ScoutNut

As bbng stated, the COR is the only person who can be REGISTERED in more than one position. However, volunteers regularly are registered in one, major position, but serve in multiple positions, unregistered. This has the potential for the leader to be overworked & stretched to thin, leading to burnout. The more parents & community members you can get to volunteer, the more the work is spread out & the more people get to have FUN & not just work!

Mike - I realize you are trying to help, but instead of you & the Chapter Adviser doing this, it sounds to me like this should be something for the boys who are Lodge Officers to work on. Have you brought this up to the Lodge or Chapter Executive Committee? The way to get Troops more involved in OA is not thru the adults. It should be thru the boys & thru the Troop OA Representative. BTW - The primary purpose of the OA is NOT just service / support to the boys individual units. It is much more than that. Per the OA national site: The purpose of the Order of the Arrow is fourfold: 1) To recognize those Scout campers who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives. 2) To develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit. 3) To promote Scout camping. 4) To crystallize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership in cheerful service to others. Per the OA Guide for Officers & Adviser's : The lodge program should be directed toward achieving the purpose of the Order, camping promotion, council service, leadership development, and cheerful service to the community. The OA's service & support extends well beyond individual Troops. It goes all the way from Arrowmen working with Cub Scout Packs, to Arrowmen helping to train other Scouts & even Scouters, to Arrowmen from all over working to keep BSA's High Adventure Bases in top shape & the area's ecology sound. It should not be a Troop's adults mentality of "what have you done for me lately". It should be the Troop's boys saying "what can we do to have a positive impact on Scouting, our community & the world at large". (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

We hit 32 years together this year. We have spent the past 14 years as Scout Leaders together, in both GSUSA & BSA. So, I would say that Scouting has most definately had an impact on our marriage, our family, & our life!

You have 5 dens & 4 rooms. Why do you have to all meet on the same day, at the same time? Why don't your dens meet on different days? That way you could even use 1 room for Pack storage only & still have plenty of room for the dens to meet. Some of our Cub Dens meet in our Parish School on various evenings & on Saturday, some meet in a Den Leader's home in the evening. One Den meets on the same evening as our BS Troop, but they meet earlier & are finishing up as the BS's are starting so it works well for their Den Chief. There are no Den meetings on the evenings we hold the monthly Pack meeting.

You could give them all a holiday scarf slide. I was at our local Michael's craft store & they had 12 mini ornaments for $3. They are ceramic looking (prob plastic) & come in different designs. It would be easy enough to take the hanging string off & hot glue a pipe cleaner ring on the back. Best of all, there is one for you too!

Sorry Lisa, it sounded to me like you were saying the CM had no input into program at all & only did what he/she was told by the committee. You are right, the CM does not "run" the Pack. Unfortunately, in this case it sounds like nobody is running the Pack! Tomtoad, do you know who your Unit Commissioner (UC) is? Their job is to help Units (Pack, Troop, Crew) & your Pack could certainly use some help. If your Pack has not been assigned a UC, give your local council a call and find out who your District Commissioner is. Your DC should be able to help too.

Repair a picture frame Repair a small stool Repair a lamp Repair whatever they have broken around the house. Have them go thru their basement/attic/garage junk with their parents & bring in whatever broken things they have that their parents feel could possibly be mended. Sort thru the stuff, talk to the boys about it & pick out 1 thing for each boy. Have each boy bring the materials to fix it to the next meeting. (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

"First, the CM is supposed to be a sort of "master of ceremonies" who runs the monthly pack meeting. That's it. The pack program should already be arranged by the committee (including all the planning and logistics) so that all the CM needs to do is show up." Not exactly. The Committee & the CC are the administrative end of the Pack, & the CM is the program end. The CM & the Pack committee, TOGETHER, plan the yearly program, monthly pack meetings & Pack activities. The Committee oversees everything & makes sure that the CM has what he needs to run a good program.

