ScoutNut

Seed, are you, the CC, and the rest of the Pack's leaders & committee members trained? You need to get everyone trained for their position ASAP. You also need a person trained in BALOO in order to go camping as a Pack. Do you have a good relationship with your Charter Organization & your Charter Org Rep? Have you talked to them about the situation? It is Round-Up time. Your DE is not going to have a lot of free time. Do you know who your Unit Commissioner is? Your Unit Commissioner is the one who should really be helping you. If you do not know who your UC is, call your council & get the name & contact info for your District Commissioner & give him a call.

Don't forget - From the Guide To Safe Scouting - Parade Floats and Hayrides The BSA rule prohibiting the transportation of passengers in the backs of trucks or on trailers may be tempered for parade floats or hayrides, provided that the following points are strictly followed to prevent injuries: 1) Transportation to and from the parade or hayride site is not allowed on the truck or trailer. 2) Those persons riding, whether seated or standing, must be able to hold on to something stationary. 3) Legs should not hang over the side. 4) Flashing lights must illuminate a vehicle used for a hayride after dark, or the vehicle must be followed by a vehicle with flashing lights

"I was supposes to be a Pack campout, then the committee decided it should be a Webelos campout (which I as the Webelos leader didn't like because I hadn't gotten to have a say in where it was going to be held), and then they decided it should be a Pack campout again so that we could get more parents involved." Wow Kittle, all I can say is I am NOT impressed by your committee. What a mess. Maybe you can get the District Trainer to talk to them at your committee meeting. BTW - You don't have to be registered in a BS Troop to take the training. The more training we have the better we can deliver the program.

To directly answer your questions about parents on campouts - YES parent(s) should attend. NO - It is not optional or at the discretion of the CM. Per the Guide To Safe Scouting, EVERY scout (Tiger, Wolf, Bear or Webelos) should be under the supervision of a parent, guardian or a parent approved adult. "Our Pack had our first Pack campout last night, at least that is what I thougt it was going to be." "Ther leader who changed plans at the last minute is the leader who wanted this to be a family campout instead of Webelos campout." Which was it a Pack Campout or a Webelos Campout? If it was a Pack campout it should have been organized by a BALOO trained leader who should also have been in attendance. If it was a Webelos Den Campout then it was for Webelos Scouts, their Den Leaders (you) & their parent/guardian/parent approved adult ONLY. Either way, the Bear Den should NOT have been allowed to have a "Den Sleepover" on their own. It sounds like you might have a power struggle going on if what this leader did was purposefully "siphon" off kids from your campout (if it was supposed to be a Webelos only one) in order to create a Pack campout. If, as you say, everyone is trained, then they should all know better than to pull this kind of thing. At your next committee meeting you need to let them know, in no uncertain terms, that what they did was against all BSA regulations & if something had happened at this event, BSA insurance would NOT have covered it, the LEADER (& possibly the Pack) would have been completely libel. There are 365 days in a year. Surely the Pack could plan for 2 camping trips. Perhaps this Bear Leader could take BALOO training and do it correctly next time.

One other thing to remember about the flyer issue - BSA is guaranteed equal access by law. That means if the school sends home, or posts on its boards, flyers from ANY outside school organization (like the park district or a play being held elsewhere) then it HAS to allow BSA to do it too. Keep an eye out & contact your DE if you see anything. He should contact the school district & be able to get at least one flyer delivery out of it before the school shuts everyone out.

Sorry double post!(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

How about passing out flyers outside school, in uniform, with uniformed boys helping. Does anyone in the Pack currently have a boy in 1st grade? Have them talk to the parents in their boy's class. Does anyone in the Pack go to that school? Does the school give it's families a school directory? If you can get a directory mail each family a flyer directly. If your local churches publish bulletins or newsletters for their congregation, call & find out about placing a notice in the next issue. Place a notice in the community happenings section of your local newspaper. These are usually free. Contact local merchants about putting posters in their windows or flyers on their bulletin boards. Does the school participate in the Market Day fundraiser? Ask the organizers if they will put a flyer in every box. Volunteer the boys to be there, in uniform, to help people carry boxes to their cars.

I would tell the parents it is their responsibility to come on the trip & administer the meds themselves. From The Guide To Safe Scouting - "The taking of prescription medication is the responsibility of the individual taking the medication and/or that individual's parent or guardian. A Scout leader, after obtaining all the necessary information, can agree to accept the responsibility of making sure a Scout takes the necessary medication at the appropriate time, but BSA policy does not mandate nor necessarily encourage the Scout leader to do so. Also, if your state laws are more limiting, they must be followed." As far as how long drugs stay in the system, it depends on the drug & the body taking it.

