ScoutNut

Not sure why acco is stuck on Webelos, but he is correct when he states that a BALOO trained adult is NOT needed to take your Webelos den camping. BALOO is for adults who are leading PACK camping overnights. You also do not need a BALOO trained adult to go to council camping events such as the various Summer Camps. For Webelos to go den camping, BSA RECOMMENDS that the Webelos den leader have taken Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders training, but they have NOT made it mandatory.

The boy can only be a registered Cub Scout until the end of 5th grade. After that he will no longer meet the Cub Scout joining requirements. There is no way around that. Since he is so emotionally immature, would he be able to do the job of a Den Chief? Being a Den Chief might be a good thing for him, but I do NOT think it should be used to make him just an "older Cub Scout". That is a REALLY bad precedent to set. If the SM agrees to this, the boy should go thru Den Chief training ASAP, and actually BE a Den Chief. I also do NOT agree that he should be given a pass on working with his Boy Scout Troop for the next year. Then you are back to making him into an "older Cub Scout" again. NOT a good idea. Your Troop's New Scout Troop Guide (if you don't have one - get one) should try to work more one-on-one with the boy for a while. I also like the idea of limiting his mom's presence at the meetings. If he does not have her to go to & "whine", maybe he will settle in more.

Ang - Didn't you get handouts from your course? You should have received a pocket folder with lots of different stuff about each section of the course. You can't usually purchase a training syllabus from your Scout Shop.

I agree that a 6 mile hike might be to much for some 10-11 year old scouts. That is why I specified 3 to 6 miles. Part of hiking is learning your limits & being prepared for them. While some boys might be fine with two 2-3 mile hikes, with a nice long lunch break in between, others would be hard pressed to finish a flat 2 mile nature trail. Know your scouts. Outdoorsman option # 8 states - "With your accompanying adult on a campout or outdoor activity, assist in preparing, cooking, and cleanup for one of your den's meals." Nothing in there says it must be cooked on either a campfire or backpacking stove. It does not have to be cooked "on the trail" either. Do your hike at a place with multiple trails, like a State Park. Do one trail in the morning then meet at a picnic area where other adults have set up for lunch. You can use a BBQ grill, pie irons, a Coleman stove, or even a box oven. Heck, you can do a DO lunch over charcoal if you want. The requirements state the boys are to "assist", not do it all themselves. You can have the boys split into kaper patrols, with adults or Boy Scouts. After lunch, the boys do the next trail. Then maybe some gorp they put together back at the picnic area & home.

Ahhh - Back to the idea of KNOWING your subject if you are going to be training folks! I have never received a BALOO Trainer card. It might be something local. Training the trainers at the same training they are working as trainers for makes my head spin & makes no sense! As Randy quoted, "Class 1 medical forms are recommended for ALL campers." That includes all adults (parents & leaders) & all youth. You need to know about any and all medical problems, especially allergies. You also need the contact info if something happens. The permission slip (informed consent agreement) is basically for insurance purposes. You can create your own, adding the info about the activity, or use BSA's. These forms should be kept at camp in a central area know to all. With the First Aid kit is a good idea.

Learning what/why you need to bring on a hike, even a short one, is something that the boys need to learn (leaders too). I would think that a 3-6 mile hike would be long enough for 4th & 5th graders. If your hike is closer to the 6 mile length, you could divide it in half & include cooking lunch. Inviting a Boy Scout Troop along would cover another requirement & the boys could help the Webelos with the cooking. Things that should be brought on a hike - Day Pack Map Trash bag Hat Water bottle First Aid kit Flashlight Bug repellent Sunscreen Whistle Raingear Long sleeve shirt or sweater Snack (trail mix/gorp) Wear - Sturdy boots or shoes Synthetic socks Long pants

My council also participates in the Gold Card program. Units earn their Gold Card by having every family return their FOS card (donating or not) & meeting a FOS goal that is based on a % increase over the previous year. The card can be used for the free purchase of rank awards only. It is good for one year from the date of the card. Our card is dated in April, 2006. It will cover the rank awards we still have outstanding for this year & all of those earned next year up until April, 2007.

When my son was going thru Cubs we never had snacks because we met in the evening. Now, my Tigers meet on Saturday mornings, so we seldom have snacks for them either as they have just had breakfast. Unless you meet right after school, or are doing a meeting on food, I don't think that snacks are needed.

