ScoutNut

Dens should not fundraise. If you spend more than $10 per week on supplies than you need to take a look at what you are doing and how you are spending your money. For craft type activites, use recyled materials, what some uninformed types might call trash! Ask your families to see what they have around their house and their work that they might be able to donate to the den. Start a "Den Box" with all supplies collected. Try to keep your activites free. Many forest preserves, nature centers, etc, will do programs for scouts for free. If you are going to do things like rent a gym, get the rest of the Pack involved then the cost per boy goes WAY down! Don't buy wood. Ask your parents to bring scrap they have laying around. The boys can ask neighbors and relatives too! Make den doodles out of downed tree branches. Use natural things to decorate and in place of purchased beads. We managed to do lots of fun den activites on Den dues of $10 per boy, per year (approx $100). You have to be thrifty and use your resources wisely (both pack & community)! The money raised by popcorn sales, in most Packs, stays at the Pack level. You would be suprised at how much awards & recognitions can cost for even a small Pack. You might ask at your next Committee meeting if there is any money in the budget that could go to the dens for supplies. You never know until you ask. But remember, that unless the Pack made a large profit on popcorn, the amount available to the dens might be very small. Also, unless it was budgeted for, any money that goes to the dens will have to come out of somewhere else!

I like the idea of having the parents update the achievement spreadsheet. That's a LOT easier(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

"You should have seen their faces when I asked how much popcorn the CO purchased. Complete shock." I must have missed something. Why would the CO purchase any popcorn? We have been chartered by the same CO for over 50 years and as far as I know they have never purchased any popcorn from either the Pack or Troop. I would not expect them to. One of the guiding principles handed down from Lord Baden-Powell, is that boys earn their own way in Scouting. In both our Pack and Troop it is up to the boys (with help from their families in the Pack) to sell the popcorn.

I believe that would fall under the camping guidelines as a Cub Scout Overnight. As such it can not be done by only your Den. Den overnights are not allowed until you are a Webelos. If you open it up to the whole Pack and have the BALOO trained person help organize it, then it would be fine.

"But if we are cutting corners and developing a bad habit or policy just to skip steps, the scout looses because that is not the real world." Who said anything about "cutting corners" or "skipping steps"? We are talking about withholding an earned award from a scout. That is against BSA policy. It seems we will just have to agree to disagree.

"If the book is not signed, has the pin been earned?" In the case of a Webelos who attended the den meetings when they earned the pin - YES! Weather he had his book with him or not, he was there, he did the work, he earned the pin. Both the boy and the leader knows he earned the pin. According to BSA the award should be given to the boy at the next available opportunity. To withhold the pin until the leader can sign the boy's book is wrong IMO and adding a requirement. For a Tiger's Family Achievements, of course you can not give out beads if you don't know they have been earned. As I said above, I had a boy who did not earn his rank because his family did not do the Family Achievements with him. However, I know what we do each week at our Den meetings. I also know who was at each Den meeting. Weather or not I have had an opportunity to sign their books off, the boys still get the awards for the things that I know they have done. When I do get their books I update all of the areas that I know they have finished and add to my records anything new they have had signed off. We also use a Den flag/totem so the boys have a more visual way to see where they are. I really dislike those paper sheets from BSA that you color in. The boys like the beads hanging from their paw print on the den flag much better!

I can't say that I agree with not giving the boys awards or rank that they have earned (and that the den leader knows they have earned) just because they have not brought their book to every den meeting. For Tiger thru Bear, yes, without the book you can not give them awards they have earned at home that you do not know about. You can however give them their beads for achievements that they have done in den meetings and any activity patches they have earned with the den. The beads can be given either at the end of the den meeting (preferred for instant recogniion) or at the next Pack meeting (a tradition in some units). It is up to the den leader to keep records on his/her end of the achievements and electives that they know have been completed. The boy's books can be updated with den accomplishments if/when he brings it to a meeting. I try to keep reminding my boys and families on things that they need to be doing. I always collect their books (with advance notice) 2 weeks before the Pack meeting so I can take them home and go thru them. As the year goes on, reminders go home that in order to earn rank the boys need to do, and have signed off in book, achievements # X, # Y, and # Z. I had one poor fellow last year who did not earn his rank because some achievements never got done at home. I explained everything to his parents and they understood. He is still in scouts and happily working on his next rank. For Webelos, the den leader keeping good records is even more important because most of the boys activites are done with the den. I really could not go along with withholding Webelos Activity pins that have been earned. That is against BSA policy for Cubs, Webelos or Boy Scouts. The Webelos' book, like the Boy Scout's handbook, is not and should not be the only record of their progress. It should be used mainly as a record for the Scout so he knows where he is, NOT as a record for the Den Leader or Scoutmaster. The Webelos Den Leader or Troop Advancement person should be keeping their own records of what has been earned by the Scout. Rank should NEVER be withheld, at any level, after it has been earned. The den leaders should also not be using the boy's handbooks like school textbooks. Yes, there is a lot of information in them, but there are other, much more fun ways, of getting the ideas across to the boys than simply reading about it in their handbooks! If they are using the handbook for a reference, and some boys do not have theirs, they can always share. After all, they do promise "To help other people"!

