ScoutNut

You did not say if you were talking about Cub or Boy Scout camping. The others have given you the answer for Boy Scouts. For Cub Scouts the answer is different. For Cub Scout camping the father & his sons should tent together. If the father is in charge of another Cub Scout in addition to his own sons, than OGE's "Guide to Safe Scouting" rule #7 would come into play. In that case the boys would sleep in 1 tent & the father would sleep in another.

Keep in mind that Cubs are not allowed to work in more than one level at a time. That means that while they are finishing up their Wolf rank award, they may not work on any Bear requirements. Also, as has been mentioned, get the parents actively involved. They can (& should) be working with their son at home on the missing requirements. It does NOT have to all be done in den meetings.

What Eamonn said to the letter. Going on assumptions, instead of following BSA procedure is not a good idea. Obviously, there were a LOT of people out there making different assumptions. This needs to be cleared up by the CC & the COR. Kristi, I gotta say, the first thing I thought was "HUH? Your DC ONLY wants CM's as Day Camp Directors? What kind of kook is he?".

What a mess. From what you posted, it sounds like you have some folks who can't play nice & are not ready to hand over the reins unless it's to a hand picked pal. Your COR may not be hands on, but he/she, or the head of the Charter Org him/her self, are the ONLY ones who can straighten this mess out. Your CO, as John said, OWNS your Pack, & what they say goes. They are the ones with the right to "hire" & "fire" volunteers, NOT the Pack's Den Leaders. As possibly incoming CC, you need the COR & Co's approval. Call your Unit Commissioner, he can help you talk to your COR & CO. Get them together & talk to them. Let them know that THEIR unit is tearing itself apart & needs them to step up to the plate. BTW - No one has to write "Transfer of Position" on the Adult Application. Along with the main info (including new position code) they simply fill in the white box at the top of the application that says Transfer From - Unit Type - Unit Number, attach their BSA ID & a check for $1.

As EagleInKY noted, an adult can hold positions in more than one unit. You state that all of the adults have filled out forms for the Troop. Does that mean that they filled out the transfer portion of the BSA adult registration form? If that is what they did, then they are no longer registered with your Pack as the have transfered their registration to the Troop. If they have they simply filled out a whole new registration form, then they will be registered with both the Troop & your Pack until re-charter time, or until you tell your council to take them off of your charter. If the new CC, CM, etc have all filled out registration forms, with their new position codes, which have been signed off & turned into your council registrar, then all your Pack/Charter Org needs to do is let the council registrar know that the former leaders need to be taken off of the Pack's charter because they have moved on to the Troop. If your Pack wants to retain any of the old leaders, then your COR can let them know they are welcome to stay as Committee members only & that the new CC will be talking to them to see where they can best fit in. Other than that, a formal introduction, possibly a simple ceremony, at your next Pack meeting should cover everything. BTW - How - and why - have they been trying to get "some of the leadership to quit"?

Kristi - If it had been me, & a boy YELLED inappropriate comments at me in the school, I know I would not have taken the time to talk to him at all. I would have hauled his butt down to the Principle's office for discipline so fast his head would be twirling! That mother was lucky you decided to simply "embarrass" (?) her son. He could have, & most likely should have, been given detention at the very least. Find a Pack with decent families & have fun with your son again!

"I know that life doesn't end at 52. But looking at it this way just makes it seem that it will be forever." I have been an adult leader in a Scouting program (GS, CS, BS) for 14 years now. Sometimes only one, sometimes two, sometimes all three at once. Time just seems to slip away. If you enjoy it, it's not daunting at all. Don't look ahead and get beyond yourself. Sometimes life does happen while we are scouting & things might change for you. Enjoy what you are doing now. Happy Scouting!!

