ScoutNut

Last summer my son had to cancel summer camp unexpectedly. In fall, A few weeks before the event, he gets a letter from our council telling him he needs to sign up for Ordeal. He shows the letter to his SM & the SM says "Oh Yea - you were elected, you need to go if you want to be in OA." Never called-out, never told he was elected, never given advance notice (other than the letter from council) of the date of the Ordeal. As a result he was unable to go to the Fall Fellowship because he was sheduled to work, could not find anyone to fill in for him, and could not just call in sick. SM now says he needs to be re-elected. However, he has received another letter from council telling him that the Spring Fellowship is his last chance to be inducted into OA. I know that he has 1 year to do his Ordeal, and council obviously agrees. He is a bit leery about going on his own, but he signed up thru council. I believe his SM has planned a Troop camping trip for that weekend.

My council did not show the video at the BALOO training I took last spring. They also did not include a copy of the Outdoor Guidelines. They did include a copy of approved camping sites in the area. Aside from the BSA camps, the approved campsites include County Forest Preserve Youth Group camps, State Parks, National Parks, and some private camps. Lynda - What outdoor skills course are you refering to? I have never heard of 4Winds. As far as I know, there is no National outdoor skills training that goes with New Leader training for Cub Scouts. For Cubs you have BALOO (which is required) and Webelos Leader Outdoor Training (which is not required). There is the Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills, but that is for Boy Scout, not Cub Scout, leaders & I would NOT recommend that as an additional training for BALOO.

It almost sounds like your daughter is in what our Council calls a "Scouts in the School Day" program. It is one way they offer Scouting when they cannot field a tradional Troop in an area. When my girls were Brownies we met weekly right after school in the school's "Scout Room". They did a lot of different things like earning Try-Its, camping, swimming at a nearby University pool, selling cookies, lock-ins, bowling, roller skating, etc.

It doesn't matter if your CO is a church, a PTO, the neighborhood store or a bunch of parents, the job of the COR (or CR) remains the same. The CO (no matter who or what they are) owns the unit and the COR is their representative in the Troop AND in the Council. You need to stop thinking of your registered position as a job on paper only. It isn't. It is an extremely important position. Have you taken the training for CO/COR? If you haven't, you should, and then you should start doing your job. BTW - Although you can NOT dual register, many Scouters hold multiple positions in a unit. Not reccomended, but it is done. There is no BSA regulation against a husband & wife leading a den. You are the COR, you are responsible for providing leadership. Simply tell the CC & Asst CC what is going to happen. The CM (who is in charge of program not leadership BTW) is incorrect.

"In situations of this magnitude and sensitivity we, as leaders cannot advise or analyze the situation with the professionalism required. Unless you are a paid professional with extensive training, and I do not know if any of you are, you are not qualified to pass judgment on the boy, the situation, or me." And what exactly makes YOU qualified to pass judgement on this boy? Ar you a paid professional (Psychologist or Psychiatrist)? Are you even a registered leader in this boy's Troop? One on one conversations with youth are expressly forbidden as laid out in BSA Youth Protection policies. How, exactly, do you KNOW this boy is practicing Satanism? Because he tells you so? Have you ever stopped to consider that he is telling you this because you are driving him nuts trying to save his soul every time he runs into you??? In other words, he might very well be LYING to you. Not very Scout-like granted, but VERY teenager-like! I can't help but feel that you have another agenda going on here. Either you are using this boy or you are using this forum, or perhaps both.

Contact your local Conservation district, nature center or DNR office. They should be able to help.

