ScoutNut

You said your son talked to his "former Scoutmaster". Does this mean he has changed Troops? If so, he should talk to his current Scoutmaster, NOT his former one. His requirements have all been signed off so there should have no question about them, they are a done deal at this point. I doubt the Unit Commissioner will be able to do anything with the former SM. If I were you I would contact your council's Advancement Committee Chair. Helping boys thru the Eagle process is part of what that committee does.

We have Show 'n Sell orders first & most units order enough to (hopefully) cover both Show 'n Sell & Take Order. That makes for a LOT of popcorn. All of the broken case orders tend to allow for more mistakes in picking & it does make it much messier. Next year they are going to allow only full case orders for Show 'n Sell. It will make it easier to pull & to see mistakes. We will still be able to return unsold individual pieces at the end of the Show 'n Sell period & order individual pieces for Take Order though so we will not get stuck.

In order to charter a Unit you have to have a Cubmaster & Committee Chair. If you have them on paper ONLY how is your Pack functioning? Who runs the Pack meetings? Are you even having monthly Pack meetings? If not, how are the boys receiving their recognitions? Contact your District Commissioner to find out who your Unit Commissioner is and ask for help. Also talk to your District Exec. According to your council website, your district (Timber Trails) has a Roundtable coming up 11/10/05. Give your council a call to find out time & place. That is a great place to talk to your district folks. You might think about asking for a list of nearby Packs that are actually up & running right!

I was thinking blue/green for those FL, LA Units!

"What if I need/want to be seen? I can think of medical or any number of other emrgency scenarios where I would not want to blend in." Camping at a public park during hunting season comes to mind.

BSA Leave No Trace http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/21-105/ Under The Principals of Leave No Trace - #7 - Be Considerate of Other Visitors: "Make sure the colors of clothing and gear blend with the environment." There is nothing that says no red shirtjacs. Somehow I doubt that means that Troops that winter camp must go out and purchase 2 sets of gear (tents, tarps, backpacks, stoves, etc), 1 camo colored & 1 white. When the BSA starts selling uniforms to coordinate with what ever natural surroundings you might be camping in (white, camo, sand, green, grey, blue, etc) then I will consider not wearing the BSA red wool shirtjac.

A Den Chief is part of the Den Leadership Team and should be treated as such. If you, as DL, are involved in your Dens ceremonies, then why would you leave out one of the other Den Leaders? Involve him in everything your den does, including the monthly recognition/advancement ceremonies.

And hopefully CNYScouter is not saying that just because someone can afford to attend Woodbadge he is a better Scouter than someone who can't. Personally, I don't care if a person wears a uniform or not, has an extra $200 to spend on advanced training or can barely afford Basic Training, volunteers for everything under the sun or just does odd jobs when asked. If they are doing their best to help deliver the very best BSA program they can to the boys, that is what counts. To me, that makes them the best Scouter around!!

Gilski, do you mean that what ever service they do, even if it is on their own without the Troop, that they have to be in uniform? That seems rather unrealistic to me. It also is rather contrary to the BSA stating that BSA uniforms should be worn primarly for Scouting Activities. What if they are participating in a marathon to support cancer research? They can't run in their uniform & even if it was practical to do so they can't wear the uniform to raise money for another orgnization. How about painting. Those pants are expensive, & getting mud & grass from camp on them is bad enough. If you want them to paint in uniform then you had better have a new uniform to hand them when they are through! What about participating in a play to bring in food for a food pantry? I doubt that Peter Pan in a BSA uniform would "fly"!

Perhaps the problem was that the other boys never contacted the dad to work on the merit badge. It is not the Counselor's job to contact the boys and set up a class.