"telling them that National requires a one to one ratio is the same as telling them that wearing the uniform while traveling is required for insurance purposes." Not exactly. Nowhere in any BSA literature, online or print, does it mention that the BSA uniform must be worn while traveling. The fact that it is BSA policy for Cubs to have a parent with them while camping is documented in multiple places. It really is not that hard to follow this policy. You simply tell the Pack families that it is BSA policy that a parent SHOULD attend with their Scout(s) & that if the family runs into a real problem, where a parent can not attend, then they will be allowed to designate a replacement of either another adult family member or another Pack parent. This does NOT mean one-to-one. This does NOT mean that a family with multiple sons in Cubs has to find an adult for each of their sons! If you have 1 mom who takes 3 of her own Cub Scout sons camping that is fine, & meets BSA policy. You have 3 boys who are each under the supervision of their own parent. However, if the mom or dad can't attend, but the boys really want to go, then the parents need to find someone else to take over the supervision of their 3 boys for the trip. I would suggest a Pack parent with only 1 Scout son & a BIG car! Cub Scouts involves the FAMILY & Webelos are STILL Cub Scouts. That is how the program is written.

The online version of the "Guide to Safe Scouting" is not the "old" version. The changes itemized in the Appendix have been made to the online version as of the dates listed.

From the "Guide To Safe Scouting" on Aircraft & Tour Permits - "Aircraft Air travel is subject to the following rules: On any flight scheduled by a commercial airline. The BSA Flying Permit, No. 19-672 (see sample in appendix), is required for all BSA flying activities except for commercial flights. The local council reviews and approves the flight permit just as it would a tour permit. The Parent/Guardian Consent Form, No. 19-673, is also required. Units should attach the signed consent forms to the BSA Flying Permit Application and keep a copy of the signed consent forms in their files. Flying in hang gliders, ultralights, experimental class aircraft, and hot-air balloons (whether or not they are tethered); parachuting, and flying in aircraft as part of a search and rescue mission are unauthorized activities. Airplane travelers are cautioned about what they pack in their luggage. In flight, variations in temperature and air pressure can cause some hazardous materials to leak or ignite. Included in the category of hazardous materials that should not be packed in luggage are matches or lighters; flammable liquids and gases; signal flares and other explosives; bleaches, aerosols, mercury, and solvents containing dangerous chemicals that can cause toxic fumes and corrosion. Tour Permits If a unit plans a trip within 500 miles of the home base, it is important that the unit obtain a local tour permit. A national tour permit is required for trips in excess of 500 miles from home or outside the continental United States. (See samples of both in the appendix.) Tour permits have become recognized by national parks, military institutions, and other organizations as proof that a unit activity has been well planned and organized and is under capable and qualified leadership. These organizations may require the tour permit for entry. Most short, in-town den trips of a few hours do not require a tour permit; however, it is recommended that dens obtain permission slips from parents." Local Tour Permits are needed for insurance purposes & to be sure that the proper BSA guidelines are being followed. Call your local Council Service Center & talk to the person in charge of approving Tour Permits. They should be able to help you out with any questions & be able to help if you are in a time crunch. Permission slips are a good idea for all outings, even if the parents are present. They should include emergency contact numbers of someone who will be available at home during the outing, health info & medical insurance info. The point of this is to prevent problems if something happens to the parents or the whole family while on the outing. This is especially important if the outing involves ANY potential danger (like flying).

"As for National policy I first refer you to the Youth Protection Training material revised 2004 which states that a 1 to 5 ratio must be maintained." I have just redone (April, 2006) my Youth Protection training with the current materials. NOWHERE in the YPT does it mention anything about a 1-5 ratio. It mentions 2-Deep & no 1 on 1, but NOTHING about a ratio of 1-5. Many Councils will have a 1 adult for every 5 youth ratio for COUNCIL EVENTS. For all Cub Scouts, including Webelos, the RULE for camping/overnights, as it is written in the "Guide to Safe Scouting", & as you yourself have noted in bold print, is - "In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult." This means that the BSA RULE for PACK & DEN camping/overnighters is that each Cub Scout attend with their own parent/guardian. The EXCEPTION would be if a parent/guardian can not attend with their child & gives another family member or adult permission to be responsible for their son. If you want to use the 1-to-5 ratio, that would be a "worst case" senerio for a Pack or Webelos Den camping outing. For a PACK or DEN level camping/overnighter (NOT council), you sure as heck should NOT start out saying you ONLY need 1 adult(not even a parent) for every 5 Cubs, if you get more signed up great, but they are not needed. THAT is what I would call "injecting our view point" & NOT "reading what is actually written".