IMHO you should leave the poor kid alone. You say he is a eagle scout & a wonderful young man who will turn 18 in a few months. Why are you attempting to get him tossed out of Scouting? What has this kid done to you? Other, of course, than not believing in your version of religion & finding "his way back to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"? You have no way to actually know what this boy is doing. You don't know him well enough to know what is really going on inside his head (except to say he is a wonderful young man who should not be in the BSA). You don't live with him (unless of course he IS your son, we can't know). You speak to him once in a while & that seems to be it. Unless you are his parent you have no idea whatever what is really going on in his life (& sometimes even parents don't have a real good grasp on what the heck is going on with their teenager or why they have suddenly turned into a wierd alien form the Twilite Zone). It is entirely possible he is telling you all of this JUST to rattle your cage, so to speak. I once had a friend who had "accepted God into his life". Unfortunatly my version of God was not good enough for either him or (to hear him tell it) his God. It made him very unhappy because I was a wonderful person & a good friend, but I was evil, in league with Satan, & going directly to hell. All of this because I did not accept HIS God into my heart, & oh yes, I listened to rock music especially the Stones & (gasp) Black Sabath. Well, I haven't bitten the heads off of any chickens lately or built altars in the woods. My religion is my business. This boy's religion is his, and his parents, business. I doubt he is going to summer camp in order to "bring Satan souls". My guess would be he is going because he wants to have some fun (and maybe finish up a palm?). Give him a break & leave him be.

I've camped in the same tent with my son & daughter. The better question is - Why in heavens name would you want to?! Seriously though, for Pack family camping we have to separate males & females, so I would think it would be the same for Council family camp.

Do you have monthly meetings where the CM & all of the Den Leaders get together & talk about the upcoming Pack meeting? At your very next Leaders meeting bring up the idea of summertime Pack events. Tell them what you are planning & let them know you are willing to open the events up to the entire Pack, but that you will need HELP! Also see if you can get 1 or 2 of the other leaders to commit to putting together another event (picnic, kite fly?). Sometimes it just takes 1 or 2 folks to stand up & push things thru!

I am sorry - This is NOT a bad boy - This is a SPECIAL NEEDS boy. Big, big difference. He does not do these things on purpose. He has a medical condition. "I notice them moving away so that they dont have to sit next to him in a den meeting or pack meeting" And you just watched & let this happen? Do you have ANY idea how that made this boy feel? Do you have any idea how bad a self-image a child with ADHD has? The amount of teasing they have to suffer with is horrible and to have it happen in a supposedly "safe" scout setting is unacceptable. Expecting this boy to be able to change & do things "normally" is unrealistic. The program for a boy with a severe case of ADHD has to be different from what is normally used. There has to be minimal "down" time & lots of active, hands on stuff. Sitting around classroom style for any length of time is asking for him to meltdown. You need to do what you should have done 2 years ago, have the mother attend every den meeting with her son. She should be his "Adult Partner" to be there to help him focus, settle him down, & if need be, to take him home. You need to sit down with her & her son & talk to them about behaviour modification techniques for him, modifications you can make to your program that would help, & how you can ALL make scouting work for this boy. If you accept special needs boys in your Pack you need to make sure you can make the modifications necessary to meet their special needs. If you cannot, then you should reccomend them to another Pack or your District's special needs Pack.

Actually most of our Scout families are pretty good, although I have run into the chronic complainer in other areas. When I was on the PTO I had one mom come up to me complaining about an activity. I asked her why she hadn't signed up to help out & her reply was that because she saw the same people working at every event she felt it was just a big clique & did not feel welcome. I assured her that the reason she saw the same people all the time was not because of any clique, but because they were the only idiots in the whole school who would volunteer. I asked her if she would care to join our clique for the next event & I never heard from her again!

It would still be way to easy to get the wrong dad & son combo in the tent alone.

Having den meetings during the summer is pretty much up to you. Scouting is a year round program, but you don't have to go full throttle all summer. Summer is What kind of summer activites does your Pack have planned? Ask about it at your next Committee meeting. You don't want to be duplicating things that your Pack is already planning. Also, find out what your council is offering for the summer. How about a Day Camp, or Summer Camp? Have any of your Tigers signed up for one of these? We don't usually have regular den meetings over the summer. We do have 1 or 2 Pack activities each month. June is a minor league baseball game & a fishing derby. July is Council Summer Camp, Pack Family Camp, & rocket shoot. Aug is District Day Camp, & Pack picnic. School starts the end of Aug & we have our Pack Round-Up. Regular Den meetings start up again after Labor Day.

