ScoutNut

Welcome!! To introduce your Wolf Den to the outdoors, start with some fun hikes in the woods. Do you have any parks that would have Naturalist programs? That is a great place to start. As for camping, take BALOO training and then get your whole Pack out camping! Have FUN! (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

After 6 years of being a Tiger Den Leader, the one thing that I have found to be the major incentive for the boys staying in Scouts is the parents. If you can capture the parents the boys will stay. That is one of the main reasons for using shared leadership in Tigers. The parents have to feel like they are a part of the whole process. Of course there will be some who are happy being just a tiny part of it, but that's ok too. As long as they feel included, feel like it is THEIR Pack too, and have FUN with their son, they will be more likely to champion Scouts over (or at least along with) sports and other activities. My first year was pretty dismal due to many different factors. After that, by getting to know the parents, and making it fun for both the parents and the boys, things have gone great. The boys stay in and the parents stay involved. I also firmly believe that the new, more structured Tiger program has helped a lot. My first Tiger group to go all the way thru will be crossing over to BS in February. My son has been their Den Chief from the start so I know that there will be much sniffiling on my part! One bright spot is that the Pack is still keeping 2 of the families. One has a boy in my Tigers this year and the mom is high on my list for Wolf Leader. The other family has 2 boys who are still Cubs and the youngest who will be one of my Tigers next year. The dad is one of the current 5th grd Webelos leaders and I have already let him know not to get to comfortable being denless!

All of the leaders in a Pack (den and others) are a team. They do not work in a void. If one of the den leaders is having a problem they can give either you or the CC a call/e-mail (depending on what the problem is). Or, if it can wait until then, bring it up at your Committee meeting. The CC runs the Committee mettings. That doesn't mean they are in charge of everything. It means they coordinate the meeting. Some people find it helpful to have an adgenda so they remember to cover everything. For instance: Opening (we do a prayer) Last Pack Meeting (what worked what didn't) Treasurer Rpt Popcorn Kernal (final #'s, info on prizes, money due dates & Christmas Pie Toss) Christmas committee (Chair of christmas committee reports on how plans are going + discussion) Activity Committee (plans for any upcoming Pack outings discussed) Pinewood Derby Committee (how many cars are needed for Christmas, will Webelos be making car stands) B & G committee (invites, theme, caterer, prelim misc) Webelos Crossover (is SM actually going to show up and have a ceremony)(yes, we have issues LOL) Advancement (go over what is needed for Pack meeting) Next Pack Meeting (theme, who is doing what, ceremonies, activites planned by host den, etc) Misc (anything else that needs to be discussed and does not fall into any of the above areas) Closing (we do another prayer) That is pretty much what our committee meetings look like. Here is what Cub Scout Fast Start has to say (don't have anything else here at work!): "The pack committee oversees the pack program, helps the Cubmaster plan the upcoming pack meetings and activities, and makes necessary decisions about pack administration." and "At the leaders' meeting, the committee should review the pack meeting plans for the next few months, as well as plans for pack activities. The committee might also need to discuss issues of pack administration." also "The committee has many jobs to do, so most packs have committee members taking on specific responsibilities, such as advancement and outings." last but not least "Although the Cubmaster, Tiger Cub den leaders, Cub Scout den leaders, Webelos den leaders, and their assistants are not members of the pack committee, they attend the monthly pack leaders' meetings and participate in planning activities." Hope this all helps!

Years back, BSA reccomended separate Committee and Leaders meetings each month. This is no longer the case. The committee members, along with the other Pack leaders, meet once a month for a Pack leader's meeting. The Committee Chair runs the leader's meetings. The Cubmaster runs the Pack meetings. There is no need for a separate Den Leader meeting.

Tiger Dens can be fickle. Sometimes you have families just "trying out" Scouting and unless you can hook them in they give up at the first soccer game. The key is to make it FUN for the boys AND the adults! There is nothing wrong with Tigers meeting weekly. As a matter of fact that is how the BSA program helps for Tigers are laid out. You have 2 regular meetings, 1 field trip (Go-See-It) meeting, and 1 Pack meeting each month. One problem with your Tiger Den could be that it does not sound like they are following the Tiger program and using Shared Leadership. The Tiger families should all be signing up to lead meetings. This way the Den Leader is not doing EVERYTHING and the families are learning about Scouting and working together as a team. I agree that you should sit down with both leaders and find out what is going on. I would not be to quick to go along with the complaints of the one former family however. That sounds like a personality clash to me. Your goals should be to help your Tiger Leaders work better together, make sure the Tigers are getting a good program, and find ways to increase and/or fix the Tiger membership. Are both leaders trained? If not, get them trained ASAP. It will help.