There is obviously a disagreement between the parents on this issue. That is not uncommon. These medications are heavy duty & it is a very personal & stressful decision to make. You can not make judgments about what is best for this boy. He might be recently diagnosed with the correct combination of medications still being sorted out. He might be reacting to a medication that his body has grown used to over time. He might have more problems than you have been told about. I would also not take everything the venting father told you as gospel fact. There is no psychiatrist that would prescribe medication, based solely on the input from 1 teacher, without ever examining their patient in person. At least none who want to keep their license to practice medicine. As the others have said, keep out of it.

You are right, as the boys get older, & are doing more things, many times their parents decide that something has to go. Unfortunately, many times that something is Scouting. What can we do? Make sure the boys & their families are having as much fun as possible. When the boys can't wait to go to the next meeting, they will be less likely to decide to drop the activity altogether. Be flexible. Do not make the families choose between Scouts & other activities. There is too good a chance that Scouts will lose. Find ways for boys who can't make every meeting to participate. We are constantly doing the "sports shuffle", even at the Tiger level. Temporarily changing meeting times, or even days to accommodate the most number of boys. Trust me, the parents appreciate this because sports are NOT flexible! Make sure to keep boys who you have not heard from in a while in the loop for info. Don't automatically write them off if they don't show up often. Give the family a call & let them know that they are still considered a valued member of the Den. We had a family drop out near the end of Tigers. We kept in touch & they came back in Bears. Their Den leaders both moved over the summer & this Dad is now their new Webelos Leader! Have the boys talk up the fun they are having to their friends in their class. Have a "bring a buddy" Den meeting. Have the parents talk to their fellow class-parents and tell them what a great program Scouting is. I had been talking to a friend since her son was in 1st grade, trying to convince her to put him in Scouting. Finally, last year in 4th grade, they signed him up with us, despite the fact that we are chartered by a Catholic Church/School & they are Lutheran. His dad goes to every meeting with him & they are having a blast. He even brought the Lutheran religious medal program to the attention of his Pastor. He was the first child there to earn his "God & Family" award in many, many years. Make Scouting more visible. This year our Cubs (& maybe some Boy Scouts) will be taking turns doing an outdoor flag raising ceremony at the beginning of the school day. The Principal has even OK'd them to wear their Scout uniforms the day they have flag duty!

Remember - For a Pack to use a pool, even a backyard pool, they have to have someone trained in & follow BSA Safe Swim Defense.

While it is a good idea to register as many adults as possible, Tiger Partners do not have to be registered separately from their Tiger. The bottom part of the boy's application has a box to check that the adult info being provided is for the Tiger Cub Adult Partner. If they do NOT also check the box stating they are his guardian then they must fill out a separate adult application.

OA Ceremony Teams are a part of many lodges. They are a group of OA members who are dedicated to performing inspiring crossover ceremonies as part of their cheerful service. Most are made up of extremely creative individuals with a bent for performing. The crossover ceremonies are great, with lots of props, smoke, big Indians, etc. The Cubs LOVE it!!!! Especially when it is explained to them that these are Boy Scouts who have a special calling for ceremonies. When you plan your ceremony do not forget the rest of the Pack. They should all be there to see the "old" guys of the Pack move on & to get a feeling for what is waiting for them when they finish Cubs. You ceremony ideas sound great!

I have been an active member of GSUSA for 13 years & of BSA for 10 years. I was a paid professional at our local Girl Scout Council for 1 year. There is no "district & regional" level for GS cookies. Every Council runs their own Cookie Program, in their own way. There is a paid professional at the GS council offices who is in charge of the council's product sales (which by the way include more than just cookies). Then you have a volunteer who coordinates the Cookie program at the Service Unit (neighborhood) level who works with all of the Troops in the Service Unit. Then there is the volunteer Cookie Program coordinator at the Troop level who works directly with the girls. I have been a GS Cookie Program Coordinator at the Troop level for 11 years (5 years working with 2 Troops). I have also been the Cookie Program Coordinator for our Service Unit for 5 years. I have been Popcorn Kernal for our Pack for 8 years & for 2 years did both Pack & Troop. The numbers I quoted were accurate & taken directly from reports from my Troop, Service Unit, Girl Scout Council & Cub Scout Pack. I understand the topic perfectly well. The profit realized from the sale of Girl Scout cookies, weather or not it is equal to, or more, or less than that of popcorn sales, has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AMOUNT OF NATIONAL DUES charged by GSUSA. The national registration dues for Girl Scouts are the SAME as the national registration dues for Boy Scouts - $10. A Boy Scout makes significantly more profit from the sale of the cheapest container of popcorn than a Girl Scout makes from 1 box of cookies. Both programs claim that approximately 70% of the cost of the product stays in the local council. I am sure that you have found some financial information on line. However, you should NOT compare this information unless you know you are comparing EXACTLY the same things, & I would bet you are probably not. The 2 programs ARE set up fundamentally differently & it really irritates me when incorrect information is stated as gospel. It tends to give people the wrong impression of BOTH programs.