BSAT17 - It's great that you not only recognize that the scout has a problem, and that you are willing to work with him so he can get the most out of the program. Unfortunately there is no one thing that will work. What might help is when he is unfocused to have one of the older scouts work with him to help keep him on track. When he is unfocused he will work better in smaller groups without a lot of distractions. Hands on stuff will also help hold his attention better than book study. Make sure that he has notes on what he needs to do/bring for the next meeting. If at all possible give the notes to his parents and not to him. Keep in mind that, since ADD/HD runs in families, it is more than likely that one or both of his parents are ADD/HD also, so remind scout & parents of deadlines often! Bottom line, make sure this Scout (& all the Scouts in the Troop) are having fun while they learn! Ranks will come eventually - or not. Remember that making rank is not the purpose of scouting. It is only ONE of the ways that are used to achieve that purpose.

Is the camp your Troop is planning on attending a BSA camp? If so, I really don't see how they could say no co-ed Venturing Crews! Anyway, if you want high adventure in the midwest, you can't really get any better than Northern Tier Nat'l High Adventure Base in Ely, MN. Another one I found is MN's Indianhead council's Lake Superior High Adventure Base. They have sea kayaking and rock climbing in the Apostle Islands. I guess it all depends on what you want to do. There are also lots of State and National parks in the midwest that have wonderful facilites. You could stay at a nearby BSA camp and go out from there.

Please pardon my burping !!! It usually only does this at work!

The Pack I work with does not have a problem with retaining Tigers. All of the dens (Tigers included) usually have at least 85% of their boys continue on the next year. Yes, we do get new boys starting in each level of Cub Scouts, but never more than have returned from the previous year. At every level, the majority of the boys, started with Cub Scouts as a Tiger. 0(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

And, in this case, incorrect. I am sure that there are many units out there which are having problems with recruitment and/or retention. Most of these problems, I would guess, would be in all levels and not just with the Tigers. There are also many units out there which are doing just fine. (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

BTW - While I realize that you are not a big fan of the Tiger program, making statements like : "The Tiger Cub Program is the most success non issue program in the history of the Scouts. AND the turn over rate is at 99.9999%" without including any specific written reference for where you got your facts and figures, is particularly inflamatory. 0(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

Yes, you definately are reading way to much into this. Last minute meeting changes are a way of life. Leaders & parents work, kids have other obligations, emergancies happen. I have no idea why they made a "short notice" meeting change, but I would assume the den leaders had a good reason. You can either make the new meeting, or not. This should not be a large issue. Your Go-See-It response was far over the top. The Space Place site does indeed have an area for Tiger Cubs. However, like the sections for the other Cub levels, it simply refers you to areas in Space Place that might be used to fulfill achievements and electives. It does not guarantee that the activites are all age appropriate for the youth you have. You were asked for Go-See-It ideas. The Tiger section specificaly stated a visit to a zoo or aquarium as an activity for the elective Fun At The Zoo. These are both great ideas for a Tiger Go-See- it. However, the link on the page takes you to a list of various different Space Place Partners in your state. The Go-See-It you seem to have recommended (you did not specify, but the reply you received did) is the Starbase Minnesota Youth Program. I must say, since the Starbase website states that it's "primary targeted audience is students, grades, 4, 6, 8", I agree completly with your TDL's assesment that the Tigers are too young for this outing. You were insulted by the request that you send your suggestions to only the leaders and not the whole den. I believe "insulted" is an over reaction. I understand that you feel that for Shared Leadership the suggestions should go to everyone. I also understand that as the den leaders, they are trying to be the coordinators for the den. They asked for suggestions, not an on-line discussion between everyone. It sounded like they might have had some responses from other Tiger families who thought this was going to be the Go-See-It. They did not say they did not want any suggestions from you. They did not say that they were going to be the ones making all of the decisions without input from anyone else. Did you stop to consider that perhaps they were collecting the ideas which they then planned on discussing with the whole den at tonite's meeting? That is shared leadership too. As far as the other 2 times you felt yourself insulted, I think you over reacted there also. There are a lot of skits out there that really are a bit to mature for Tigers. There are also a lot of skits out there that take a rather questionable view all together. I really doubt that the leaders nixed the skit simply because you were the one to propose it. When I look for skits for my Tigers I always have to weed thru a ton of inappropriate stuff to find things that 1)don't make fun of people 2)have no reading and are very easy to remember and 3)do not include any kind of hitting. Maybe the leaders decided that no skit was better than a bad skit. Last, being interrupted is rather rude and can be agrivating, but I doubt it was ment as a personal insult to you. Pack meetings can be rather hectic. There have been many, many Pack meetings when I was interrupted while tring to talk to a parent or a scout. There have been times when I have had to cut short conversations because I was needed elsewhere. Heck, there have even been times when I have done the interrupting. I remember once getting the Asst Cubmaster to state he had some announcements to make just so I could break into the Announcements Song at the top of my lungs! You are to be applauded for both volunteering and getting trained, but it seems you are determined to burn your bridges with this Pack. Unless you are ready to eat some crow, and have a NICE talk with the Tiger Den Leaders, it sounds like you need to find a Pack better suited to you and your son. Also, you need to take a deep breath, chill out, and remember that you always wait at least 1 hour before you send a letter written in anger.