Trevorum - The boy may NOT wear his actual UU award on his uniform, but he MAY wear the silver square knot on purple background patch on his BSA uniform.

Hey, everyone is entitled to a rant now and then. As a matter of fact, some of us carry our soap boxes in our back pocket the easier to pull out at a moments notice! LOL ! I also understand that you do not want to "undermine" your position with your Pack. However, a part of every committee meeting is (or should be) going over what worked and what didn't at the last Pack meeting. Politics, either pertaining to the BSA or not, has no place in a meeting that should have, as it's main purpose, the recognition of the boys. I am very suprised that nobody brought that up at your next Committee meeting. Of course, if everyone is just used to the CM doing this ALL the time, than that's a horse of a different color (& not a very pretty color!). OK - I'm off my box now! Good Luck & Remember - KISMIF !!!!!

"Be clear that he will not receive a religious emblem square knot and that the award is not permitted on a BSA uniform." Why can't his Troop present him the square knot? I understand that the Unitarian emblem itself can not be worn on the BSA uniform. However, nowhere that I can find, does it stipulate that the knot can be worn only for completing those religous emblem programs that BSA allows on it's uniform. The wording that I find is: "This knot may be worn by any Scout or Scouter that completed a religious emblem program as a youth member." No mention of only BSA approved programs. The only stipulation is that a program is completed while a youth. Those former Girl Scouts, 4-H, Campfire, etc, who are now BSA Unit Leaders are entitled to wear the knot if they completed a religious emblem program while a youth. They can not wear the emblem itself on their uniform. BSA does not recognize it. They can wear the knot. Give the young man the information on religious awards. If he decides to earn one of the Protestant awards, fine. He can wear both the medal and the knot. If he decides to earn his own organizations award, also fine. He can put it in a position of honor in his room and wear only the religious knot on his uniform.

If your school charters a Cub Pack they will "own" that Pack and can make any stipulations they like about membership as long as they do not go against BSA principles. That is their right. However - you said : "They basically believe that people that have "put something into the school" are much more likely to take care of it. So, groups that are not associated with the school are not allowed to use the school's resources. That is there policy." If the school is the charter organization for the Pack, doesn't that make the Pack "associated with the school"? If most of the Pack leadership has children in the school, doesn't that make the Pack "associated with the school"? If most of the boys go to the school, doesn't that make the Pack "associated with the school"? Why is it necessary for 100% of the leaders and boys to attend the school in order for the Pack to be "associated with the school"? The boys do not run wild, the adults should be in charge at all times. The Pack I work with is chartered by the Holy Name Society of our local Catholic Parish and meets in our parish school. This also is a private school that people pay to send their kids to. Although most of the families are members of the parish and attend the school, not all are. The Pack will accept any boys who want to join. They do not HAVE to attend the school, the church, or even be Catholic. This has worked fine for us. The boys are taught that they should behave like Scouts and for the most part do. Like I said at the beginning, your CO has the right to decide who their Unit's membership will be. However, I hope you could convince them that excluding boys is not necessary, only training leaders. Who knows, if you have some Scouts that don't go to the school, they might find that they like it so well they would want to attend!

Hey, if you have a Cubmaster and Committee Chair who are 2 different people, from 2 different families, you are a step ahead of a lot of Packs! Seriously, a Committee of a CC, CM, Treas, & DL's is not to awful. That is basicly who we have attend most of our Committee meetings. Our COR stops by occasionaly, usually when he has some news of interest. We have a standing invite for any parent to attend, our meeting dates are listed in our calendar, but none ever come. At your next Committee meeting you need to bring the CM to task for his rant on the ACLU. You are right, the Pack meeting was not the place for this. Bring up your concerns with how the Pack meeting went. This is the place to get any problems straightened out for next month's Pack meeting. One suggestion, ask if you can do the awards for your Den at the Pack meetings. Then find a fun way to present them to your boys that will have everyone wanting more the next month! Pratice a Den cheer with your boys, something with a LOUD wolf howl would be nice! Then at the end of their awards have the boys give their Den cheer REAL LOUD! That might wake up some of the other dens! Getting past the baggie & handshake can be hard if it is ingrained in the Pack. Do what you can to change it for your Den at least and others might see how much fun it is and try different things for themselves. BTW - flubs happen. Last June I had this great color changing ceremony I put together for all of the dens for their graduation. Water changed to a different color for each den to signify that they were ready to move up a level. Worked great, looked spify. I gave the ceremony to the Asst CM (my hubby) to run while I and some of the other DL's changed scarves, slides, and books. At one point I looked up and noticed that not only were the boys all gathered around the FRONT of the table watching the colors change, but that my rather large ACM guy was pouring the water while standing in FRONT of the table as well. Hissing, waving and even having my son, a Den Chief, tug him back, made no difference. When the next den came up he would be back in front pouring away and the boys would be right there with him, ooooh'ng & ahhhhh'ng. Of course no one else had a clue what was going on because they could not see it!!