That is the strangest way to put a Pack together that I have ever heard of!! Who is the Pack's Charter Organization? Or does each "unit" have it's own Charter Org? Or is it one of those "Parents Of" type of Charters? Eagle is right, your Pack is way to fragmented to be run correctly. No wonder you are having problems. You need to consolidate your Dens or do as the CM is suggesting & (if there are enough boys out there) split into 3 separate Packs.

In order to help I need some calrification of some terms you are using. You keep mentioning various "Units". Do you mean "Dens"? Or has your Charter Organization (CO) chartered 3 different Cub Scout Packs? When you say the Cubmaster (CM) & her husband want your "unit" to break away from the Pack, are you speaking of just your Wolf Den? One thing that stands out is that you state the CM runs your "Unit". Packs are mainly "run" by the Committee Chair (CC) & the Charter Org Representative (COR). The CM is in charge of the program part of it & runs the Pack meetings. I must admit to being confused by how your Pack is set up.

"And no, I have never seen anywhere what new webelos boys in tan shirts who earn the bobcat are supposed to do with it!" Ahhh - Lisa, you haven't read the Insigna Guide or the Uniform Inspection Sheet lately have you? : Per the Uniform Inspection Sheet (because I can directly copy a quote & not have to hunt it down) : "Webelos Scouts wear only current badge of rank (Bobcat,Wolf, Bear, or Webelos badge) centered on (left) pocket." The accent on current is mine. This is their option if they are new, or choose not to go with the rank badge fruit salad diamond. If they choose the diamond, & they are new, the Bobcat would go at the top & Webelos (when they earn it) would go on the bottom. Just me, I would go with the 1 current badge of rank. Less sewing, unsewing, & resewing.

I will assume that when he crosses to BS in 02/07, he will be wearing a tan shirt with the oval Webelos badge on the left pocket & the AOL beneath. Otherwise he would be shirtless or wearing a shadowbox! LOL The shadowbox is to display his Cub awards, not to meet BSA uniforming standards. You have to find the room to fit a number of things in there that are not normally worn on the shirt. Since you will have to purchase an extra Webelos & AOL badge anyway, get the oval one, it will look nicer. Put the oval Webelos, with the AOL under it, next to the pocket with the other ranks.

I like those big plastic Rubermaid type containers. They have handles built into the ends for carrying, are big enough for all the patrol gear, and are not to heavy/bulky for 2 smallish boys to wrestle with. I would use a separate container for food however. You don't want food in the same container as cleaning supplies in case of a leak. Also, in most cases the food would be staying in the cars & not in tents or out at the campsite where animals could get into it.

Since he is a registered Leader, but can't really be counted on to come when he SHOULD be there, the first thing I would do is not to count on him, at all. However, when he does show up, with or without his son, PUT HIM TO WORK! Do NOT allow him to just "hang out", no matter how late he arrives. Even if what he is doing is going over the boys books and recording completed achievements. Give him a visible reason to be there. Give him a game to get ready & then have him run it, give him a song to lead, if you are demonstrating something to the boys use him as the demonstration volunteer/model, give him a group of boys to supervise during a crafty activity, have him pass out newsletters. Just make sure he is helping with SOMETHING! Then, when you can get him on his own, at the end of a meeting, sit him down & ask him what is going on with his son. Find out why he is coming without him & if there is anything you can do to encourage his son. Let him know that you are concerned that his son is missing out on a lot of the fun of scouting & a lot of great Scouting WITH his dad. Keep in mind that Greg's scenario might just be what's going on here. There might be problems at home & maybe the boy is not coming because he is away with his mom & the dad might not be comfortable talking to others about it.

As I said, it is just to impractical to make every single, individual course into a 2-3 day course. Besides the money issue, you would never get enough people to sign up to make it worth doing. There are some out there like you, who are experienced & would love extended, in-depth courses. However, the vast majority complain about giving up 1-2 hours for Roundtable & blanch at the thought of an 8 hour training. They are NOT going to give up 3 days of their time for in-depth training. Have you considered attending the Philmont Training Center in the summer? Contact your council about details of the courses & how you can get invited to attend. BTW - You can even bring your entire family with you!