The orange shirts (t-shirt & sweat) are still considered to be the official uniform for Tiger Adult Partners. If, for whatever reason, your Scout Shop does not carry them, you can purchase them from other council's Scout Shops or order them from National. Out of my 6 current Tigers, 4 of the Adult Partners wear the orange Tiger t-shirt to every Tiger Den meeting and Pack meeting or outing. Our Tigers usually have at least 50% of their Partners wearing the orange adult shirts. I have noticed at District activites that other units also have some Tiger Partners wearing orange shirts. I am all for wearing the BSA uniform. However, I believe that the appropriate uniform should be worn for the appropriate activity. I wear my Leader uniform to all Tiger Den meetings, Pack meetings, Pack outings, trainings and District activites. Last year I had a Tiger whose dad is a Webelos Den Leader and one whose dad is Cubmaster. At Tiger Den meetings and Tiger outings they both wore their orange Tiger Adult Partner t-shirts. They were at the activites in the capacity of Tiger Partner and not Webelos Leader or Cubmaster and so wore the appropriate uniform. At Pack meetings they wore their Webelos Leader and Cubmaster uniforms because that is the capacity in which they served for that activity. I wear my Cub Scout Leader uniform whenever I attend an Eagle Scout ceremony with the Pack because I am there as a Cub Scout Leader. Neither my husband or myself wear our Cub Scout uniforms when we attend a Court of Honor at our son's BS Troop meeting. We are there strictly as parents, not as Cub Scout leaders. If I was a ASM with his Troop I would wear my Boy Scout Leader uniform, not my Cub Scout Leader uniform, to COA's. Likewise, I would not wear my Boy Scout Leader uniform to a Cub Scout Pack meeting. This is not written in a BSA publication, just the way that I interpret wearing the BSA uniform correctly.

"Are you suggesting the Adult Partners wear the Orange Shirts?" Of course! Hats too if they like! "And as a CMA am I not suppose to wear my Leader uniform?" Not to your son's Tiger den meeting. You are there as an Adult Partner only, not as Asst Cubmaster. You wear your regular BSA uniform to the Pack meetings because there your main role is that of Asst. Cubmaster.

Since religious awards are not BSA awards, councils have never requested proof for purchase of the knot. They also do not keep records on who has earned which religious emblem. The only place that you might be able to find a record is with the religious organization you earned it from. I know that for the Catholic awards, in the Chicago Archdiocese, the CYO keeps the sheets that have been signed by the parish representative. You can get replacement medals by giving them the youth's name and approx date earned and they will check their records to verify. I don't know how long they hold on to these records, but I did request a replacement award that was earned 8 years before for one of my 12th grade Senior Girl Scouts.

Several of my Tigers opted for knives as a popcorn prize this year. I made sure to let them know that they are not allowed to carry them until they earn their Whittlin' Card. One of the dads piped up and said that Whittlin' Card or no, he first had to earn the Mom Approval Card and that was not going to happen for quite a while!