If you are talking about a graduation ceremony, then yes, that means that they have completed the level and are going on to the next. The BSA trys to give Cub Scouts (at all levels, not just Tigers) every chance to succeed. To do this, they allow any Scout who is not quite finished with his rank requirements, some extra time after the end of the school year (when Scouts usually graduate into the next Scout level & school grade) to complete them. There are a few stipulations on this, however. One is that they can only work on their rank requirements, not electives. Two, is that while they are finishing up their rank requirements they can not work on anything at their new Scout level. BSA wants boys to only work in one program at a time. For Bobcat, Greg is correct. Bobcat is a bit different. Actually, you should be working on Bobcat from their 1st day as a Tiger. They learn the Cub Sign & Salute as part of earning their Tiger Totem. They can be saying the Promise as part of their Den opening every week for the first 1/2 of the year & switch to the Law for the 2nd 1/2. They can end their meeting with the Tiger Motto for 1/2 and then the Cub Motto. They can include a Cub Handshake with their Adult Partner when saying the Cub Motto. As they say "Practice Makes Perfect"! We don't usually award Bobcat until September. We give the boys until then to practice and go over the other things with their parents. Then at our September Pack meeting we do a big Bobcat ceremony with all of the Wolf Scouts & any new Bear or Webelos.

Also in the Tiger Handbook, in the Introductory Guide for Tiger Cubs and Adult Partners, the Advancement section, under Tiger Cub Badge (pages 21-22 in my edition): "The den activites and Go See It outings are intended to be completed with the den. If a Tiger Cub is unable to participate in an activity because of an illiness or a conflict, however, you may work with him to complete these requirements." The "you" in the above statement is the Adult Partner. The Tiger program is ment to be flexable so the boys have fun and are successful. This year I have one boy who has a doctors appointment at the same time as our Tiger den meeting. Should I have told him, sorry, but we can't take you? Should I have said you can sign up, but don't expect to earn much? His brother is a Bear & he has been itching to join for years (I remember him tagging along to Tiger meetings with his dad & big bro!). He comes with his dad to every meeting he can & has not missed a Pack meeting all year. I try to shedule outings when he can be there, but I have 5 other VERY active Tigers so sometimes it just doesn't work. As a result, he has had to work with his dad & family on just about all of the requirements. He is having a ball in Cub Scouts & was one of the first to finish all of his rank requirements. (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

What about the scout, his parents and his Den Leader? Those are the ones who should be working on completing the Bear rank requirements. If the boy & his parents decide to let you work with him during the summer on his Bear rank you should keep in mind 2 things - 1) All Youth Protection rules MUST be followed at each meeting. 2) He CANNOT work on any Webelos activites as long as he is still working on the Bear program.

First, the Tiger & Bobcat ranks are 2 separate things with separate rank requirements. Not finishing the requirements for the Tiger rank has nothing to do with the Bobcat rank. In order to earn a rank award the boys have to complete ALL of the requirements for that rank. They also can not work on more than 1 rank at a time. Once the boys receive their Bobcat rank they can no longer work on Tiger rank achievements or electives. Have you told these Tiger families that they can complete the den & go-see-it activites that they missed on their own? Do you (& they) know that they can take extra time to complete these missing achievements? Maybe you can do some of these missing activites again with the den. They can be done differently so the others are doing something new and not just repeating. Like visiting your fire dept if you have already visited your police dept. Visit a reinactment, a historical park, a historical society or library. Go on a bike hike instead of a foot hike. Use leaf pictures to make a Mom's Day card. Don't write off these boys receiving their Tiger rank too soon. You have at least 1.5 months until the end of the school year. The boys who already have their Tiger rank can be earning electives & having fun while the others work toward rank.