Does your Troop have any boys serving as Den Chiefs? This would be the best way to have the Cubs see the concept of "boy led" in action. Some of our most impressive Crossover ceremonies have been OA Indian ceremonies. I would say that if the ceremony ran by your Troop was a "mess", than the problem was with the Boy Scouts & a lack of proper planning & practice on their part. A new, snazzy ceremony will not fix that. You need to make sure the boys take their role seriously & not just wing it. What ceremony ideas do you have in mind?

Its Me said - "The second is you are making the wrong compassion for unit size and organization a bay scout Patrol should be compared with a girls scout troop. A GS neighborhood is more like a BS Troop. So when you say troop sales compare favorably, you are comparing 50 boys with 8 girls." Not exactly. A Girl Scout Neighborhood (or Service Unit) is more like a Boy Scout District. There are almost 400 girls in my (rather small) GS Service Unit. There are about 100 girls in the Catholic grammer school (averages about 11 per Troop) that charters both our Pack & Troop. The bottom line is that GSUSA & BSA are two completely different programs. They are set up differently, do things differently, report things differently, and in general can NOT be compared effectively.

Backpacker - Are you by any chance a registered Girl Scout Leader? Have you any first hand knowledge of the Girl Scout Program? It sure does not sound like it. " Facts are facts and those presented here are accurate." Which facts are accurate? The links to both of the yearly reports are accurate, yes. The popcorn & cookie numbers are not accurate facts at all as far as I can tell. No source was cited to back these up. "popcorn sales are not a requirement whereas all GS troops participate in their national cookie sale" Hopefully this is not one of your "accurate facts" because it this not true. While it is a national activity, participation in the Cookie Program Activity is not required of any Girl Scout or GS Troop. Actually, Daisy Girl Scouts, the youngest, are not allowed to participate in the Cookie Activity at all. "To state that troops make as much on popcorn as GS makes on cookie sales is naive at best, unless you can compare the top selling BS troop to the lowest selling GS troop and even in that case you would still be wrong." No Backpacker, you would be wrong. ONE (1) Girl Scout Troop, consisting of FIVE (5) girls, sold cookies in 2004 for a total profit for their Troop of $428.40. ONE (1) Wolf DEN, consisting of FIVE (5) boys, sold popcorn in 2004 for a total profit for their Pack of $685.50. The girls had to sell 504 boxes of cookies to make that profit (which was at the HIGHEST profit per box in the USA). The boys sold 177 containers of popcorn (which was at the average profit nationwide). I don't know much about "plastic bubbles", but I do know inflammatory kaka when I read it.

You can request Den Chief's from any BS Troop. It does not have to be just from the one owned by your CO. We currently have 2 Den Chiefs & could use 2 more. Our Troop's SM is not very pro Den Chief & most of the boys are not really interested. We are considering asking another local Troop (which has some boys from our school) if any of their boys are interested. We encourage our Webelos to visit as many of the local Troops as possible. Each one has a different "feel" & what works for one boy maight not work for another.

I rather agree with CM Jerry. After no dues at all, $90 per boy, along with a "couple" of fundraisers, is going to be an unpleasant shock. We had 30 boys in our Pack last year & from your posts it sounds like you have about the same amount. For 30 boys at $90 each you end up with $2700. Add in another estimated $50 per boy for those couple of fundraisers and you are up to $4200. That's a good chunk of money. With 30 boys, we made $2900 on popcorn, which was our only income, & paid for just about everything. Taking your $90 Pack dues out of fundraising is a good idea. It will cut the "sticker shock". You might also find you don't need to do so many extra fundraisers.

I believe the requirements are in the Bear Handbook. They are also on the Whittling Chip wallet card (# 34223A) that you can purchase at your Scout Shop. Or you can find them online here : http://www.usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/whittlingchip.html It is up to your Pack what they wish to purchase to recognize this. You can do just the card, just the patch, or both. Remember that the patch is considered a TEMPORARY PATCH only. It should be worn centered on the right pocket (NOT the pocket flap), or on a patch vest.

My GSUSA council had the highest Troop profit on their Cookie Program nationwide last year. The profit came to only 21.25%. Most councils had significantly lower profit. Our profit was $0.85 (with NO incentive prizes at all!) on a $4 box of cookies. Do you have any concept how hard it was to sell cookies for $4 per box? Boy Scout units get a minimum of 30% profit nationwide. Many councils give up to 40%. At 30% that is $4.50 profit from one $15 box of microwave popcorn. Our Girl Scout Troop would have to sell 6 boxes of cookies to make the same profit. Did I mention that NONE of the cookie money goes to GSUSA National. Just like BSA Popcorn, ALL GSUSA Cookie money stays with the local council to pay for regular operating expenses (bills like gas, electric, etc & salaries). tjhammer - please quote your sources for the GSUSA & BSA product sales totals.