Please do NOT compare GSUSA and BSA. They are simply 2 VERY different programs. They are NOT comparable. Daisy Girl Scouts do not have Adult Partners because that is the way their program is. GSUSA does NOT involve the family in the same way that BSA does. Parents are not EXPECTED to work with their child on achievements and are not allowed to sign off on their completion. Parents are encouraged to volunteer to help out with different activites. However their activites are strictly at the troop (or above) level. As I said, 2 VERY different programs! Cub Scouts is a VERY family oriented program. Not just Tigers, but all levels of Cub Scouting. Family Understanding is one of the 10 purposes of Cub Scouting. BSA uses the Tiger TEAM of adult (any caring adult 18+ not just "mom time") and boy, along with shared leadership in the Tiger den, to help Tiger families understand Cub Scouting and also strenthen family ties. As a BSA leader you are not expected to host "parties". You are also not expected to develop your own program. The program has already been developed for you. It is a year round, family & home centered program, which does encompass the parents. It is a program that, done correctly, does keep boys interested and having fun at the same time. Fun & Adventure, another purpose of Cub Scouting. As a BSA leader you are simply expected to follow the program. BTW - you should be having fun too!

You said you have a son in Tigers. For the meetings you have signed up to run, open with the PoA. I doubt you will have much luck getting the Cubmaster, Committee, and Charter Organization to force a den leader to use one particular type of opening in their den meetings. However, if you want to try, the place to start is at your Committee meeting. That is also the place to discuss leaders wearing the uniform. Meanwhile, you can make sure you wear your uniform to den (orange Tiger shirt) and Pack (reg BSA Cub uniform as asst CM) meetings. You can encourage other Tiger Partners to wear their uniform to den meetings and also to use the PoA when they do the meetings. This might get the den leader to do the same himself.

Well, actually, the Cub Scout program does not require it. Opening and closing ceremonies and uniforms are not required in the BSA. They are certainly a good idea, but not required. Opening ceremonies also do not have to be only the Pledge. There are lots of different ones out there. Repetition of the Promise, Law, and Motto (Tiger & Cub), with the Scout Handshake and Sign thrown in is a great way to do both openings and closings. Lots of different variations you can use. As Cubmaster you could purchase a copy of the Cub Program Helps for the Tiger Den Leaders. Ask them to copy the Tiger pages for the rest of the Tiger families to use as a reference for when they do their meetings. Also - Your CO could require, as a pre-req for leadership, that adult volunteers be fully trained. That might help a lot.

As I said in my response above, I have been the Tiger Den Leader in the Pack for 6 years now. I started when my son was in 5th grade Webelos. I was his Asst Webelos Den Leader and decided that we needed someone in Tigers who had a clue what the program and the Pack were all about, so I took on Tigers as well. It has worked well for us. By the time March or April rolls around, with a new batch of trainings coming up from council, I have usually picked out which parents would make good Den Leaders for the following year. I have never been turned down. Our leaders stay with their Dens from Wolfs thru Webelos. It is a learning process. As the boys grow and develop, so do their leaders. My private goal (which may end up as a Woodbadge ticket if I can scrape together the cost!) is to get every leader in the Pack trained and to get them to act as silly as possible! It sure would have been nice at last night's Pack meeting, to have a bunch of pretend knights riding invisible horses to demonstrate the theme for this year's District Day Camp. Instead there was only one, & I forgot my coconuts!!

Definately sounds like the Pack is having some start up pains. These leaders all need to be trained ASAP. Like every other rank in Cub Scouts (not Webelos Scouts), most of the requirements for Bobcat are supposed to be done at home with the family. They can and should be reinforced in the den, but most of the actual work should be done at home. You do not put every other activity on hold until rank has been achieved. (This is where training for the den leaders would help) It sounds like your Pack is one of those that meet all together all of the time. I have never been a big fan of this, although I realize that it works well for some units. The Pack might need to re-think how they handle these meetings. You said that they had been getting complaints other than yours, so it does not sound like the meetings, the way they are now, are working well. You said that the Committee Chair was in charge of the meetings. This tells me that although they might have some leaders, they do not have enough to fill all positions. The person who should be in charge of PACK meetings is the Cubmaster. The person who should be in charge of DEN meetings is the Den Leader. The person who coordinates (monthly) Pack LEADERS meetings is the Committee Chair. The person who should be in charge of FUNDRAISING is either the Treasurer or the Fundraiser Chair. 2 things that have already been mentioned - 1) Cub Scouts is NOT Boy Scouts. They are run VERY differently. Cubs are NOT boy led. Please, do not confuse your son by comparing a Cub Scout Den to a Boy Scout Troop. The only Cub leadership positions in a Den are Denner and Asst Denner. Their use is entirely up to the Den Leader. 2) Since the school requires parents to attend all Scout meetings, why not chip in and help while you are there. Bring a bag of balloons with to every meeting. Easy, cheap, no brainer way to have instant games of all kinds for the boys. Your choice is basically do you want to go to the trouble of helping this Pack get off the ground. It could be a rocky time and require some time and effort on your part. Or do you want to find an already established, up and running Pack that is not in need of as much help. There is no right or wrong choice, simply what works for your family. It sounds like you have already made that decision.

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)