ScoutNut

Actually, Tiger Dens have been operating under the "Shared Leadership" principal for many years and still are operated that way today. Acco40 did a fairly good job of describing how Tiger Dens should be currently run. However, the other Cub Scout dens are not run that way. It is fine to use your families as resource people for particular things. Also, in Webelos dens using your parents skills to teach a specific activity badge is strongly encouraged. But the designated den leader and his/her assistant(s) are the ones who run the dens.

From what you say, it is your District Executive (DE) who is telling you you must take the boy into your Pack, NOT your Charter Organization (CO) and Charter Organization Rep (COR). Your CO and COR are saying that they do NOT want the family at all. Your DE is very wrong. A unit (Pack, Troop, Crew) is owned by their CO not by the council. A CO has the right to accept or not accept any boy, or adult into their unit. Just because your CO is a school does not mean they have to accept everyone, no matter what. Your council can not say that if a boy goes to such and such school he MUST go to such and such Pack. We just had a 3rd grade boy join our Pack because he and his family were not happy with the Pack at his school. I would have your Cubmaster and your Charter Org Rep talk to your District Executive again. If this does not work they should then go to your council's Scout Executive (head of the entire council).

BDL101 - Are there any other Packs nearby that this family could transfer to?

The "Porkies" are great! Not exactly the Rockies though, LOL! I don't know about any local troops or BS camps, but Porcupine Mountain State Park is a wonderful place for backpacking. Lake of the Clouds and Mirror Lake are wonderful. There is also downhill and cross country skiing. They do not have winter camping, but you should contact the state park for information. They should know where you could find campgrounds that are open in the area. One thing to keep in mind, there are black bear living in the park so precautions should be taken.

As has been stated here, Den Chief is strictly a Boy Scout position and she would not be eligible to wear the Den Chief position patch or cords. If your female Venturer has taken Program Aide training for GS, she can apply the hours spent working with a Cub Scout Den towards her Program Aide patch. There is also Leader-In-Training and various GS service/leadership awards she can put the hours towards. She just must remember that unlike BSA, GSUSA does NOT allow "double dipping". If she uses the hours towards her PA patch she can't use the same hours towards any other requirements.

Jamie - All I can tell you is that my daughter and the rest of her troop, who are all 18 yr old Senior Girl Scouts, agree with you. Why don't you go to the GSUSA national website, or the Studio 2B site, and send them an e-mail with your opinion. Don't know if it will help, but it sure can't hurt!

As OutdoorThinker noted, GSUSA does not have 5 year old's running meetings. What GSUSA has is "progression". They start out small and work their way towards a fully girl run troop by the time the girls are Senior Girl Scouts (high school). It starts with the girls deciding what field trips they want to go on after being given a choice of several different ones by their leaders. It progresses to the girls picking their own troop government in 1st grade. The girls pick which badges to work on, what they want to do during the year, figure out how much it will cost the troop to do all of these things, decide if they will participate in their council fundraisers, and how much they need to sell in order to fund their troop. Ideally, if there is a decision to be made regarding the troop, it is the girls who make it. This starts out with the leaders offering the options, guiding the selection process, and having the final yes or no. As the girls get better at it the leaders slowly give over more and more responsibilty to their girls. There is also an element of service in lots of what each level does. The girls are encouraged to work with different levels of girls and to participate in service projects and eventually to create their own (Bronze Award-Juniors, Silver Award-Cadettes, Gold Award-Seniors). But, as with everything in both programs, the program is only as good as the leaders who deliver it! In Tigers the boy is supposed to work WITH his adult partner when it is their turn to lead meetings. The concept of letting the kids have a say in what their group does can be fairly easily translated to all of Cubs. The leaders just have to start asking the boys which things they want to do instead of making all the decisions for them.

I do not have a copy in front of me, but I believe that the Cub Scout Academics and Sports guide states that the program is specificaly for Cub Scouts and that it can be earned by Tigers, Wolves, Bears and Webelos, but not by adults. As for doing merit badge requirements before the boy is a registered Boy Scout - HUH ??? That is just silly. There is NO level in Scouts (Tigers thru Eagle) where you can allow activites to count before the boy is actually a scout. That would be like saying that you could count taking your son to the zoo when he was 6 months old for the Bear advancement requirement "Sharing Your World With Wildlife". Either this man is just pulling your leg or he needs training REAL BAD!

Belt loops & pins can be earned more than once. When they get to Webelos, if they have already earned the belt loops they need at a lower scout level, they will have to re-earn them again as a Webelos. Idealy they should do different requirements or do them more in depth.

I feel lucky just to see my card before it has expired for the year! My council is not real good about getting them out, to the boys or adults.