You will also need permission slips from EVERY child attending, even if their parent is with them. For those who will not have their parent attending they should have something in writing from the parent stating which adult will be responsible for their child. And, as ManassasEagle reminded, you must also provide SEPARATE sleeping areas for adults, youth, males & females. (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

resqman, did you fill out an evaluation sheet at the end of your training? Did you let the trainers know of your concerns? These outdoor trainings are standardized by National. Each has their syllabus that should be followed by the trainers. Kittle - your District is doing their Webelos Leaders a disservice by combining two entirely different trainings (or completely dumping Webelos Leader Outdoor). Trainings can not last for 3-4 days straight. It is just not possible. The all day Saturday training you attended was probably a Pow Wow. The organizers have about 8 hours to get training to usually around 100 Scouters. There are no funds to do this more than once each year, so they have to do the best they can. These are not meant to be in-depth trainings. These are "ENHANCEMENTS". They provide you with ideas, some hands on practice, handouts with more ideas & references where YOU can go to find out more. The problem BSA faces with Outdoor training, is that they have to accommodate people with a variety of skills. You will have folks who have never even lit a pilot light on a stove or looked at a tent in a store all the way to folks who backpack in the back country every chance they get. As a result the trainings aim for the middle of the road group who probably have a bit of experience with the outdoors, but need to be taught the BSA way of doing things. You need to ask questions at your trainings. The trainers will do their best to give you as much info as they can, but they are also trying to follow the syllabus & time-line so you can get out of there at least close to on time. They might be willing to spend an extra 2 hours going over extra stuff, but I doubt that all of the attendees would be very happy. As to learning to build a fire without the use of matches, you need to learn how to get the fire going, to not burn the camp down in the process & keep the boys safe before you try anything fancy.

It may not be camping, but it is an overnight. Pack overnighter G2SS rules should apply. Pack Overnighters These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Site Approval Standards, No. 13-508). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

So, I take it that you encourage the use of hair spray as a fire starter?

I can only hope that this was posted tongue-in-cheek! Of course, if you really wanted to have a great patrol building activity, you could have 1 team shooting potatoes & 1 team knocking them out of the sky with tomahawks! (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

Ok, first you say that if a Pack has a "hole" at a particular level it means the Pack has a "weak" program. Then you state that Pack leaders don't pay attention to membership programs. Wow, you really know how to leap to assumptions based on a little knowledge and generalized facts. I take exception to your assumptions & your tone & I am very glad our District Membership Chair is not like that. As MarkS stated, "holes" at a particular level can be from a variety of reasons. A "weak" program is only 1, and not the most common. As for structured membership programs, sometimes they just do NOT work for a particular area, Pack, or classroom. It is no ones fault, the program is being implemented properly, it just does NOT click for whatever reason. The answer is not short term or one time only promotions, or even glitzy marketing materials. The answer is an ongoing push to keep the Scouts highly visible in the community doing service & having FUN! You also need to target the parent & not just the boy. We have done classroom talks where every child in the room, including the girls, were jumping up & down to join & then only 1 or 2 families actually sign up. The boys can be chomping at the bit to become a Scout, but if the parents will not consider it, for whatever reason, you are stuck. We have 40 boys registered this year. We added new boys at every level & have what I believe is a very good, active, quality program. Unfortunately, we can't seem to connect with our 1st grade families this year. We currently have 4 Tigers (who are GREAT!), but nothing we do seems to work with this class to attract more. We have a few more ideas we are going to try. Maybe they are more of a drop & run bunch & we will get more to sign up next year, we will have to see. So, please do not approach your District's Packs with an attitude & preconceived ideas of what kind of program & people they have. That is not the way to help anyone.

