ScoutNut

Dug - Here's another scenario for you : Boys vote for the Patrol Leaders they hope will pick them to be in their Patrol. Sound familiar? One boy is small, shy, geeky & not very popular. He has tried to do everything he should. He has done whatever the "popular" Patrol Leader types ask him to do. He votes for who they tell him to. Still, he is the very LAST boy to be picked to be on a Patrol, any Patrol. Now after months, & months of trying to please these boys. Of redoing requirements time & time again because these same boys are the ones who have the power to sign off on them & nothing he ever does is good enough for them. Now, finally, he has made it to a BOR. Who does he find facing him on this BOR, Dug? Impartial members of the committee, chartering org or community? Nope. He finds himself facing these very same boys who made him do all of the Troops scut work in the vain hope of getting picked for a Patrol. The very same boys who made it almost impossible for him to get anywhere near rank. How do you think this boy feels Dug? Do you think he will say a SINGLE word to these boys, or anyone else for that matter, that goes against party lines? Of course not. To do so would mean that he would trash ANY hope he had of ever fitting in, even the tiniest little bit. Besides, they promised him that THIS time, This time, if he got the newly crossed over Webelos to vote for them for Patrol Leaders, they would not give him a hard time & would finally pass him on his BOR. Does this sound like Scouting as Baden-Powell envisioned it? This is your "better" way to run a Troop? On another forum you stated that as a youth in this Troop, you had been a Patrol Leader for 3 years, re-elected 6 times, picking the same Assistant and the same "core" of 2-3 scouts each time. 3 YEARS Dug. Explain to me how having the same 4-5 boys in a position of power for 3 YEARS teaches leadership to the other boys. Explain to me how having these same 4-5 boys in charge of signing off on rank requirements builds character. Explain to me how having these same 4-5 boys running BOR's is helping other boys gain "experience". You say your Council does not "disapprove" of your methods. Interesting wording. I say it is more likely that they do not approve, but because your CO goes along with it & because no one, for whatever reason, has complained to loudly, they turn a blind eye. Dug, considering how your Troop is being run, I would say that your Committee is right and has every reason to be concerned that this Troop had, or has the potential to, turn into "Lord of the Flies".

Dug - Other than say that a BOR is simply busy work and you guys do it better than BSA, you have yet to tell us what EXACTLY goes on at your boy run BOR's. If you disagree with the BSA's purpose of a BOR than what the heck is the point of your BOR's? What are the boys doing on your BOR's? What questions are they asking? What is expected of the scouts who are standing for the BOR's? According to BSA, the purpose of every BOR from Scout to Eagle is the SAME. Why is that purpose, according to you & your Troop, busy work for some ranks & not for others? Please elaborate.

I agree with Torveaux. When we do Pack camping we encourage the families to all come. We have flag ceremonies, structured activites at certain times, free times, meal times, etc. We also try to be very flexable so that as many of our scouts & their families can attend as possible. We are trying to get the boys & their families interested in the outdoors. To help them discover a love of camping and nature. Or, at the very least, to help them learn to tolerate it! A Pack has boys from 1st grade thru 5th grade. Hopefully, as they get older, the boys (& their families) become better campers & have more respect for nature. That is the point of separate camping training for Webelos Leaders and the ability of Webelos to camp as a Den. However, most of our newer families have done little or no camping at all and some are frankly very nervous about the whole idea. In order to try to include as many as possible we pick Youth campgrounds that include cabins as well as an area for tents. We usually camp for 2 nights with Friday being for the organizers, the more seasoned campers & those that can't stay Sat night. We also camp close enough to home that families can come for the Saturday events, but not stay the night. The places we camp do not have multiple cooking & fire facilites & many families do not have a lot in the way of camping gear. So we do everything as a group. We assign kaper patrols (all family members are included) for different duties to organize everything & stick to mostly simple menus. Having everyone camp in different areas with their Dens. Do all of their cooking & cleaning with only their Dens. And only have all of the Dens come together as a Pack for certain activites, sounds too much like Den Camping to me. What do you do when a family has boys in 2 or more Dens? I have one family with 4 boys. If Mom & Dad each take one that leaves 2 boys who would have to bunk in someone ele's tent. Not to mention having to purchase multiple tents for everyone. Not a good idea. BTW - the BALOO training I took encouraged the camp together as a group way of doing things.

As was already said, the Program Helps are just that "helps". If leaders want to use them verbatium fine. If they want to pick & choose, fine. If the Pack wants to use them for Pack meetings, etc, fine. They are there to help out the leaders, especially the new leaders who are scared to death of planning a meeting. My Pack does not always use the monthly theme. Sometimes we do, but if we decide that it does not sound interesting or we have other things in mind we go our own way. I personally use the PH's as a resource. If I am stuck for something in a Den meeting, I will find a game or activity I like that fits what we are doing & use it. It does not even have to be strictly in the Tiger section. Games are games. I also give the PH's to my Tiger Partners to help them plan their meetings. I also use a LOT of ideas I find on the web. I definately would not make the use of Program Helps mandatory.