" Maybe this is a way of gently explaining to your well-meaning (take it on faith that he is well-meaning...it'll make your job easier...) but errant leader that they shouldn't be setting up fundraising events without the pack's knowledge/permission." Unfortunately, in this case the errant leader (CM) was the Popcorn Chair. It is the job of the Popcorn Chair to set up popcorn sales. I do not know of any Popcorn Chair who runs sales past the Committee for permission first. I know that I sure don't. This year I set up 21 Booth Sales with 48 shifts. If I had to get Committee permission before I contacted each business it would be a mess. Sign-up sheets are out at each Pack meeting for parents/scouts. Some sales have had to be canceled because no one signed up, some were shortened because either the shift workers never showed or no one signed up, & some were run with only 1 family working it. These decisions were made by me, as Popcorn Kernal, & NOT run past Committee for permission. The fact that he made his son & 1 other Scout do (?#) hours of selling on their own at a store was not a good choice, but as Popcorn Chair it was HIS choice. Jamie - A hint for next year - Look for someone with a girl in Girl Scouts & experience working/running their cookie program. Not only will they be more likely to volunteer for the boys if they are already working with the girls, but you will have someone who has a clue how to run the sale!

Of course there is more to achieving the rank of Eagle. But what they get out of it is not JUST from those last 6 months of Life or from doing the Eagle Project. The real benefit of earning Eagle is from all of the years they have been learning about their world and learning various skills, including leadership. They don't suddenly learn leadership from doing an Eagle Project. That should be a showcase of the skills that they have picked up over their years in Scouts, WITHOUT EVER KNOWING THEY ARE LEARNING THEM. Earning Eagle is great, it's wonderful, but it is NOT necessary, in most cases they already have the skills. And the truth of the matter is, for these boys in high school, one of the MAJOR reasons they even consider bothering to earn Eagle is for what it can do for them. The same is true for Girl Scouts working toward their Girl Scout Gold Award. They have spent years growing in skills, leadership & self confidence. They also do not need to earn their highest Scouting honor in order to benefit from Scouts. Why then do these boys & girls stay in Scouts in high school? They might like the program & enjoy the activities, but realistically, they have a LOT more on their plates in high school. They need to allocate a lot more time to schoolwork, especially if they are in honors or AP classes. High school sports takes up way more time than grammar, middle school or park district. They have clubs they get involved in that also take up a lot of their time, especially if they are service (Snowball, SADD, Habitat for Humanity) or learning (Model UN, Engineering). They play in bands & act in theater productions. Many even have part time jobs. Why, with all of this, should they 1) stay in Scouts & 2) earn their Scouting program's highest award/rank? For many of these kids the MAJOR reason is "it looks good on an application". There is nothing wrong with this. It is a VERY valid reason. For those planning on going to college, this thought is behind many of the decisions they make about the classes they take, the clubs they join & the activities they do from the first day of their first year in high school. Some even earlier. Earning the BSA Eagle or the GSUSA Gold just might be the deciding factor of weather or not they get accepted to the school of their choice, or receive that important scholarship that enables them to even go to college at all! For those going into the workforce after high school, earning the Eagle or Gold might mean the difference between a good or bad job, higher pay, or more opportunities at work. So, please don't scream, or downplay that as a reason. It is actually one of the best. I will now step down from my soapbox & let the discussion return to the original question!

NO - Dens are NOT allowed to do their own fundraising. You need to let your families know that boys are supposed to pay their own way in Scouts. The Pack needs the cooperation of EVERYONE if it is going to be able to provide a great program for THEIR boys. Remind them of the Law of the Pack - The Cub Scout follows Akela. The Cub Scout helps the pack go. The pack helps the Cub Scout grow. The Cub Scout gives goodwill.

Don't forget to fill out a Unit Money Earning Application to get your non-council-sponsored fundraisers approved by your council. As long as your Council & your Church have approved the fundraisers, & you are selling outside, why worry? There are some people who live to complain. Just refer them to your Deacon Council. Our former Pastor did not want anyone except for a select few selling product on Church property. The new Pastor had no problem when asked about setting up tables outside to sell popcorn.

A couple of things - If the CM is Popcorn Chair, perhaps it is because NOBODY ELSE would do it. Granted, it sounds like he could be doing a better job of the Booth Sales, but did you talk to him about it? Did you discuss his setting up other sales opportunities for the rest of the boys before you called the stores? There are other places to hold a Booth Sale. Some ideas - Nursery, Post Office, Hardware, Bank, Church, Grocery, Video, Druggist, Farmers Market, Library, Parades, School Events. You said that by being at the sale in uniform he gave the impression that "it was all going to the Pack". Well, unless you have separate Cub accounts, IT IS! Sure the boys get their participation prizes, but goal setting is one of the things the boys learn by participating in this sale. The sale is billed as Pack # 123 Popcorn Sale, not John Doe's Popcorn Sale. The customers are asked to support Scouting in their community. The popcorn profit funds your Pack's & your Council's program for a year. If this man is truly a bad CM, then it is your JOB, as CC, to contact your COR (Charter Org Rep) about replacing him. Finally - Please sign up for training ASAP. You need to take Committee Specific, but it might help you understand better if you took CM Specific also. Next year, in your capacity as CC, approach a parent & ask them to take on the Popcorn Chair position.