Southpacific, I am sorry you find me rude, it was not my intention. However, I did not miss the point of your posts. What you were doing was NOT simply looking for information or an alternate program. What you were doing was misrepresenting and bashing a program you obviously do not like (GSUSA) and comparing it to a program you do like (BSA). BSA & GSUSA are 2 completely different organizations which are set up completely differently. You simply can not, & should not, compare the 2 programs. As in the BSA, GSUSA councils each run things a bit differently. Some are better than others (just like in the BSA). Also like the BSA, GSUSA Leaders run the gamut from exceptionally good to exceptionally bad. And, like BSA, the program the kids get is only as good as the program the adults deliver. Trashing the entire GSUSA program because of a few bad leaders or questionable council practices is very wrong. You might as well say that the entire BSA Scouting program is "inferior" because some Scoutmasters do not run boy led programs, some councils have been caught padding numbers, & then there is the National professional who was caught with child porn. "Now I could talk about leaders that leave their troop to take a paid position with council; resulting in that troop being disbanded." Leaders leave their positions all the time. Some get new jobs (paid professional at Scout Council is only 1 type of job), some move, some get burned out. If there is no other parent who is willing to step up and work to keep Scouting alive for their child, then Troops disband, Dens dissolve, Packs disappear, & Units loose their charters. How can you blame GSUSA because every parent in a Troop wanted a free ride and was not willing to work for their child? "Or council paid fundraiser trainers. Or paying for fundraising training." I will take a leap here and conclude you are talking about Council Sponsored Product Programs. The council folks who train the Troop folks are indeed paid professionals. In most cases they are the full time employees in the Product Program Department. They run council sale programs & many times also work with donations, corporate fundraising (much different than product sale programs), & searching out & writing up of grants. This helps keep the council running & providing program, both now, for your daughter, & in the future for your grandchildren & great grandchildren. Sometimes these paid council folks will have with them at the training, a rep from the company they are getting the product from (ie-Little Brownie Baker). These are Sales Reps and are not paid by the council. They are there to help show the sales program which was developed by their company, the council & the girls in the council (yep, the girls have input into what the incentives are and other areas). As for paying for Fall Product or Cookie Program training, as I stated earlier all councils are different. Perhaps your council charges for this training, however from 1991 through the present, my council has not. BBNG, had stated that their council's training started at $35. My council does not charge for Basic Level training, as a matter of fact many can be taken on-line, from your own home. They do charge for some trainings like first aid & outdoor, but that is mainly because of the supplies & facilities involved. Once again differences between councils. I live OVER 1 hour from our council's main office. If I need something from them I can mail, call, e-mail, or fax. I can purchase patches, awards, etc from other councils or by phone or on-line. It is not always easy, or convenient, but if you have to, you learn to manage. I have been Troop Leader for my daughters Troop for 12 years, worked with our school's GS organizers to plan/run GS Sunday & Lock-in programs for 9 years, worked with our Service Unit Team to run area activities for many years, was Troop Cookie Mgr for 1 Troop for 11 years, 2 Troops for 5 years & for the last 7 years have been the Service Unit Cookie Manager for our area. So, partly because of my "commitment level", & that of other adults in our area who were/are just as committed, WE, with the HELP of our GSUSA council, are giving the girls in our area the best possible Girl Scout program that WE can. You say that you are not a Leader. Why not? Why just complain, but not jump in there in the trenches with your wife and work with her to give the girls a good program? Why leave it all to someone else to do? I too, am very sorry your Girl Scout experience has been so bad. You might try signing your daughter up for Camp Fire, 4-H or Heritage Girls. Maybe one of them will "mirror your families values" better. But, you should understand that like GSUSA & BSA, you will probably only get out of these other programs what you are willing to put into them.