"It's interesting that none of these replies identified anything from a BSA-approved/authorized source (website or document) that stated that either there are no other Wolf electives other than the 23 in the back section of the Wolf book or that extra achievements can NOT be counted as electives toward earning arrow points. Whereas at least two BSA-related sources of info (another Pack website and the Wolftrax spreadsheet) do state extra achievements apply as electives toward arrow points." Neither a Pack website or a spreadsheet program written by a volunteer and put on the internet for all to use should be considered as "BSA-related" beyond the fact that both are about the same subject, Scouting. Using that criteria, THIS forum is also "BSA-related", yet you do not want to believe what we are telling you on the matter OF Wolf Electives. NONE OF THESE SITES ARE "OFFICIAL BSA" SITES! From the Wolf Handbook, copyright 2003 by the BSA, (THAT makes it OFFICIAL BSA information) - Page 6 - "The Arrow Point Trail Your Cub Scout can also search the Arrow Point trail. On the Wolf trail, the main sections were called achievements, things that we would like all boys to do. On the Arrow Point Trail, the main sections are called electives, choices that a boy can make on his own and with your guidance. To earn a Gold Arrow Point to wear beneath his Wolf badge, a boy must complete any 10 elective projects of the more than 100 choices shown in the book. For every 10 additional electives he completes, the Wolf Cub Scout qualifies for a Silver Arrow Point to wear beneath the Gold." Page 109 - "Arrow Point Trail" "This arrow point tells you what to do" (picture of a solid black arrow point) "Fill in this arrow point when you have done it" (picture of an outline of an arrow point) "With your first 10 FILLED-IN (emphasis mine) arrow points you can get your GOLD Arrow Point; 10 more gives you a SILVER Arrow Point; and 10 more gives you another SILVER Arrow Point; an so on. You can keep track of your arrow points on pages 236 and 237." Page 236 - "Arrow Point Trail" "Fill in 10 arrowheads to earn a Gold Arrow Point." "Fill in 10 more arrowheads to earn EACH Silver Arrow Point." Below that are 23 elective categories listed with their page number (I's a Secret page 110) and 129 (your more than 100 choices) arrowhead outlines for filling in. That is pretty darn specific & clear cut to me & as "OFFICIALLY BSA" as you can get. Achievements are achievements, electives are electives & if there is no arrowhead to fill in then it is NOT an elective. If you are looking for a specific sentence in a BSA publication that says that using achievements for Wolf electives is NOT allowed, you aren't going to find it. You also aren't going to find a specific sentence stating that in order to earn Requirement 5b, Show how to use a pliers, the Wolf Cub Scouts should NOT demonstrate on fingers, toes or other body parts. I realize you are trying to come up with proof for yourself and rationalizations of why you should use the achievements because you have ALREADY USED THEM. However, despite what your Council Program Director has ok'd, that is NOT how the BSA wrote their Wolf Cub Scout program. IF you have already presented your boys with these electives then it is water under the bridge. If not, then I would simply explain to your families that you made a mistake and eliminate the incorrect electives. We all make mistakes. It would be nice to show the boys how mistakes SHOULD be handled. BTW - perhaps you should contact the person or website you got the tracker spreadsheet from & let them know they have an error on their spreadsheet that needs to be corrected.

We give them a slide (usually a tree slice w/the AOL burned on) and a vittle kit.

Not sure of the actual milage from me, but it's about a 20 min drive. It was moved a few years back to a more central location in the District.

What kind of training will you be doing? Will you be on Roundtable Staff, Council or District Training Staff, Outdoor training, a Pow Wow presenter, or a unit trainer? Have you taken the Trainer Development Conference? The kind of training you will be doing will make a difference in HOW you train. Some trainings have a specific syllabus to follow & in order to keep the training consistent across the country, BSA does not want variations from that syllabus. Other trainings might follow a general format, but be open to variation. Still others are pretty much of the "free form" variety. The Trainer Development Conference will give you lots of ideas & ways to get your information across to your audience. One thing I strongly suggest, be very knowledgeable in the subject that you are training. Know it inside & out & know all of the BSA rules, regs & policies that pertain to it. Nothing is more irritating than being "trained" by someone who doesn't have a clue what he is talking about & spreads incorrect information as fact.