The "Guide To Safe Scouting" has already been updated as of April 5, 2006. You can find the most current copy, along with all changes, online at - http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gssay.html If you are planning an outing NOW you must go by what is CURRENTLY in the Guide & in other BSA pulications. You can not plan properly working with rumors & what if's. You also can not hold off planning an outing until some unknown time when some rumored changes might appear.

National policy is that one adult must be current Youth Protection trained on all trips & outings (not BALOO). A Tour Permit (local or national depends on the distance) is neccessary as are permission slips (even if parents are present). I would have as many parents as possible & only if a parent can not attend can they approve another family member or adult to be in charge of their son. This is what BSA has to say on museum overnighters for Cubs - " Lock-ins or overnight programming at local museums or other appropriate locations may be approved by the local council. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents or guardians are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips."

"Scoutnut: Yup, in GSUSA, the council owns the Troop, it's money & it's equipment. And in BSA the CO *technically* owns all of the above. I have to say that from my perspective it is ludicrous to suggest that GSUSA is more controlling than BSA. However, the BSA/GSUSA debate, which I do not wish to continue, belongs on another thread which you may start if you want." OK - I never said ANYTHING about GSUSA being more controlling than BSA. I was simply verifying for John-in-KC the fact that GSUSA Councils do indeed OWN their individual Troops, as he thought. I was also correcting a comment made by you on the purpose of VISTAs. I do NOT "debate" GSUSA vs BSA. There is no point to it. They are 2 completely different organizations, with 2 completely different ways they are put together & run. It would be like "debating" arm chairs vs recliners! "Forgive me for being snide, but are you so sure that those little knot badges (and other kinds of recognition) don't give any incentive to some scouters to try to keep members in their own district?" Yes, I am sure. The Scouters that I know in my District are much more interested in 1) the boys, 2) their own units, 3) and/or helping the District out with program, training, etc, to worry about where 10 boys from some dying Pack are transferring to. The District Exec might care, & try to keep the unit going, he is being PAID to do that, but bottom line is the DE can't do a thing if the folks in the unit don't want to continue with it. Because your Pack & Pack B continue to insist that there be more drama involved in all of this, over & above the simple filling out the transfer portion of a BSA registration form for everyone involved, I can see nothing else that we can tell you. I am glad that your family has decided to continue, even if the others do not. Good Luck to you.

Another idea that you might think about - I asked my daughter, a GS Gold Award recipient, how she felt about your scholarship idea. Her response was that there are plenty of scholarships/grants out there for the "best & the brightest" (Scouts or not). They have no problem finding a way to receive an education. She stated that if you truly wanted to give back to the community & make it a better place, than you should target the scholarship specifically for inner city, underprivileged youth. She also suggested that it not be tied to attendance at a 4 year university. Technical schools & Community Colleges should also be included. Anything that would help these youth get better educated & be able to make something better of their lives. She said that she would gladly support a scholarship of that sort.

"The rule is 1 to 5 with each scout being the specific responsibility of a specific adult." Can you please give me the BSA reference for this rule & where it states it applies to Webelos? Thanks!

Yes, Webelos should start the transition when they become first become Webelos. That is the point of the Webelos program. However, you should NOT start treating Webelos like Boy Scouts. They are NOT Boy Scouts. They are still in the Cub Scout program and the "Guide to Safe Scouting" rules for Cub Scouts & Webelos Scouts apply, NOT the rules for Boy Scouts. Webelos do NOT work in patrols. A patrol is a Boy Scout concept. If the Webelos choose it, they can wear a DEN Emblem. Although they are the same patches as the Boy Scouts wear, they are NOT called PATROL Emblems. Webelos do NOT use the Boy Scout sign when all around them are using the Cub sign. They are not Boy Scouts. They are LEARNING the Boy Scout sign, along with other Boy Scout things, but they are still Cub Scouts & should be using the Cub Scout sign for all flag ceremonies, Pack meetings, etc. When Webelos camp, even with BS Troops, their parents should be camping with them. They can camp without the rest of the Pack, but they are NOT to camp without parents. They should also NOT be doing Boy Scout requirements when camping with a Troop. Working on their Webelos Activity pin requirements is fine, but NOT Boy Scout level stuff.