LOL - Kittle, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you ARE your Pack's Advancement Person! See, you just keep adding those hats & don't even realize it! LOL!

Look thru the Cub Scout Leader Book, I think they stress immediate recognition at least every other page. OK, maybe not quite that much, but it is in there. Look under advancement, highlight the paragraphs and show it to the CM. For rank you don't need the pocket certificates. If your CM is unhelpful, either skip them, give them unsigned, or print his name. The only thing you need is for your advancement person to fill out the Pack Advancement form. Talk to the other Den Leaders & see if they would like to do a multi-rank ceremony with you. There are lots of nice ones out there that do not take up a lot of time.

"infantilization" Wooo Boy! This from your vast experience of many, many years dealing with children of all sexes, races, & creeds? Hey Scouts out there! - I know we have quite a few youth members in this forum. Do you feel like the world in general, or your family and/or Troop in particular, is growing more & more condescending to you & treats you like you are an infant? Lets hear from you!

Good for you!! Let us know how it goes.

I agree with Torveaux, invite the whole Pack. At your Pack's next Committee meeting talk to them about making Cubs be a full year program. If you get no takers then prepare a shedule of your Den's outings/activites from the "end" of the Pack year until your Pack "official" start-up. Pass them out at the next 2 Pack meeting's (March & April) & invite everyone to join you. Have FUN! BTW - The purpose of the Blue & Gold is not as the date when everyone gets their rank badge. The Blue & Gold is a birthday party. That is why it is held in February. To celebrate the day that the Boy Scouts of America was incorporated, February 8, 1910. If your birthday was in February would you celebrate it in May instead? I don't think so. The rank ceremonies started to be held in February at the Blue & Gold because most boys have finished their requirements by then & it was convienient that all of the families were together anyway. However, the main thing that we are celebrating at a Blue & Gold is the birthday of Scouting. Rank celebrations & ceremonies can & should be held WHENEVER NEEDED. You can have a rank ceremony every month if you have even 1 boy who has finished his requirements. That is why rank ceremonies are included in each month's Program Helps.

The issue of "No Women Allowed" has been trashed back & forth many, many, many times, both here and elsewhere. Bottom line is that you usually can't change someones stance either way. This SM will NOT change. The more important issue in your post is the way the SM runs the Troop. What should have been a fun boy run campout was turned into a vindictive one-upmanship fest by this man. That is about as bad as you can get. Talk to some of the other parents & see what they think of the situation. If there is enough adults who want this man to stop being a demi-god then you might stay and see what you can do. If noone seems to care then I would cut my losses & look for a troop that delivers a good BSA program. Either way you should also talk to your son & explain to him why you are unhappy with this troop.

"I don't think the convenience factor is relevant to the mission and aims of Scouting." Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? My son became a Den Chief because he wanted to help me with my Tigers. After helping run gathering & games for their Tiger year he moved on with "his" Den as their Den Chief. They crossed over to Boy Scouts at B&G this year. He still helps me with the Tigers gathering & games when he can. Just because something is convienient does not make it against the mission & aims of Scouting. My son had opportunities to work with many different Scouts (Cub & Boy), Leaders & District staff because of me. His SM does not want to help at any District activity & so never tells the boys of these opportunites. My guy goes, works his back end off, has a ball & gets transportation there & back because I'm there too. There is nothing wrong with the "convenience factor" helping boys to find opportunites to learn & grow.

Turning into the Den's maid is possible no matter if the Den Chief is related to the Den Leader or not. If the Leader does not know how, or care to, utilize a Den Chief properly then the boy will not be able to develop his position as fully as he should. Unfortunatly this does happens. How do you plan on monitoring the Den Chief if he is working with a Leader he is not related to? However you plan on doing it, it should work the same whoever the leader is.

A temporary patch is ANY patch that does not stay on the shirt permanently (rank, arrows, knot, world crest, etc).