Like Trev said, every Den can & should have a Den Chief. Many Troops restrict Den Chiefs to 1st Class & above because it is a Position of Responsibility, but that does not mean that you can not be a Den Chief if you are younger. My son likes helping with Scouts & working with younger boys. When he was a 4th grade Webelos the Pack was losing Tigers because none of the parents would be leaders. I was his Webelos DL, but had plenty of help, so I volunteered to take on the Tigers too. Thru his 4th & 5th year he would come along with me to Tiger meetings to help with games & such. When he was in 6th grade & in the BS Troop, I asked him if he wanted to take Den Chief training & make his affiliation with the Pack official. He approached his SM & got a VERY lukewarm reception. His SM mentioned the upcoming Den Chief training in passing, but got no other takers. My son pressed the issue & told his SM he was taking the training anyway. Faced with a done deal, his SM reluctantly OK'd his becoming a Den Chief. That first year, while he continued to help me with my Tigers, he also took on the 4th grade Webelos Den. The Webelos Den was not a good fit for him because, like your scouts, he was to close in age to them. The leader also treated him like an older Webelos & not like a part of the leadership team. By the end of his 6th grade year he had decided to concentrate his efforts solely on my Tigers, who he had gotten to know quite well. At Pack Graduation, when we introduced the brand new Wolf leaders, we also introduced their Den Chief. Although he continued(s) to help me with Tigers off & on, he took "his" Den all the way through, and in Feb '05 he crossed them all over into his Boy Scout Troop. Along the way he tried to get some of his buddies interested in being a Den Chief. He got 2 to do it for a year, but neither one was very interested or very good. Then he recruited the brother of one of the guys who had not liked being a Den Chief. Just like my guy, he started in 6th grade and has been working with the same den for 2 years now. Unfortunately, the SM is still not very fond of Den Chiefs & neither recognizes them or promotes the program. Get your guys trained & get them in younger Dens that can really use the help. Even though they are to young to use the leadership as a POR, it is a GREAT learning experience for them. Good luck!

It does not really "beg the question". What it does is illustrate the fact that just about every poster on this forum, & just about everyone else out there in BSA-land is woefully ignorant of the fact that these are the skills they should be teaching & testing the boys for. If we were just doing a test to see if indeed a boy can actually swim and not just walk, or hop, on the bottom, then I would have no problem with boys pushing off from the bottom to get back to the surface. However, swimming ability is not the ONLY skill we should be testing for. What we need to do is stop quibbling over how deep is deep & make sure our boys are learning the correct skills. Even after a requirement has been signed off, the boy should still be practicing the skill often. The next time we are at a pool or lake with the boys we can do a mini training showing them the proper way to enter deep water. It makes me wonder just how many other skills we are shortchanging the boys on because we are to busy to read the handbook & it has "always" been signed off this way!

Remember, the activities should ALL be at the WEBELOS level, not the Boy Scout level. That includes cooking, etc. Also the Webelos should have at least 1 of their parents with them. Make sure to include them in the activities too. Have you considered holding a Webelos-ree instead? You could have the Troops run the stations. http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/13-238/index.html

OK, Seriously now folks, I can understand Bob W's frustration. I also agree totally with him. After taking a peek in the Handbook, I realized that it would make no difference at all if the water was 1/2" over a boy's head or 20 miles over his head. Yup, that's right, no difference. There is no difference because, according to the BSA Scout Handbook, if done properly, the boy should not even get his face wet. You see, as Bob mentioned, the boys are supposed to be learning SKILLS. That is what we are trying to do here, right. Teach these boys all kinds of different physical & life skills. The SKILLS we are supposed to be teaching the boys, that we are testing for in 2nd Class requirement #7b, are: 1) Jumping into deep water 2) Starting to swim after entering the water 3) Swimming on the surface 4) Stopping swimming 5) Turning in water 6) Restarting swimming Six different skills that we are supposed to be teaching these boys. How to enter deep water is one of the skills we should be teaching. According to the BSA Handbook, this is a very specific skill, with a very specific way that it should be taught. Beginning with jumping into waist deep water & ending by having learned how to jump into water over his head in such a way as to land on or near the surface ready to begin swimming. As his skills improve & he learns more strokes & techniques, the swimming requirements for 1st class will reflect that. So, as Bob W said, it's not just about completing requirements, it's about teaching & learning SKILLS.