You should contact your District Popcorn Kernel & tell them to push for Show & Sell for next year. Push it at your next Roundtable & to your DE also. Show & Sell is a great way to reach people who normally don't get approached. It also gives those families who don't like having their kids go door to door a way to sell. Your council might not offer Show & Sell because they are afraid of getting stuck with a lot of unsold popcorn by Trail's End. If they run it like mine (& many others) does the extras should be minimal. We run Show & Sell first & then allow unsold Show & Sell popcorn to be returned at the same time units order their Take Order corn. The Show & Sell returns are rolled over into Take Orders & Council only has to order what's needed to cover the rest of the Take Orders. If Trail's End gives them a case minimum to purchase they could consider combining their order with that of a nearby council. It is a bit more work on the council's part because they have basically 3 popcorn days, Show & Sell Delivery, Show & Sell Return & Take Order Delivery, but I think it would help increase popcorn sales across the council. My family helps out at Show & Sell Delivery & Return each year. It is a lot of work, but fun too! My son really likes working with the council folks & meeting leaders (& Scouts) from across council. And, at 6'3", 200 lbs, he can really work those popcorn cases!

She paid the $200+ or so to get trained. Wow! What kind of training is she taking? I have been a Girl Scout Leader for almost 14 years now, & have taken every training I needed/wanted & it has not come even CLOSE to $100 let alone $200. The costs for training in my council are either free or minimal. The most expensive would be the weekend training, leader retreat. That can be rather pricey, but it is for 2 nights at a nice outdoor retreat resort. At that, it is still a lot cheaper than the $210 my BSA Council charges for Woodbadge Training! not being allowed to use their trademarks on your materials, As long as it is not for commercial use, all you need is your Council's permission to be able to use photos, illustrations, text, & the GS Service Mark. No big deal! You must remember this material is Trademarked & Copyrighted so it is a legal issue. GSUSA does have clipart available on it's National site. The BSA also has restrictions on the use of it's trademarks & logos. more interest in their fundraisers than the girls, I am really not sure how you come to this conclusion. Like the BSA, GSUSA needs funds to stay in business, both at the council & Troop level. Unlike the BSA, GSUSA has nationalized their main money earning projects (Fall Product & Cookies) & incorporated them into their Scouting Program. The girls not only earn money, but they learn things too. all the moneys going to council nothing coming back, Once again, I am not sure what you mean here. What monies? If you mean the Fall Product & Cookie Programs, the Troops receive profit from them just as BSA units do from their popcorn sale. GSUSA Councils use their part of the profits in much the same way BSA Councils use theirs. so many paid leaders, Your GSUSA Council PAYS it's LEADERS!?!?!? Your WIFE is PAID by GSUSA to be a Troop Leader??? I'm obviously in the wrong council! Here, I have been paying THEM for 14 years to be a Leader! The GSUSA Council's in my area are volunteer based, just like the BSA Council's are. Like BSA, they do have some paid staff, but the majority of the folks are volunteers who pay their $10 registration fees to GSUSA National each year, just like we do for BSA. tons of safety training little to none on how to conduct a troop meeting. - They train more than the national guard. Not that they learn about the girls. Well since you paid over $200, maybe you should have paid more attention during training. The basic training for each level covers Girl Scout program goals, age level characteristics, diversity and inclusion, girl/adult partnership progression, behavior management, conflict resolution and age specific activities. Enrichment training is all about learning new activities and things to take back to your troop. I did not have to "seek BSA for the "how to's"". I already knew "how to" from my GSUSA training & I brought that with me to my boys in BSA. MY beautiful daughter was a youth member of GSUSA for 12 years. Neither she, or any of the other girls in our Troop, were interested in joining a Venturing Crew, although I did ask them. They all earned their Girl Scout Silver & Girl Scout Gold awards. They all became giving, self confident, hard working, wonderful young women who are now in college and are lifetime adult GSUSA members. I agree with Semper, both BSA & GSUSA have their good & bad points. Neither are perfect. I happen to like both. If you don't like GSUSA, or feel that it is not right for your daughter, then you should look into one of the other youth programs that are out there.

Money Earning - NOT Service. One other problem I have with this is the product itself. Is the Cookie Dough homemade? Is it in some type of bag, with the bag placed in a jar, or is the dough being scooped up by handfuls & dropped into an empty jar? I am sorry to say, this sounds VERY unsanitary, with much potential for tampering & I would not even consider purchasing it. You might find this a hard product to get rid of.