"As for girls being bored by the pack meeting. Funny, theyre already there with their brothers. Everybody gets to play. But they do wish their brothers and Moms and Dads could see them get their advancement awards and recognition patches, too." So you want to invite your GS Troop to Pack meetings in order to award them their GS recognitions in front of their families? Why not just hold a Court of Honor for your GS Troop? You can invite all of their families, have snacks & a ceremony presenting the girls with their recognitions. Many GS Troops do this 2 or 3 times a year. As to girls who enjoy the outdoors being in the minority in their Troops, that's just the way it is sometimes. Any time you get more than 2 kids (and their families) together you will have varing likes & dislikes about just about everything. My Cubmaster is not very outdoorsy & does not like camping. Neither does anyone else in his family, except maybe his wife, but she gets outvoted! If it was up to him the Pack would not camp at all. However, we do not let that stop us. We now have 3 BALOO trained folks & do 1 or 2 Pack Overnights a year. The folks that like the outdoors come, the ones that do not, don't. The same goes for the girls. If you want to get them outdoors, & the girls are not real outdoorsy, then start slow & give them a choice of a few different outdoors things to do (hike-kite fly-etc) & let them pick one to try. Have the girls help plan different kinds of activities. Maybe have them pick a theme a month. BTW - If YOU make it clear that dads are more than welcome to help the Troop out (perhaps backed up by your husbands involvement) you might get some of the girls dads to take you up on it. You could even ask them, personaly, to help with a specific thing. I know many men involved in GSUSA with their daughters. You might help the moms to feel better about it by getting everyone together so they get to know each other. We had a family picnic each summer. Also remind parents that your council does a background check on everyone who fills out a GSUSA volunteer application. Yes, there are many differences between BSA & GSUSA, but that is because they ARE DIFFERENT PROGRAMS! Being different does not mean that one is better than the other. Just different.

Resqman has a valid point. You state - "My daughter is really happy to be identified as a Girl Scout, but as she has grown older (now finishing 3rd grade) she has frequently asked why the Girl Scouts don't do as much "fun stuff" as the Cub Scouts." Have you asked the girls what they want to do? Do you try to make their requests happen? The only thing stopping the girls from doing as much "fun stuff" as the boys, is their leaders & the girls themselves. Next year, as Juniors, they start in a whole new program with lots of interesting badges to earn. There should be plenty for them to learn & do, including the Girl Scout Bronze Award. "Girl Scouts have 1 campout a year -- no familiy, please. Cub Scouts have AT LEAST 2 family camp weekends each school year." Why doesn't your Troop camp more often? Do they tent camp, or just cabin camp? Is it that the girls don't like camping - or the leaders? My girls used to camp 2-3+ times a year. Once in the winter, in a cabin at a council camp, and 2X+ tenting at state parks. Once they got into high school they had significantly less free time, but we still managed to get out at least 1-2X a year. There is nothing in GSUSA rules that says a GS Troop can't have a family campout if that is what the girls want. "Girl Scouts have holiday sing alongs and ice skating parties. Cub Scouts have the Pinewood Derby and Snow Play Day." Nothing stopping the girls from having PWD, Snow Play Day, fishing derbies, kite flys or anything else. The only difference between BSA & GSUSA is that the girls don't usually have the activity planned FOR them. It is usually up to the GIRLS to do it with some help from adults in the Service Unit. At your next Service Unit meeting find out from the other leaders if their girls might be interested in a SU level PWD. You might even have your Pack loan the track to your SU. Our GS have done them & had a BLAST!

Clydesdale115 - Glad to hear your Wolf Den earned their Religious Emblems this year! Good for them!! Sorry to hear the award was not presented by their own religious orgs. Getting finished with the emblem workbooks around Christmas break is a good timeline. That is what we usually shoot for also. That gives us time to get the boys in to see the pastor for their final review & signoff & to get the medals. Yes, the Wolf's will have to earn the Webelos level emblem when they reach that point. It is not really earning it "again" as the emblems for the different levels are all completely different. They focus on different things and get more in-depth as the boys get older. If the boys are interested when they get into Boy Scouts, there are even emblems they can earn as middle/high school age scouts.

What would be the point to having your GS Troop attend Pack meetings? What would the girls get out of it? What would the boys get out of it? Cub Scouts might not be "boy led", but Girl Scouts is supposed to be "girl led". This is true even at the lowest level (Daisy) to some extent & much more so by the time they get to Juniors. What do your girls think of the idea? Personally, unless you had activities specifically for the girls, I think the girls would get bored real fast. And if you include activities for the girls you are defeating the purpose of a Pack meeting. Pack meetings should revolve around the boys & their families. They should showcase the boys accomplishments for the month.

We have Parent-Son camps & Day camps, no Resident camps as of yet. In a few years, when they get their Cub World up & running, they are planning on having Resident camp.

Remember, in order for it to count towards the requirement for the Webelos Rank award, it should be done in their Webelos year, not Bear. The God & Family is targeted for grades 4-5 & the Parvuli Dei for grades 3-4. Although the religious programs do take some time, there is really no need to start right now. If you are shooting for a February, 2007, Scout Sunday end date, starting in September gives you plenty of time. BTW - What about your 2nd grade Wolf dens? Do they earn their Religious Emblems also?