Yup, in GSUSA, the council owns the Troop, it's money & it's equipment. That is why your council's name is on each Troop's checking account. Turning SU's into VISTAs is not about control. It is about GSUSA National's next step in the nationwide Realignment process. VISTAs are currently a pilot program in some councils, but once the kinks are worked out the concept, in some form, will be instituted across the country. But, like BSA, a GSUSA council can NOT tell a girl what Troop they can or can't join. They also can NOT tell a girl she can not join a Troop because it is in another council. We had a girl in our Troop move into another council's area. She continued to register with our Troop, in our council, without any problems. We had another girl, who lived in another council, transfered to our school & our Troop, & later transfered back to her old Troop in the other council. There was also a Troop in our Service Unit (District) whose leaders had some kind of problem with the council so they moved their meeting place into the council next door & switched their registrations to that council. This last one did cause some unhappy waves at our council, but there was nothing the council could do to stop them. We have also had Cubs move out of council & continue to be registered with us & attend our meetings until they found something they liked closer to their new home. No one needed either councils permission. GS-CS_leader states - "I'm still hoping that we can convince our current district to accept that it might that it might be in our best interest to change councils and to give the change "their blessing"." You don't have to convince your current district of ANYTHING. What you do NOT seem to understand is that, beyond the inconvenience of losing a unit, your council could CARE LESS what Pack or council you people register with. "Although if my council doesn't cooperate, I'm not above begging them for a chance." Begging them for a chance to do what? Fill out a BSA registration form? They can NOT stop you. You can get registration forms from your current council's offices, the neighboring council's offices, or off of the Internet. GS-CS Leader, I too am sorry to hear that you will pull your son out of Cub Scouts completely, if all of the families can not join the same Pack. What a shame. How does your son feel about that decision? As many people have told you, the BSA council, district, DE, UC, etc, etc, have ABSOLUTELY NO SAY in what council or unit boys & their families register. Requiring your DE to give your Pack families "written permission" to join another Pack, when that permission is NOT necessary, is ludicrous, to say the least. In making this demand, this other Pack has effectively said they don't want any of your families to join, but can't think of a GOOD reason to tell you, so they have come up with a STUPID one. Forget them. Talk to your current families & let them know that "Pack B" is a no-go. If you decide to take your son out of Scouting at this point, that is your choice. However, it would NOT be what I would do. I would pick another Pack that worked best for MY son & MY family, & send that Pack our registrations. Then I would let the other families know where I was registered, give them all registration forms along with a short run down of all area Packs. I would then tell them they had to make their OWN decisions on where/what they wanted to do based on what was best for THEIR boy & THEIR family. There is NO issue of being "scummy" or "abandoning" anyone. It is simply letting every family make it's OWN decision. (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

"It is time that we just stick up for our brother or sister scouts and recognize everyone for what they have done" Except that is not what you are proposing. You say you plan on excluding all Scouts because "they are offered scholarships already through their respective programs". Non-Scouts also have many scholarships available to them. The Scout scholarships are offered, for the most part, to only those Scouts who have attained the rank of Eagle or have been awarded the Girl Scout Gold Award. That, as you point out, leaves a large number of Scouts who are ineligible for those scholarships. Your idea of starting a scholarship is a fine one. However, you plan on approaching people, who have attained the highest honor in their respective Scouting programs, to ask them to fund this scholarship. You might have an easier sell if you did not exclude all youth in Scouting programs from this scholarship. Instead, open it to ALL high school youth entering college. You might take a look at some scholarship websites to get an idea of how they are set up & get some criteria ideas. Fastweb is a good site to use.

If we had 10 new boys sign up for the same den, the first place we would look would be our current families in that level. We know them, they know us & we know who would do a good job as a den leader. Per BSA guidelines on selecting new leaders, we would make a list of our top picks & approach them individually, starting at the top of the list. If we had no takers with current families, the next thing would be to see if the current den leader could manage with everyone for a while. Not ideal, but until the new families could be evaluated & prospects approached, it might work short-term. AdkPaddler, the flier should be fine. We use the council fliers every year for our roundups too. Let us know how the Kinder grade den works out for you.

