Advancement Chair and let them know their counselor is not really counselling. Let your Advancement Chair, and SM, know so that they never use this guy for any badges. SM, and/or AC, should talk to the Scouts in the Troop who went to Summer Camp. They need find out if anyone had this guy for Robotics, or any other badges. The Robotics badge is a no-go. Anyone with that badge is out of luck. As for other badges earned at Summer Camp, and Merit Badge fairs, that is a slippery slope, and one often debated here. Personally, I do not like the idea of an AC quizzing the Scouts to make sure they "actuallu understands what he learned ( or "supposedly" learned )". What criteria does the AC use to judge what/if the Scout "understands" anything? Does the AC "understand" every merit badge? Nope, this, in my opinion, is not the job of the AC. BSA states that once a card is signed that is that. If feel that for the most part, we trust the merit badge counselors are doing their job correctly. Going over every requirement with the Scout, after the fact, undermines the program. We are teaching our Scouts to live by the Scout Law. We need to show them that we trust them to do just that. For me, unless I know for sure a MB Counselor was not doing his/her job, I would trust/accept their signature, and their word. However, once I knew they were inept, they would not be working with any of my Scouts. Edited to take off questions already answered while I was typing!(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

>>"I turned down a fathers request to go camping as a family."

>>"If you and your husband were paying to be rechartered, and found the unit did not put you on the charter, well ask for that money back."

There is no need for your 2nd grader, who does not like to read, to read an entire book. Reading an article on the internet with the info needed would work. There are a lot of sites out there on chess players. I would even take the famous person who plays chess route if it sparks your son's interest.

As another mentioned, I am rather amazed that after 14 years of leadership in the BSA you have no clue as to how the organization is put together. Have you never taken any training at all? Have you never read any BSA literature? Oh, well, water, bridge, that sort of thing. Here is a quick/dirty wrap-up of how the BSA is organized - The BSA National organization is made up of 4 Regions, with 33 areas. The National offices are in Irving, Texas. BSA National grants two types of charters. The first is a charter to create a local council. The second type of charter is to local organizations (church, school group, civic organization,etc). The second type of charter is based on recommendations from the local council. These charters give the local organizations the right to use the BSA Scouting programs as "outreach" programs for their youth. NOTE - This is the important part - The local Chartered Organizations are "OWNER-OPERATORS" of their Scouting programs. In other words the Charter Organization OWNS each of the BSA units (Pack/Troop/Team/Crew/Ship) chartered to it. BSA might own the programs, and give help and support, but the Charter Organization (CO) owns the unit itself. Barring a youth protection issue brought out by the background check preformed by National, the CO has the ultimate say so on WHO the members of it's units are, and WHO it's leaders are. Sometimes, even if the background check has turned up something, if a CO goes to bat for the leader, they often will get their volunteer of choice registered with BSA. The Charter Organization Representative (COR) is, as the title suggests, the representative of the CO. The COR represents the CO's interests to it's units, and to the local council, and district. Bottom line, you were complaining to folks who had NO SAY SO AT ALL on whether or not you and your husband were kept as leaders in your CO's Pack and Troop. Your District Executive (DE), and Sr DE, can NOT tell your CO either to kick you out, or to bring you back. They had NO AUTHORITY to tell you and your husband to march in that parade as leaders. Complaining to your Mayor, and NJ Senator, was just plain silly, and a waste of your (and their) time, because neither of them have anything at all to do with BSA, or your Charter Organization, and cannot impact the decisions of either organization. Way back, 6+ years ago, when the SM started insulting, and harassing you, you should have gone first to talk to your COR. If that produced no results, you should have next gone to talk to the head (IH) of your Chartering Organization. The IH, and the COR, are the ONLY two folks who have the say as to who is, and is not a leader in their units. As to the grab/drag/bruising parade incident, that also should have been immediately reported to your COR, and/or IH. After that it was up to you if you wanted to file charges against any of the parties involved (SM, ASM, CO, parade organizers, etc). Now, since your Chartering Organization, and it's COR, are backing up the SM, it is a bit to late to get back to being a leader with these units. But, good grief, why on earth would you want to!? Stop calling your Mayor, Senators, DE's, SE's, etc.. Cut your losses. Find a GOOD Troop for your younger son to join, and forget all about this toxic one.

Why on earth would you have your son join a Pack with someone you characterize as "SATAN INCARNATE", and then stay there, putting up with "verbally abused me,gossiped,spread lies,etc etc for 6 YRS" ?? Six years, really? I would not have stayed six minutes. Then, to top it off, since you obviously did not get enough the prior six years, you put your son in the Troop "SATAN INCARNATE" was SM of, and stayed with him for another two years! Stop the drama/insanity. Find a new Troop for your sons to join, and take a bit of a break from leadership yourself.

>>" The feeding could have been easily accomplished either before or after the BOR."