I am in the camp that says - NOT in the den meeting. The whole point of the religious emblem progam is to have the boys discover, learn, & grow stronger in THEIR OWN FAITH. Not YOUR faith, not the faith of the majority of the boys, but THEIR OWN faith. This is (or should be) a VERY personal experience, mentored by their parents & a member of their OWN religious organization. This is NOT simply something the den does to earn another rank requirement. Clydesdale - I am assuming that the church that is your CO is of a Protestant denomination. While the God & Family program is fine for your Protestant & generic Christian boys, it is NOT fine for the Catholic boy. What you can do is to either copy information on the 2 emblems (God & Family - Parvuli Dei), or purchase the workbooks. Then give the info/workbooks to the parents & let them decide if this is something they want to do with their son. If you want to set up group classes for the God & Family emblem with your pastor that's fine, but it should be on non-den time only & you should get signed permission slips from the parents to allow their boys to participate. Cramming everything into 1 month does everyone a disservice. Give out the info/workbooks, etc, as early in September as possible. This will give the boys a good 4 months to work on the emblems & get them signed off & approved by their religious organization's representative. Getting the medals might take some time. The signed forms for the God & Family have to be sent to PRAY & the medals ordered. The signed form for the Catholic program is also needed to purchase the Parvuli Dei medal, but you will have to contact the local (arch)diocesan Catholic Committee Chaplain to find out how/where to purchase it. The emblems are NOT to be given out at a Pack meeting or other BSA event. Idealy, they should be presented to the boys at a service/ceremony in their OWN church, traditionaly held on, or near, Boy Scout Sunday in February. The boys can receive their BSA purple square knot patch at your Pack meeting.

"I wish you we had you in our Pack because no one would step up and be a Tiger DL and we ended up losing our Tiger Cubs." THAT is why I stayed at the Pack level as Permanent Tiger Leader. Go for it!

"My problem is that I fear retaliation for merely raising the issue of dissenting opinion. I'm not talking about rasing dissent with the youth. I understand completely why that is an inappropriate way to generate change. But I wonder if it is not healthy to have debate about disagreements with BSA policy within adult level circles?" There isn't really anything we can say or do that will change your perception of possible persecution if you speak your mind. That is the way you see the world, and only you can change that. My question to you is, why do you feel such a strong need to debate with the fellow Scouters in your unit your (admittedly) minor disagreements with BSA? Are you trying to get them to agree with you? Change their minds? Change your mind? What exactly, other than simply to debate something/anything, would be the point? Sure, there are some BSA policies that I have an issue with. They are NOT deal-breakers or I would NOT still be a member of BSA. They are MY PERSONAL issues/viewpoints. I will not change my mind & I feel no need to "debate" MY feelings with other people. In MHO, it is just none of their business.

Please, please, PLEASE ! - I don't care HOW fast you have to put together a fundraiser, do NOT forget to turn in a Unit Money Earning Application to your council for approval. They are needed for many reasons, but the 2 best are 1) it is a BSA rule & 2) you are then covered by BSA insurance. The insurance protects not only the Pack, but the leaders & the place of business that the event is held at. All it takes is 1 crazy accident.

We start off with a per scout goal of $350 in sales. Every boy who reaches his goal gets a rocket kit. The top ten sellers each get to throw a whipped cream "pie" (paper plate with whipped cream) at the leader of their choice. We also do a combination of Take Order & Show & Sell. We have 2-4 booth sales just about every weekend. This gives lots of boys the opportunity to "pay their own way in Scouting" & "help the Pack grow". We don't do Cub Scout accounts. Every year we make enough in popcorn sales to fund our entire year. We are not looking to have a $100,000 cushion in the bank. We just about break even each year. However, the Pack provides just about everything for the scout, including scarf, slide, handbook, awards & the scouts cost for outings (except summer/day camp). The Pack also pays for all leader training (except for Woodbadge. As much as I would like it, I just cannot see asking the Pack pay $200+ for it) We keep the cost for the families as low as possible.

It is possible to avoid having to sew those wonderful little diamonds on that rather small pocket. Your local Scout Shop will sell you a nifty plastic, diamond shaped badge holder that hangs from the button of the shirt pocket. As your son earns his rank awards (congrats on earning Tiger BTW!) he just slips it into its little diamond shaped pocket. No fuss, no muss, & NO SEWING!

Who is your Charter Org? If they are something like a school's PTO, they might not have a lot of extra money beyond the charter fees. Our CO supports it's units (Pack & Troop) in financial ways, but there are plenty who are basically "paper" CO's only. Bottom line, the only way to know if they will help you out is to ask them. Sit down with your CC & your COR(Charter Org Rep) & discuss the issue.