Here's a great one for your Wolves - and Thanksgiving is the perfect time to gather the materials! http://www.e-scoutcraft.com/found/bone_wolf.html I made this at Pow Wow many years ago. It worked well even without painting it. I used red felt instead of paper. One caution - dogs seem to be drawn to this, mine ended up as kibble!

One of the SWAPS I noticed would be great for B&G. A square knot! One cord royal blue and the other gold. The ends of the cords would have to be whipped or burned, but it would be kwel!

Pine Cone w/wire loop hot glued for Fall Toy Car Wheel W/loop hot glued for Pinewood Derby Paperclip Angel for Christmas And my fav everyday one - Tree limb slice with Tiger paw print wood burned in. My fav one I did for the boys was for the Webelos crossing over to BS a few years back. I did a tree slice with the flur d' lies (sp?) shape burned in. You can go to the $1 or party stores and browse thru the small trinket section. Then just hot glue a wire loop to the back. Any Girl Scout SWAPS would work. Just attach a loop instead of a pin: http://parentingteens.about.com/cs/craftprojects/l/blswapsindex.htm http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/3392/swaps.html

I don't think that different Den flags is divisive. I think it looks great! Each Den makes their own flag each year, putting on it what ever they deem important. Some get very creative some are pretty basic. They look great set up by each Den at Pack meetings and the boys love making them! BTW - Would you say that Boy Scout Patrol flags are divisive? These are usually all hand made and VERY different!

In the last 2 years the DE and others from council have come to all of our Troops's Eagle COH's (approx 4). We invite the District Key 3 to the Pack's B&G every year. The DE came once, about 3 years ago. District FOS and Summer Camp Chairs come to the Troop and Pack meetings they are invited to speak at. I am planning to ask our District Cub Day Camp Chair (who is also RdTbl Chair) to come to a Pack meeting after the 1st of the year to get the Cubs phyched about "Knights of the Not-So-Round Table". Our DE has said that he would be happy to attend our roundups and do classroom talks if we wanted him to. We may take him up on the classroom talks next year. I don't believe anyone from council has ever dropped in unannounced to any Troop or Pack activity.

If you go to the bottom of the G2SS table of contents there is an Appendix titled "Updates". You will find all recent changes listed here. (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

Don't you just love the stuttering! Anyway - Sure why not! Yes, it is supposed to be a "Den" go see it, but if the whole Den is going on the field trip, great! A repeat visit, even to a different fire station, could be boring to the youngun's. There are lots of different things to do and see, for both achievements and electives, why repeat! Do your CM's fire house next year.

6 year old kindergarten Tigers, girls in Webelos. Is there a full moon or something?? What you folks don't seem to understand is that you CAN NOT do whatever you want and still expect to be a chartered unit of BSA. You CAN NOT simply say this person is registered in our Pack and make it the truth. First - The Pack's Charter Organization could loose it's charter. Second - You, and yes, I mean you PERSONALLY Den3702, along with all Unit Leaders, could possibly be sued for everything you have in this world if something were to happen to this girl at a Pack/Den activity. This girl is NOT a registered member of BSA and neither she or any of you are covered or protected by BSA insurance. It does not matter what your Webelos Den roster says. This girl is NOT a member of BSA and can not be until she is old enough to join a Venturing Crew! If she wants to join Cubs so bad have her parents join a Scouts Canada pack. Canadian Scouting is co-ed.

A few questions - If no registration form or fee was accepted by your Pack how can this child be a member? Was the Tiger Leader given a listing of REGISTERED Tiger Scouts? To the council folks here - will the scoutnet program even accept a registration of a 6 yr old in kindergarten? Final question - Does your CO, you, as CC, your past and present Cubmaster, and your Tiger Leader all REALLY want to face the possibility of losing EVERYTHING they have? I mean all personal assets, including house, car and bank accounts? That is a very real possibility if you continue to let this child attend Den meetings and Pack functions WITHOUT BEING REGISTERED. This is one obsessive parent whose child is NOT covered under BSA insurance. This whole question should never have occured. This mother should have simply been told - sorry it can't be done this year. Tigers are 7 years old or in 1st grade. This boy is neither so registration CAN NOT be accepted, come back next year. I don't care how nice the lady is. I know a very nice couple who have a 1 year old son, that doesn't mean I would sign the boy up as a Tiger! I also do not understand why your council is getting involved in this. Your Council CAN NOT force your Pack to accept this boy as a member! They have no say so in it at all, other than to tell you they can't accept registration from a 6 year old kindergartener. Your Charter Organization OWNS your Pack and with ownership comes the right to pick and choose their membership. If your Charter Organization Rep and the head of your Charter Organization both say NO the answer stays NO. Your council has no basis for calling any kind of arbitration meeting. I think the only meeting that needs to be called is a training meeting for both Council and Unit.

