ScoutNut

Where is the CO in all of this? It is their Pack. Before you start the paperwork for a new Pack, you should get the Den Leaders together & have a talk with your COR. Do not attack this DL & her family, but let the COR know you are all troubled by the trend you are seeing of families leaving. Let the COR know what is going on & see what he suggests.

Somehow I doubt my council will be one of those requiring BALOO to be retaken every 2 years. They have a hard enough time getting people to sign up once. I signed up for BALOO 3 different times. The first 2 were cancled due to lack of people (only 2 signed up!).

What could you possibly be doing in April that is SO much different than what you were doing in August that some parents are threatening to pull their boys out of Scouts? That is a pretty drastic consequence. Talk to your CM & find out just what, specificly, the complaints are & where this is coming from. I would not send out a blanket letter to all Tiger families. You might want to talk to the complaining families only, face to face with your CM, but a letter to all 14 families sounds unnecessary.

Actually the membership application states that for both AOL & completion of 5th grade the boy must be at least 10 years old.

Contact your local paper & see what they require. I would not suggest putting in the scouts names. A simple - The Scouts of Pack XYZ, in ABC, celebrated ... Most papers will require some type of signed release form. Next time call your paper in advance & maybe they will be able to get someone out to your event.

"I was also under the impression that Coucil updates every Scout's file in June to reflect their progression to the next level in Scouting, which should preempt any further work towards their current rank." National's computer considers June 1 the end of the current school year & updates to the next Cub level at that point. However that does NOT mean that is a hard & fast cutoff. If you check your Cub Scout Leader Book you will see that boys are allowed extra time to finish current rank requirements, if they need it. The only requirement is that they can ONLY work on those rank requirements. They can NOT work on any requirements for their next Cub level at the same time. Boys are restricted to working in only ONE level at a time. If your Pack holds any Summer meetings the boys can be awarded their rank at that time. Or they can receive it at the first Pack meeting of the next school year. Hopefully, the families will have finished their boys up by May.

"Last year, some of these same boys were Tigers and were "given" their rank without attending meetings or doing the requirements. I had no input at that point. If the precendent has been set, how do I handle this situation this year, should it come up?" You have already let them know that May is the limit. Their Den Leader (these are boys in the other Den correct?) can mail each family a list of requirements that still need to be finished and stress again that May is it. However, you should be aware that these boys might come to their last Den meeting with every requirement for the Wolf rank signed off by their parents. This is possibly what happened last year. Since boys are supposed to be doing most of their rank work at home, and parents are considered leaders and can sign off on all of their sons work, there is not a lot you can do about this. The Den Leader pretty much has to accept it at face value & award them rank. "And, how do I handle this one... one of the boys in the other den has his Wolf rank because his father went to the Scout store and bought it for him!" First of all, it should not be you who has to handle it. His Den Leader needs to tell the boy & his family that the Scout Store made a mistake by selling the rank patch to a parent. The Den Leader needs to tell them the boy is not allowed to wear the patch until it has been earned. Then your Pack Advancement Person needs to be told what happened. This person then should talk to the Scout Shop Mgr to make sure that restricted patches are being kept restricted.

You do not have to be a member of a mainstream religion. You do not have to be a Christian. You do not even have to belong to ANY specific religion. The Declaration of Religious Principal : The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership. Do I believe in "God"? I don't know. Do I believe in "Something"? Again, for me this is a rather loaded question & a very personal issue. I believe in "Good" & "Evil", but weather these two things (entities?) should be in one religion rather than another (or any) is a whole other issue. I was raised Roman Catholic & intensly dislike the politics therein, but it is the only organized religion I know. When we had kids we decided that they needed some base. Something to start themselves off from. A beginning. So, we enrolled ourselves & them in our neighborhood Catholic Church. We also enrolled them in the Church's school. These belief's give them something to work with. You can't say you believe or don't believe in religion if you have no idea what religion is. As they get to the end of High school & beyond, they will make their own choices of what feels right to them. So, as I said, I don't know if I believe in "God" per say, but I do "recognize the religious element in the training of the member" & so had no problem with agreeing to the Declaration of Religious Principal. Religion, & the belief in religious aspects, like Scouting, is a journey. What a boy of 7 believes in is not necessarily what a young man of 17 believes in or an old man of 50 (oops!). If you REALLY can not subscribe to the religious aspect of Scouting & do not want your children to even consider it, then YES, you should seriously think about quiting BSA & moving on to an organization you really believe in.