The Blue & Gold is the name of a Cub Scout celebration honoring the birthday of Cub Scouting in the USA. It is normally held in February, the month of BSA's birthday, and takes the place of that month's Pack meeting. Everything that you usually do at your monthly Pack meetings (recognizing boy's achievements/advancements, songs, skits, etc) should be done at Blue & Gold as well. A meal of some sort is usually held along with some kind of special entertainment. A boy is eligible to join Boy Scouts when he is 11 years old - OR - has completed the 5th grade - OR - has earned the Arrow of Light. Whenever one of these requirements has been met the boy can "crossover" to Boy Scouts. Traditionally, the 5th grade Webelos Den is either awarded their AOL award, crossed over to Boy Scouts, or both at the February Blue & Gold celebration. The Blue and Gold is also the time when, traditionally, each Cub Den receives their rank badges in an appropriate ceremony. But this is not written in stone. Boys should receive their recognitions and rank badges as soon as possible after earning them. This means that it is possible to have rank advancements at every monthly Pack meeting. It all depends on the boys! Question - How can your old Pack be holding crossover ceremonies if the Pack has been dissolved?

Youth : 0 years Adult : 12 years with GSUSA 9 years with BSA

Alpha - Have you considered Sat or Sun meetings so the ADD girls would be more attentive? Make sure that the girls leading the activites do their best to keep them short, sweet, to the point, and lots of hands on. Maybe you could get them talking about ADD and their experiences. It would help the girls who aren't ADD to understand.

Jamie - Cardboard box ovens just need to be wiped out on the inside with a damp cloth. They should be stored where ever you have the room, being careful not to crush them. If they do get trashed it is easy enough to make new ones. Buddy burners need to be refilled with wax as needed. No cleaning required. I just put mine inside my coffee can stove, put the lid on and store in a plastic grocery bag. Camp stoves should not need much maintainence either. I simply wash my Coleman stove with a warm soapy cloth or scrub sponge to remove spills. If something major breaks most camping gear stores carry replacement parts. I hope this helps. There isn't a lot of "care" involved in any of these.

Captainron - You friend in another council is sadly mistaken. I say sadly, because the boy he is counseling to do this is going to have big problems when the time comes for has Eagle application to be approved. The application lists the positions which can be used and that's it. Where, if not the BS Handbook or the Eagle application, is your friend getting his information?

Actually, NWScouter, Sender stated that they started in May, 2003, at the end of THIRD grade, not 4th. He is planning to cross them into Boy Scouts in May, 2004, when they are 10.5 years old and finishing forth grade. They will have been in the Webelos program 12 months. As Bob White stated they will be eligible. I too have some conflicted feelings on weather they will be ready for the Boy Scout Program. They have had only 1 Webelos overnight and that was way back in the summer when they were brand new Webelos. They attended a Troop Camporee, which, unless there were activities specificaly designed for the Webelos level, BSA does not want Webelos doing. I can understand that some of the boys have been "in" scouting since before they were even Tigers, but that does not mean they should rush thru their final time as Cub Scouts. Then there is the fact that they are going to be going to summer camp with the Troop immediately after crossing over to BS. They might not even get a chance to attend any regular Troop meetings or even achieve Scout status before they are expected to pull their own weight as part of a patrol at summer camp. Bottom line is that it is up to Sender to decide what works for his Webelos. I just hope that it is the boys who are pushing to get to Boy Scouts and not Sender who is burned out by Cubbing and wants to get to Boy Scouts with both his sons ASAP. Being "rejuvenated" as the WDL is wonderful, but not so wonderful if it is because he will finally be able to get out of Cub Scouts and into Boy Scouts.

Just wondering how your Cubmaster is "singling" out your Webelos. What kind of "harsher details" and "less positive attention" ?

How about some knot tying and building stuff. Simple things like a camp stool or maybe a competition of some kind. What's your Troop's favorite indoor game? Our's is Broom Ball. Kind of like hockey with a ball and brooms. The guys teach this game to every Webelos group. Make scarf slides. Make them something unique to the campout. What kinds of things does the Troop usually do when it is raining. Just take those and scale them for Webelos.

One question - If the Scoutmaster was holding this scout's SM Conference for Star Rank, why weren't all of the requirements already signed off? If the Scoutmaster was second guessing a requirement that had already been signed off, that was wrong. It doesn't matter if the scout admitted he did nothing much during the tenure of his leadership position. If the requirement has been signed off it is not up to the SM to question it. What he needs to do is make sure this boy has the opportunity in the future to perfect his leadership skills.