You (or the DL in question) can purchase the knot devices at your local council Scout Shop. If by some chance they do not carry them I am sure the shop folks will be happy to order them.

Contact your local quarry. Many will do a nice presentation & tour. They might even let the boys hunt for fossils.

It sounds like you have been going to the District Executive for advice. While it is true that they are in charge of the District, a DE has very little to say about how an individual Pack is run. They very seldom get involved in the day to day problems in the unit. I really do not understand why a DE would be "appointing" anyone to ANY position in a Pack. It just is not their job. It is a good thing you have a meeting with your Committee Chair coming up, but you should also get your Charter Org Rep in the meeting too (or are they the same person?). As I said, your Charter Org is the one who "owns" the Pack and it is their responsiblity (not your Council's or your District's) to appoint leaders. It might be a good idea to have your Unit Commisioner (or the District Commisioner if you do not have a UC) at the meeting also. The job of the UC is to help the unit. They are there as a Scouting Consultant, a counselor to help the unit solve any problems they might have. As Cubmaster, you are well within your rights to have a talk with this leader. You can let her know how she is out of line & what actions of hers are hurting the program. You can let her know that her Den is in trouble & that if things continue you will be forced to talk to the CC & COR about a change. However, YOU can not kick her out. You do not have the authority. One other thing you might want to talk about in your upcoming meeting with your CC & COR, is asking one (or 2) of the other parents to be Assistant Den Leaders for this person's Den. That way there will always be someone there to take up the slack if she soes not show up. This should be something you have in place in any event. This sounds like a large Den & additional leadership is needed.

I'm just a bit confused here. Who is your Scout Rep? Or, more to the point, what is your Scout Rep? Scout Rep is not a position I am familiar with. Why would a brand new Tiger Den Leader have the only set of keys to the place your Pack meets? Why would a Den Leader feel they can appoint a new Cubmaster? Why is it suddenly the Den Leaders Pack to run? Don't you hold monthly Committee/Leader meetings? If you hold monthly meetings, why can't you talk to the Committee then? If you don't hold monthly Committee/Leader meetings, why don't you? How can you get anything accomplished? Who is your Charter Organization? I thought at first it might be LDS, but they do not have a Tiger program. Do you know who your Charter Organization Rep is? Do you have a Unit Commissioner? He might be able to help. At the very least he could straighten everyone out on what their correct roles/jobs in the Pack are. A Cubmaster is in charge of a Pack's program. He can not "hire" or "fire" Leaders (neither can a Tiger Leader!). The Pack is owned by its Charter Organization (CO). Part of the responsibilties of the CO is to provide Leaders. The CO is represented by a Charter Organization Representative (COR). The COR, along with the Committee Chair (CC) are the ones who would be responsible for "hiring" & "firing" Leaders & Commitee Members. You need to talk to them.

If the cabin has a bathroom that can be used for changing you don't need to worry about hanging blankets. If the family of your "lone scout" has a tent, maybe he could bring it with for the boys to sleep in. That would give the other family a bit more room in their tent & solve the whole problem. You could also ask to borrow a tent from a Troop. Have fun!

Who and how many others are going to be in the cabin? Are there separate rooms w/bunks or 1 big room?

I would have a talk with the boy (you should include the parents) & let him know where things stand. Make sure he understands that he WILL be crossing over to Boy Scouts (has he picked a Troop?), but because of unfinished requirements, he will not be receiving his AOL. That is all you can do.

As EagleinKY mentioned, it is NOT the CM's decision to "fire" you or not. If you truly want to find out what is going on get your CC & COR together & ask them. They are the ones with the authority to "hire" & "fire" leaders, not the CM. Your CM has no right to spout generalities & gossip & then tell you you are gone. At the very least, you have the right to know what is being said about you.