Let's face it, if you are in charge, your are going to be tired. Heck, even after a camping trip with just my family I'm tired! But it should be a HAPPY tired, not a chicken with no head tired. As others said delegate. You need a trip committee to help with the work. You now have 3 BALOO trained leaders, get some more trained and work together. Cooking den vs pack. It depends. How many boys do you have? How many from each den? Is the pack paying for food? What kind of facilites do you have? If you have a turn out of about 40-50+ folks with a good # from each Den, a multitude of camp areas & numerous campfire/cooking areas then you could maybe look into cooking by den. However, contrary to fotoscout's view, I feel that Den (Patrol) cooking & activites should be better left to Boy Scouts. A Pack Family Campout should be done as a group. Most of the activites during the weekend should be done as a Pack (maybe split into Dens for round-robin type things). Cooking for a large group will take more planning, but it can be done. I've cooked for 100+ folks on Girl Scout School-Wide campouts. Kaper charts are the way to go! Some structure, some free time, activites for all ages, ranks & genders & you have yourself a Cub Scout Family Campout!! I've been starting to plan our Adult & Me Tent campout & then our summer Family (have cabins will camp) Campout. I'm really itching to get out there, it's been a L-O-N-G winter!! LOL!!

"Maybe this policy the Girl Scouts have is the reason my daughter and many of her friends wish they could be boy scouts!" What policy? The policy of being for "Every Girl Everywhere"? The policy of non-discrimination? Or is it the policy of accepting leaders if they pass reference & background checks? No, background checks do not catch everyone. As, I think, the BSA will be the first to admit after all of their wonderful press this week about their National Director of Program & Youth Protection! We can all only do our best. "Next year my daughter will be a Juliette (Lone Scout) because she does not like how Girl Scouts is being run." Just because she will be a Juliette does not mean she can make her own rules. A Juliette is still a Girl Scout & as such is bound by her council's rules & regulations. She will still be subject to "the way Girl Scouts is being run". She will just be doing it on her own instead of with a Troop.

The one family that did not sell is brand new this year. They actually signed up for 2 booth sales and then canceled because the dad went out of town for work. We decided to let them slide this year & to put in a Pack policy on this for next year. We still have not decided on just what the policy will be, but hey, why rush things! LOL Our CM doesn't see it as much of a problem, but I think it is the principal involved. The family can well afford to buy at least a tin for a gift if they don't like munching on corn themselves. My goal for next year (I am Popcorn Kernal BTW) is to be able to pay 100% for Day Camp for the boys who meet their goal or 50% for Summer Camp.

We don't use that particular program, but we do pay for our whole year with just the popcorn fundraiser. We give each scout a goal to reach. If they reach the goal they receive a free rocket for our Rocket Shoot. The top 10 sellers all get to throw a whipped cream "pie" (paper plate) at the Scouter of their choice during our December Pack meeting. We do a combination of Take-Order with Show & Sell. Show & Sell $ get divided up between the boys who participate & goes towards both their incentive gift & their Pack goal. Some boys do most of their popcorn thru Show & Sell booth sales. This year we had about 90% reach goal. Many more were close. There was only 1 family who did not participate at all.

Jay - This is not a problem with BSA. It has nothing to do with Scouting. It is about one man's illegal activites. He could have just as easily worked for Wal-Mart or the federal government.

To correct the first posting - the proper quote is: "According to Greg Fields, a Boy Scout of America spokesperson based in Irving, Texas, Smith is NO LONGER involved in troop activity." The BSA also stated: "We are dismayed and shocked to learn of the charge," it said. "Smith was employed by the organization for 39 years, with no indication of prior criminal activity. He was not in a leadership position which involved working directly with youth." Background checks are not infalible. If someone has managed to avoid any kind of trouble there is no way to catch him with a background check. Just another sad reminder that there are all kinds of crazies in this world & many of them are people no one would ever suspect.

There are a few things you could do. Some Packs give a certain amount of Pack money to each den for expenses. Some Packs have the den leaders turn in receipts to the Pack treasurer to be reimbursed. Some Packs leave it up to the den leaders to handle & the den leaders will charge their boys whatever den dues they feel is fair. Do you have somewhere at your meeting place that you can store supplies? If it would be asscessable to all dens maybe the Pack could purchase some supplies for everyones use. You could put together a large Rubbermaid container of supplies for your den. Have each family bring in some things for the "Supply Box". Before going out to purchase things, ask your den families first if they already have any they could donate to the den. We have a Pack supply cabinet that holds a lot of stuff. Leftover's from different den's activites are stored for everyones use. If someone gets resources from an organization (fire coloring books, leaf IDs, nutrition, etc) they try to get enough for everyone. As the supplies get used everyone pitches in to replace them. I do not charge my Tiger den dues, because with Shared Leadership each family brings the supplies for the activites they are doing. When I had my son's den I charged about $7-$10 per scout for the year depending on what we were doing. You should not be spending all of your family money on den supplies. I am sure your den families would be happy to help, you just have to let them know how.