OK, Just some corrections of terminology. Girl Scouts of the United States - GSUSA Gold Scout - No such thing. There are no ranks as such in GSUSA, just levels (like in Cubs). The Girl Scout Gold Award is the highest award in Girl Scouting. To earn it a girl has to be a Senior Girl Scout (former term) or (current term) a Girl Scout 14-17 years old. Since it's inception in 1916, this award has had several other names (Golden Eaglet, Curved Bar, First Class). A question - why exclude Scouts from the Scholarship? That is biased also. I think you might have a problem getting folks who spent a great deal of their youth as a Scout, & who most likely had their life shaped by Scouting, to go along with excluding all Scouts.

Boys & their families can leave a Pack at any time & join any Pack they wish. There is no "rule" that says who can join what Pack. Yes, your current council (DE) might be upset. They will be losing a unit & boys from their membership. Their bottom line numbers will be reduced by 10 boys. So what. That is not your problem, or the problem of any of the other families in the Pack, or any other Pack any of the families chose to join. Your current council can NOT stop anyone from joining a BSA unit in the next council, or any other council. It sounds like the only "problem" you have is with that one committee member. You know that you don't have to move as a group, don't you. If some families want to stay in town, some want to join a pack further away, & some others want to go elsewhere they are perfectly able to do so on their own. Are there any other Packs in the nearby council that are possibilities? I would visit as many Packs as possible to see how their programs look. If you have other possibilities, I would tell the one Pack with the gossipy committee member that you will be going elsewhere.

You don't say how old the young lady was, so I do not know if she would have still been involved in scouting or not. Find out from your SM if she was still close to her old GS Troopmates. If she was get contact info & find out if any of them would be interested in participating. Also, contact her GS council for contact info for her GS Service Unit to find if there are any current GS, who might have know her, and who would be interested in participating. In order to earn the Gold, she would have had to do a LOT of service & leadership. There might be some younger girls out there who she worked with who would love this opportuity to give back to her in some small way. Some readings that could be modified to work for you - Prayer Composed by Chief Yellow Lark, a Blackfoot Indian - Oh, Great Spirit, whose voice I hear in the winds and whose breath gives life to all the world, hear me. I come before you, one of your many children. I am weak and small. I need your strength and wisdom. Let me walk in beauty and make my eyes ever behold the red and purple sunset; my ears sharp so I may hear your voice. Make me wise, so I may learn the things you have taught my people, the lessons you have hidden under every rock and leaf. I seek strength, not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy--myself. Make me ever ready to come to you with clean hands and straight eyes, so whenever life fades, like the fading sunset, my spirit will come to you without shame. The Great Spirit Prayer - The lone, wild fowl in lofty flight is still with Thee, nor leaves Thy sight. The ends of earth are in Thy hand, the sea's dark deep and no man's land. And I am Thine, I rest in Thee. Great Spirit, come and rest in me. Amen. The Scout Beatitudes - Blessed are the Scouts who are taught to see beauty in all things around them...for their world will be a place of grace and wonder. Blessed are the Scouts who are led with patience and understanding... for they will learn the strength of endurance and the gift of tolerance. Blessed are the Scouts who are provided a home where family members dwell in harmony and close communion...for they shall become the peacemakers of the world. Blessed are the Scouts who are taught the value and power of truth...for they shall search for knowledge and use it with wisdom and discernment. Blessed are the Scouts who are guided by those with faith in a loving God...for they will find Him early and will walk with Him through life. Blessed are the Scouts who are loved and know that they are loved...for they shall sow seeds of love in the world and reap joy for themselves and others. Native North American prayer - Do not stand at my bier and weep, I am not there. I do not sleep, I am a thousand winds that blow, I am the diamond glints on snow, I am the sunlight on ripened grain, I am the gentle autumn's rain. When you awaken in the morning's hush, I am the swift, uplifting rush of Quiet birds in circled flight. I am the soft stars that shine at night. Do not stand at my bier and cry; I am not there, I did not die. Henry Scott Holland, English clergyman - Death is nothing at all... I have only slipped away into the next room. I am I, and you are you. Whatever we were to each other, that we are still Call me by my old familiar name, Speak to me in the easy way you always used. Put no difference into your tone Wear no forced air of solemnity or sorrow. Laugh as we always laughed at the little jokes we enjoyed together. Play, smile, think of me, pray for me. Let my name be ever the household word that it always was Let it be spoken without effort, without the ghost of a shadow on it. Life means all that it ever meant. It is the same as it ever was; there is absolutely unbroken continuity.... Why should I be out of your mind because I am out of sight? I am waiting for you for an interval, Somewhere very near, just around the corner. All is well The Final Flight - Don't grieve for me, for now I'm free, I'm following the path God laid for me. I took his hand when I heard his call, I turned my back and left it all. I could not stay another day, To laugh, to love, to work, to play. Tasks left undone must stay that way, I've found that peace at the end of the day. If my parting has left a void, Then fill it with remembered joy. A friendship shared, a laugh, a kiss, Ah, yes, these things too I will miss. Be not burdened with times of sorrow, I wish you the sunshine of tomorrow. My Life's been full, I savoured much, Good friends, good times, a loved one' touch. Perhaps my time seemed all too brief, Don't lengthen it now with undue grief. Lift up your heart and share with me, God wanted me now, He set me free. Little Angels (2)- Author Unknown Change the name, age and gender for your own situation - God sent an angel to the earth... The sweetest angel too and for such a tiny little thing, she had so much to do. She knew she did not have much time upon this earth to stay, so she did not waste a second; she got started right away. Her eyes were bright and sparkly, she took in every turn. She did not miss a single thing, because Angel came to learn! God sent her here to touch the hearts of those he could not reach... She taught them courage, strength and faith, because Angel came to teach. Her tiny little body was so full of God above, you felt it when you held her, because Kaitlyn came to love. In eleven short months she managed what many never will. When she went home to Jesus, her purpose was fulfilled. She learned and taught, loved and played, she learned her lessons well. I know he was so proud of her when she went home to dwell. But when I miss her OH-SO-MUCH, I can almost hear him say, please understand, her work was done... Kaitlyn did not come to stay.