From the BSA Unit Money Earning Application : "The official uniform is intended to be worn primarily for use in connection with Scouting activities. However, the uniform may be worn in connection with council-sponsored product sales programs." Popcorn is a council-sponsored product sale. The CM was fine wearing his uniform. I doubt anyone noticed the patch on his sleeve which said Cubmaster. Does the Pack have a Popcorn Chairman (Kernal)? Were the CM & the DL doing a "Show & Sell" with popcorn in hand? Or were they doing a "Take Order" using only the order sheet? If they were doing a Show & Sell with popcorn, they must have received the popcorn from someone. I am guessing that someone was the Pack's Popcorn Chairman. If the Popcorn Chair approved of the sale there should not really be a problem. Yes, the boys would get credit for the popcorn sold, but so would the Pack & the Council. Our Pack does both Show & sell and Take Order. As our Pack's Popcorn Kernal, I set up all Show & Sell Booth Sales. If anyone gets an idea for a spot they run it past me first (not the CC). I really do not want someone going to a business on their own for many reasons. The business's do not like being called by 20 different people. You can NOT just show up, the business would have every right to tell you to leave. There might be a reason why we do not sell at a particular location that an individual would not be aware of. I need to know what boys did Booth Sales so I can properly allocate the sales. We sign out all popcorn before the sale & sign it back in after the sale to keep track of what was sold & to make sure we have the correct money. Instead of complaining about the CM & DL's selling ideas, give your Popcorn Chair a call & see about setting up other sales opportunities.

We have had families move who opted to stay in our Pack. We also have families who live elsewhere, but work nearby so they belong to our Pack. We even have a ASM in our Troop who moved 1 hr away who drives in every week for the meeting! It all depends on what works for the families involved.

There are red vests that go up to adult sizes. Boy Scouts CAN wear them, although they seldom do. You can put them on a sweatshirt or a patch blanket, or whatever you wish. The blanket is nice because they can hang it on their wall for display. I would not take any of his patches off of his Cub Vest. Sometime down the road, when he is having a VERY special ceremony for attaining a VERY special rank (yep - Eagle!) he might just want to put out all of his old Cubbie gear. Around here, Cubbie Gear is part of their display at their celebration. It is pretty cool to be reminded of all the great things he did as he grew. Also, it is great fun to see how things have changed.

"What is SM conference role in scout spirit - how could a SM pass a scout in SM conference unless scout demonstrates satisfactory scout spirit?" Unless you are combining the Scout Spirit sign-off with your SM Conference (not necessary), & something comes up about the boys behavior (like EagleInKY stated), you can not "Fail" a SM Conference. Holding one is all that is required. The purpose of the SM Conference is to talk to the boy, get to know him, find out how he feels about scouting, find out if scouting is doing it's job with him, find out where he would like to go in scouting, & did I mention, GET TO KNOW the boy! "Eagle letters of recommendation (also for STAR, LIFE if used) -- if all are positive and support advancement, how do they fit into scout spirit signoff?" They don't really, they are a separate issue altogether. However, WHY would you require EAGLE letters of recommendation for STAR or LIFE? They are for the rank of EAGLE only. If I was in a Troop that asked my son for letters of recommendation for the rank of STAR or LIFE, it would certainly fit into my vision of the Troop's Scout Spirit & we would be gone before you could say "Per the BSA, you are not allowed to add to any requirements"!! Go to training, purchase the Leader books, including the Advancement Policies & Procedures, & read them. Most of these practices are not "local" they are simply practices which are against BSA policy.

Irene Szinavel became SE of DesPlaines Valley Council in 1995. Ten years later she is still serving as our SE & doing a fine job.