KoreaScouter - If your daughter has gone to summer camp she has most likly been exposed to young women and older scouts helping run the camp. The GS Junior Badges and Cadette/Senior Interest Projects, are full of requirements such as - "show a group of younger scouts how to do this", or "share your skills with others". The Junior Aide badge, the Junior Leadership Pin, and the Junior Bronze Award all have elements of service and leadership. They just do not necessarily require it be with younger scouts. If your daughter earned her Bridge to Junior GS award she worked with both younger and older GS. All Bridging awards have this element in them. Girl Scouting is all about progression. Once she becomes a Cadette and then a Senior scout there will be many more opprtunities for her to work with younger scouts. There is Cadette and Senior Program Aide, Leader-in-Training, Counselor-in-Training, and Apprentice Trainer to name a few. Like Den Chief however, it is up to the leaders of the younger troops to take advantage of the girls and their skills. Of course, once the current Cadette and Senior programs have been replaced by Studio 2B (which is happening now even though they keep saying S2B is only in the evaluation stage) you might not have these opportunities any more.

We save Craftsman for our 2nd year Webelos. The final project is always building the Pinewood Derby car stands for our January Derby. They build 1 stand for each boy in our Pack so it can be a big job. They come up with the design themselves so each year is something new and different. The design is also kept a secret from everyone else, so part of the excitement of Derby day is seeing what the stand looks like! One stand version that might work for you is one that was made of old tree limbs. They used a larger slice for the base, a taller stick that was screwed onto the bottom piece, and another, smaller slice that was sitting on edge, on the base against the stick. This smaller slice had written on it, in either marker or wood burner, - Pinewood Derby 2004 Pack 123 The car can be screwed onto the top of the stick or a platform can be made of a limb slice with a twig ledge hot glued to the front edge. If you cut the top of the stick at a slight angle towards the front then screw on the platform the car will just sit against the twig ledge and you will not have to screw the car on (many boys do not want screws in their car!). This should not cost you much, but you will have to find someone who has cut down a tree and is willing to give you the wood! The boys love doing this for the Pack and get very competitive about their design being better than other years!

I presented the program to my girls when it first came out. They were less than impressed. As a matter of fact they were rather insulted that GSUSA would provide a program that encouraged girls to pretend they were not Girl Scouts. They felt the materials were way to expensive and that the cost could add up to quite a bundle by the time you finished. The topper was when National came out with the rule that you could subsitute earning a charm for earning an IP and apply it to your Silver or Gold. They feel that it might appeal somewhat to 5th, 6th & 7th graders (because of the charms), but beyond that, if girls are still in Scouting it won't be because of Studio 2B. Remember, this is the opinion of my girls only. They are also currently in 12th grade and waiting on approval of their Gold Award project. Maybe you could borrow some of the books from your council so you could let your girls look at them without forking over big bucks. Give them the facts and let your girls decide. If they have never been Girl Scouts before this program might interest them.

Please, Please, Please do NOT treat these boys like overgrown Bear Scouts! They are a part of your Den Leadership team and should be included in all planning meetings and Den activities. Having the boys responsible for the gathering and all games and songs is a great way to start. As the boys all get to know each other and the Den Chiefs get more comfortable in their roll you can expand their responsibilites. There are a number of Bear achievements that would be just down a Boy Scouts alley! Flag ceremony, games/sports, physical fitness, knife safety, ropes and knots, just to name a few. Let them teach some of these achievements to the Bears. Let the Den Chiefs help present awards to their Den at Pack meetings. If your Pack does camping, have the Den Chief's plan a campfire ceremony. They have learned quite a bit in Boy Scouts, let them share what they know with your Bears and you!

SPL - You say that your SM is not to blame. You are wrong. He is the one who is leaving the handling of this whole family up to you. With his background in Scouting he should know better! Talk to him, and the sooner the better. Let him know how the other 10 boys in the Troop feel about how the Troop has been running lately. I think the advice you received here about being extremely polite to this women and taking her to talk to the SM everytime she starts up with you or one of the other scouts is great advice. If you are in the middle of running a PLC then have one of the other boys take her to the SM. Maybe this will force him to actualy deal with her. And SPL, I hate to suggest this because you seem to really care about your Troop, but if your SM refuses to deal with this family then the only solution you may have is to go shopping for a new Troop. If you were my son (who is also 14!) I would advise you to take the 10 other boys and go on a Troop visit. All of you, together. When your Troop leadership realizes that you can very easily vote with your feet and leave them with a Troop of 1 maybe they will finally face the issue. Harsh, but what they are forcing you to deal with is WRONG!

From what I can tell there are no national rules governing Juliettes. Each council runs there own program and the way they do it varies from council to council. Contact your council's Membership Development Director and ask about the Juliette program. Are the other girls Juliettes also? In my council Juliettes can get together as a group (no formal group # since they are all registered individually) now and again to do things. This allows the Juliette to have some of the group interaction that a girl in a regular Troop does. It seems to me your council kind of went off the deep end. Especially with you receiving a nasty letter also. Contact your council immediatly and find out what is going on. There is no rule against girls getting together outside of a Troop meeting to work on badges together. Also, just because these parents have had their GSUSA membership revoked does NOT mean that they have to stop working with their daughters on badges. None of the adults "have" to be registered, unless your council requires a Juliette to have a registered advisor. Then that advisor does not have to be a family member.