We have one den whose leader is very hard to contact, rarely attends committee meetings, is REAL bad at turning in award sheets to our Advancement Chair, & pretty much does his own thing. His main problem is that he works multiple jobs at different hours so he is always on the run. His parent helpers are also busy guys. He DOES however, make sure to turn in new registration forms (very important!), is great with the boys & runs a pretty good program. So, we grit our teeth, cut him some slack & work around the problems. You said "My biggest fear is that in trying to help, I'll say or do the wrong thing and scare away the leaders we have." If you can "scare away" leaders with offers of help, than they were NOT very committed to the boys & the program in the first place. Finding bilingual Den Chiefs is a GREAT idea. You should also look for bilingual parents. You said that "some" of the parents speak only Spanish. What about the others? They do not need to become leaders, but it sounds like the den could use help communicating. You need to sit these leaders down and find out what the problem is with committee meetings. Maybe they have conflicts with the day and/or time. You also need to find out how they are progressing with regards to rank. What are the problems there. What can you do to help. These are brand new leaders, maybe they could use some helpful coaching & ideas. Those registration forms being held up is a big problem. Make sure the leaders realize that registration has to be turned in ASAP because until the paperwork is turned in the new boys are NOT covered by BSA insurance. On thing that might help this den is to have a den newsletter that is in both English & Spanish. That way every family knows what is going on. This actually might be a good idea for the Pack as well if you have a number of Hispanic families. We had a boy in our Pack at one time whose parents were both deaf. At Pack meetings their older daughter would stand in front, where they could see her, & repeat everything for them in sign. It helped keep them from feeling isolated & involved them in the activities.

If none of your 60 families belong to your CO, is it any wonder they have a hard time seeing your Pack as THEIR youth group. They don't know you & you don't know them. There are NO real ties. As the pastor told you, the Pack is "just kinda there". If you plan on staying with them then you should do some heavy recruiting of their youth. You & your CC should make a point to get to know, PERSONALY, the head of the church, the other church leaders &, most important, the church Secretary. Stop by to say hi & chat, attend church services every once in a while, do large, visible service projects for the church, get involved with them, make yourselves know & liked.