Your CM, CC & COR need to step up & start doing their jobs. The CC & COR are the ones who should be recruiting committee members, not the UC (& FScouter is correct, ideally a UC should NOT have ties to the unit(s) he serves). Your CM also needs to put his foot down about program & Pack meeting issues. To lessen the "dad made" issue, have race rules written out with "boy made only" in bold, very large type! Make sure that everyone in the Pack gets a copy. Maybe you could hold an adults only race for the dad made entries. Your Pack should also stress the fun side of the race & not just the winner side. Do a theme race like sports, cartoons, nature. Have the car/boat made or decorated to look like something in the theme (football, sponge bob, acorn, etc). It's hard to be fast when it looks like a tennis racket! Have a "Best of Show" prize & pick the car/boat that most look like it was made by a boy/dad TEAM. Give out 1st, 2nd, 3rd places, but also make sure everyone else gets acknowledged for their hard work with some kind of award (ribbon, certificate, etc). Involve the BOYS, not the parents, by having only the boy touch his car/boat after it is logged in.

Our council has not done a Scout-a-Rama for at least 9-10 years. If I remember correctly it was open to the public & sale of the tickets were a council/unit fundraiser. There were various booths that showcased Boy/Cub Scout skills.

"Several folks have suggested picking the parents you want & recruiting them. Sounds good on paper, but I'm guessing that's where the original 5 that do 70% of the work came from. The problem is getting the uninvolved to get involved." Why is this a problem? You have already said that is most likely how the original 5 were recruited. Why not try it on the "uninvolved" masses too! My experience has been that it's not that folks do not want to help, they just do not want to VOLUNTEER. You need to go up to a likely suc-eh-eh (sorry!) RECRUIT (yeah, that's it!) & personally ask them to do something. You can start small, like help organize who's bringing what for a Pot Luck dinner, call around & find an place to do a hayride & hot dog roast (not to necessarily make the reservations, etc, just do research), run a game at a Pack meeting (not find or create, just run), be Pit Dad for PWD, be photographer for PWD driver licenses, be Chief Griller at Pack Campout, etc. Have each Den be responsible for a Pack meeting. That would include flag cermonies, gathering activity, snack, set/clean-up, & a song/skit. Make sure the Den Leader puts a parent in charge of each part & does not just do it himself. That spreads the work & involves the parents in both the Den & Pack without a long term commitment on their part. Make sure, as CM, to recognize, in front of the whole Pack, the folks who do help out. Do something like have the parents who helped with that Pack meeting stand up, then pull a silly cheer out of your Cheer Box & lead it in their honor! Everyone likes a pat on the back & a thank you.

It is not "competing with retail businesses" that is frowned upon. the correct terminology is: "Is it reasonably certain that people who need work or business will not lose it as a result of your units plan? Your unit should neither sell nor offer services that will damage someones livelihood. If possible, check with the people who may be affected." For instance, if a small yard service gets its business from the same area that you are planning on approaching to offer Troop Yard Service for a donation, that could be a problem. If you set up a food/drink booth at a ball field that has its own concession booth. If you set up a Troop car wash directly adjacent to a car wash business. Do you see the difference? If your money earning project will have a direct, negative impact on someone's business, you should not do it. A supermarket will not lose enough business from your Troop selling candy to make a dent in their year end profit/loss. However, a small businessman losing a chunk of his income, even a small chunk on a very short term basis, could put him in dire straits when it comes to paying his bills. That is not something BSA wants to promote.

2Cubdad - I never said tenting with boy buddies was a YP issue. What I was wondering was why it was such a big issue to have parents at your Webelos/Troop campout. "Another question is what you do with the dads." If the dads/moms have been camping with their sons for the past 5 years, & the boys have been sleeping separately from their parents, what have you been doing with the parents up until now? Why is it suddenly such a problem because you will have parents along? The parents should have been camping with their sons all along (IF you have been folowing the G2SS Guidelines). Remember, you are selling your Troop to the parents just as much as to the Webelos. All things being equal, and even though it SHOULD be the boy who makes the decision, the parents are usually the ones with the final say. If they are uncomfortable with your Troop, odds are they will convince their son to look elsewhere.