A Cub or Webelos Scout has to earn the Whittling Chip before they can use a pocket knife at a BSA activity. All levels of Cub Scouts (Tiger, Wolf, Bear) are eligible. Boy Scouts have to earn the Totin' Chip before they can use any woods tools (including a pocketknife). Rappelling is recomended only for Boy Scout age scouts. Boy Scout age is also recomended to do belaying & rock climbing. To do caving, lead climbing & snow/ice climbing it is recomended they be an older Boy Scout, a Varsity Scout or a Venturer. All levels of Cub Scouts can do bouldering & commercial or hoizontal wall climbing. It is recomended that a boy be Webelos age to do vertical wall or tower climbing. You will find this information (with the exception of the names of the cards) in Age-Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activites: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf

Have each Tiger Team bring in a snack of their ethnic foods. (Elective 25) Have them share any pictures/stories they might have of trips to other countries. Have each Tiger Team reasearch an international game or song and then teach it to the rest. (Electives 35 & 6) Have each Tiger Team discover things about an animal from a different country & share it with the rest of the Den. (Elective 31) Make puppets & put on a puppet show about a different country. Or even Scouting in a different country. (Elective 21)

Here is the program. It will run in a DOS window. You enter the # of lanes, # of boys & time limit. The print option does not work, but if you save the file to your desktop you can print it from there. http://www.wtrfrd.com/pack339/pinewood.exe

USSCOUTS and ALL of their sites that is!! http://www.usscouts.org/

Our Pack gives the boys their handbook & red shoulder tabs. I usually make them a necker slide. Other thoughts -walking sticks, sleeping bag pads, BS hat, merit badge book, fleece blanket for use with sleeping bag with a BS patch sewn on (maybe council's patch in center), a patch collector's book with maybe a patch from one of your council's camps to start them off. It all depends on how many boys you have & how much money you want to spend.

Being a vegetarian is not exactly rare or radical. For campouts it might take some thinking on the part of his Cub leaders & BS Patrol members, but it is doable. I had a girl in my GS Troop who was a "veggie". The girls picked meals that could be "customized" by each person. You are always going to have to take people's dietary & medical issues into consideration when cooking for any group. Just because you don't eat meat or are alergic to something does not mean you would have problems being a Scout. I also don't see how the patrol method whould bother a pacifist. It's not like the boys go out in groups to hunt. It is a way for the boys to learn to work together. Does the family/boy have a problem with authority? Are they at odds with the Bear Den Leader? Are you afraid the parents will not be willing to let go of their son & allow him to do things on his own? I'm not sure what you consider a problem here.

As I posted earlier, no one, even you, has the right to add to ANY BSA requirements. It does not matter if you feel that the boy is to young for Eagle, what matters is if all of the requirements for Eagle have been properaly signed off . If they have, & if his project has been approved, then there is NO WAY to hold him back. And you should NOT want to! Most districts now have Eagle advisors to help the boys thru the application process & the BOR's are staffed by district personal. This takes the whole thing out of the "Good 'Ole Boy" local politics & into a more fair arena. I don't know what council you are with, but unless those neighbors, best friends, teachers, band directors, & family are District Scouters & not related to the Scout or part of his Troop then they would NOT be a part of his Eagle BOR in my council.

Most of your answers are in the Boy Scout Handbook. Remember, no one is allowed to add to any BSA requirements. Here is link to Boy Scout Fast Start, it might be helpful: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/faststart/

We went from a "Pow Wow" for Cub Scouts only to a "Super Saturday of Scouting" for Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, & Venturing alike. Lots more choices. Unfortunatly, it never fails that the 2 classes I really want to take are always at the same time!

I would, gently, request that they find someone to keep track of the parish calendar & to let people know well in advance (4 days is unacceptable) if there is a needed change. I would also remind them that many adults & many boys had been working on this particular meeting for many months & due to the last minute snafoo on their part it was all for nothing. Let them know that they have a lot of very dissapointed little boys in THEIR Pack. I don't care how much they do, this was really, really bad form. At the very least the COR should have offered to help find you an alternate site.

Don't forget - Pack camping is family camping. Make sure to include the parents and siblings in all activites.

Is there somewhere besides the room where the scouts are meeting that the sibs can go? If your parents are all staying can on or two of them act as sitters for the sibs? If there is no other room can the sibs at least be at another table doing their own things? Yes, Cub Scouts is a family program, but that does not mean that all of the children in the family get to participate in all scouting activites regardless of their age. Each level of the The Cub Scout program (Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelos) is age appropriate. The activites are taylored for boys with the attention span, dexterity, & knowledge of that particular age level. Cub Scout Den meetings are not Familiy meetings. If there has to be sibs present then they should be supervised by someone OTHER than the Den Leaders & they should be separate from the Scouts. If it is the same families all of the time, have them alternate the supervisor job. They can also provide quiet cames, coloring pages, puzzles, etc, when it is their turn. Another option is to ask the local older Girl Scout Troops for some help sitting the sibs. They are usually looking for leadership or community service hours. The same goes for kids doing Confirmation service hours. If the older youth is actually a sib of the Cub that is even better! For the snacks, if they are eating I would charge the families a small snack dues to cover the cost. Actually, if the Leader is providing craft supplies, snacks, and everything else to the sibs I would charge the sibs the entire cost of the Den Dues.