I think that Oak Tree said it best. Why force this boy to wait 6 months or fudge requirements for an award? What is the point? It certainly will not benefit the boy. This boy is currently eligible to join a Boy Scout Troop right now, without earning the AOL. Tell him & his family that if he really wants to get back into Scouting to look for a Boy Scout Troop to join. IMO, if you do it any other way you may very well lose the boy again & this time it could be permanent.

Have you heard about the joint venture between 3 Fires & DesPlaines Valley to create a Cub Resident Camp at TFC Ranch in Rochelle? Could be interesting! Our Camp Tomo is in Gilberts up near Elgin. A nice camp, unfortunately for Spring camping, weekends in May are pretty booked with various trainings, and in June the camp starts gearing up for summer camp. April is already upon us, so we will be looking at youth group camps in the local county forest preserves for late May. But if you need alt dates for BALOO, WLOT, Woodbadge, etc, give my council a call (708-354-1111). Tomo is nearby & training can be carried from council to council! We had someone from 3F with us at BALOO last year. Again - Welcome!

"if the former CM seeks to stay with the pack have the Charter Orginazation release his charter. And End that meeting dismissing the former CM and hand him his Charter and let him have any thing from old pack he wants dont fight it." I don't think so. The charter does not belong to the former CM. The charter belongs to the Pack and the Charter Organization. The Charter Organization also owns all of the Pack's equipment, not the former CM.

Thanks for the info & clarification NWS !

Hey Kurt ! A BIG welcome to a 3 Fires guy from a DesPlaines Valley Scouter !! I believe we have a few other folks from IL on here too.

"He may get His Eagle in either the Troop or the Crew it is his choice." Yes, but can he work on it in BOTH places?

PE - I had heard this, but after checking thru the National site I did not see anything about it. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I suppose it could be looked at as a type of "Lone Scout" thing if the boy did in fact drop out of the Troop & still kept his BS registration active. Does the policy say only if the boy drops out of the Troop? Or can he have stuff signed off for BS by BOTH his Troop & Venturing leaders? It seems THAT could get to be a paperwork nightmare!

Yes, a boy can be a member of both a Troop and a Crew/Ship. Yes, if a boy is dual registered he can work on both Boy Scout ranks/awards & Venturing ranks/awards at the same time. No, he can not work on BOTH sets of ranks/awards in the SAME program. Boy Scouts & Venturing are 2 completely separate programs within BSA. All ranks and awards should be earned within their own program. Would you ask a Girl Scout Advisor to sign off on one of her scouts Venturing awards or a Venturing Advisor to approve a Girl Scout Silver Award project - of course not. So why would you think it would be any different between a Boy Scout Troop & a Venturing Crew? The only possible overlap would be if the leader is the scouts leader in BOTH programs & approves some activities (service, leadership, etc) to be used against BOTH programs requirements. I don't see a boy who has been turned down by his SM for a BS rank going to his VA (who is the same person) & expecting that person to magicaly change their mind because they are wearing the uniform of the other program. I also, don't see a boy who has been turned down by his BS SM for rank going to his VA (who is not connected with the BS Troop) and expecting this person to sign off on his BS rank. Neither makes any sense.(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

The only folks GSUSA excludes from leadership are those that fail the reference & background checks. However, National policy aside, after all checks are in, it is still up to the local council, or Service Unit, to accept or deny the leadership request. Brian - the purposes of BSA & GSUSA are very, very similar, they just go about it in different ways. Scouting is about the kids & helping them to become the best young men & women that they can be. Yes, GSUSA is against discrimination in any form. However to say that because of that fact, GSUSA promotes gay & homosexual issues, is like saying the BSA promotes white power issues. Neither is true, but there are plenty of tightly wound folks out there that think they are. I hope your daughter was not to upset that her friend's mom would not let her go. Explain it to her as clearly as you can so she will not feel like HER Brownie Troop is suddenly, somehow "bad". BTW - How does your wife feel about it?

I know considerably more than 3 Girl Scout paid professional staff, including some men, & all of them are married with children. I have also known many camp counselors over the years, & to my knowledge none of them were gay. Sleepovers & camping trips are not sex parties. At least none of the ones I have attended. I would venture to guess that there are just as many gay Boy Scouts & Boy Scout Leaders as there are Girl Scouts & Girl Scout Leaders. However, none of the Boys have written "tell-all" books on the subject. Perhaps that is because they are afraid of repercussions from BSA, I really don't know. As I said earlier - Girl Scouts is dedicated to EVERY girl, EVERYwhere, not just the politicaly correct ones. GSUSA even has outreach troops in some prisons. This does not make every Girl Scout meeting a lesbian sex romp.