Ang - As I said before, have your sister contact the Pack Treasurer and get a copy of their financials. If they are selling popcorn on top of this fee then she needs to see just what is what. Maybe a good idea would be to go to the next Committee meeting! Sorry Foto, I do not like forced participation and do not see the need for it under any circumstances. Yes we have planned for 40 and got 10 at activites, but when you know there is a chance of only getting 10 you can plan for 40, but not commit for 40. If we need to put money down in advance we tell families that they have until such and such date to get us their money. No money then they are not included in the reservation. When we have to purchase a block of tickets in order to qualify for the lowest price we figure how many went last time & how many we will be willing to eat and order accordingly. It can be done. My Pack pays for everything thru the popcorn sale (Kernal here too!) and does not charge any Pack dues at all. Knowing that is possible, I would have a real problem paying a Pack that much without finding out what is what.

IF the $135 was a PACK fee which paid Nat'l reg, insurance, recharter, patches and awards along with the other stuff I could ALMOST understand it. However, that is NOT what it sounds like. Also, mandatory pre-paying for outside activites like a hayride and hockey game is nuts. Why force your families to either attend an activity or pay even though you know you can't go? We have done both events and neither required reservations that far ahead that we did not have time to ask who wanted to go. I can see the Pack requiring pre-payment of entry fees to reserve a spot, but only from those who want to go, and not months and months in advance. .

It is very frustrating for the girls. You would think that an automatic return "thank you" e-mail would be easy enough. Kwality & Beetlemom - Have your girls resend their e-mails directly to Eileen Doyle. At least they will have got them to the right person instead of having the e-mails floating around the S2B e-mailbag for who knows how long! . (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

Here is the GSUSA contact info. Eileen Doyle (bottom) is the person who is currently working on Studio 2B and the re-write of the IP book. She might be the best person to address the e-mail or snail mail to, with perhaps cc's to the others. National does not have a good track record of replying to messages, but at least the girls get the satisfaction of knowing that they did contribute some of the feedback that National keeps telling us it wants. Kathy Cloninger Chief Executive Officer 420 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10018-2798 kcloninger@girlscouts.org Phone: 212-852-5000 Fax: 212-852-6517 Harriet Mosatche Senior Director, Research & Program Group 420 5th Avenue New York, NY 10018 Hmosatche@girlscouts.org Phone: 212-852-5723 Fax: 212-852-6515 Eileen Doyle Manager, Youth Development 420 5th Avenue New York, NY 10018-2798 Edoyle@girlscouts.org Phone: 212-852-5733 Fax: 212-852-6515 .

SMA - I too feel that $135 is rather high. Especially when it look like a specialized fee (den?) rather than an overall Pack Dues type of fee. What I would do is talk to the Pack's Committee Chairman and it's Treasurer. Get a breakout of what exactly this fee covers and the cost of each item. Then get a copy of the Pack's financial report for last year and this year. All of this information should be available to all families. With this info she should be able to see exactly where the Packs money is going and what they do and don't pay for. If this fee does only cover special events and den dues then your sister should talk to the CC about paying for only what they plan on attending. If the Pack insists on her paying for events they do not plan on attending and will not allow any rebates for missed outings or offer any type of installment/fundraising plan, then your sister has a decision to make. She can either stay there and pay for stuff her son is not using or find a different Pack which might not have his friends, but is better run and ultimately give her son a better program. .

There is no "proven" way to get scouts back once they decide that they would rather be doing something else. What you need to do is work with the boys from day 1 to provide a fun scouting experience. You also need to be flexible. I have 2 Tigers who are having problems attending Den meetings just now. Because I talk to the parents, I know that both problems are temporary and that they should both be free in a few weeks. I include both in all of my calls and notes to the Tigers. The things that they can attend they do. Meanwhile the boys are working at home with their parents on the activites. This way they are still moving ahead and if they end up repeating some things that's fine. Before the boys disappear completely, the Den Leaders should contact the parents to see what is going on. It could just be something temporary, but if no one works with the families and everyone just assumes the boys are gone they probably will be. .