ScoutNut

The ONLY Cub Scout DEN that is allowed to camp overnight as a DEN is Webelos. Tiger, Wolf, & Bear dens are restricted to PACK family camping & council/district camping. Wolf, Bear & Webelos are also allowed to attend council resident camp, while Tigers are not. These are the camping guidelines from the Guide to Safe Scouting - http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html As for cabins/buildings, many BSA camps do rent out their lodges or other accommodations when they are not being used. Many local Park Districts or State Parks will also have facilities that can be rented. Find out who your Pack's BALOO trained camping person is & offer to help put together a Pack Family Campout. Everyone, siblings included, are allowed at these.

I usually run thru the online version at BSA's E-Learning once a year. It does not take that long & it is always a good idea to refresh YP guidelines & to see if anything has been changed. Notification will be sent to your council & there is also a certificate you can print off. While it does not seem to be required for the "trained" strip, a YP adult is required on all Tour Permits. Also, if you look at the adult application, it states that "you are expected to complete the training (YP) within 90 days of assuming a leadership position."

If what you are inquiring about is sales tax exemptions, depending on your state, you should be able to get a copy of the sales tax exemtion letter from your local council. You would then show the letter when making purchases for your unit & would not have to pay state sales tax. If you are talking about a tax ID number for reporting donations on your income tax form, that would come from your Charter Organization.

Since this was your first meeting, you do not know if this will be an ongoing problem or was simply a one time deal. Give your den leader the benefit of the doubt. First you need to get together with your den leader & lay out a plan of action for your den. Your 3 other Tiger Teams need to get signed up to lead meetings. After each meeting, the leaders, & the Tiger Team in charge of that meeting, should talk about what went well & what didn't. This will help to improve your meetings & cut down on the surprise activities, but keep in mind that as leaders, you should always have a spare "bag 'o tricks" that you can pull something out of if it is needed. If the meetings are to be at your house, then you are well within your rights to set limits. Let everyone know the house rules for tag-a-longs up front. Maybe you could designate a corner of the rec room for sibs. Have the parents provide toys or an activity for their child. Do any of the Teams have an older child that would be willing to come & watch the tag-a-longs? It might also help if you included them in the opening/closing ceremony, games & songs. Finally, both of you need to take training ASAP. It might even be better if you could take it together. That way you might learn to work together better.

While Family Involvement is a big part of Cub Scouts, as a rule, non-scout siblings are not allowed at council or district camping events. There is no program to cover the siblings, so as a result they are doing activities that are either to old, or to young for them. There could also be an insurance problem. Council Sponsored Family Camps are another thing altogether. In that situation, programing is supplied for the entire family, siblings included. Some Day Camps & council events also will supply babysitting or a sibling area for the event. That is fine. My council does not provide program for sibs at Day Camps, Parent/Pal weekends, Cub Fun Days, Scout Klondikes or Camporees. Because of this, & unspecified insurance issues, only registered Scout youths are allowed at these events. Diver66, if you feel being a staff member would put an unnecessary burden on your family, perhaps you should consider not being on staff for programs that your scout will be attending. Or, you could just remind your younger son that there are rules, and a time, for everything & his turn to be a Cub Scout will be coming in a year or 2.

Bullying, in any shape or form, is NOT allowed in the BSA. If you know who your Charter Org Rep is, I would contact him to be at the meeting tonight too (or the head of your Charter Org if the COR is not available/helpful). If this boy has actually touched your son (& even if he has not) there might definately be some youth protection issues here. Let them know tonight that you are not adverse to reporting things to the council Scout Executive (per YP guidelines) if this does not stop.

Of course discipline is allowed in Scouting. I would NOT recommend telling a parent her child needs a spanking, but telling another Troops girls to stop running & jumping is not wrong. Contact your GS council & talk to your area rep. Let them know what is going on. Your SUC sounds like a nut job to me.

Webelos DO camp with Boy Scouts. What Webelos do NOT do is participate in BOY Scout programing. Webelos are CUB Scouts NOT BOY Scouts. When Webelos are participating in an activity with Boy Scouts, the programing should be at the Cub Scout level. All Youth Protection, Guide to Safe Scouting & Age Appropriate Activities guidelines for Webelos CUB Scouts should be followed. This is why BSA's rules state that Webelos are allowed to visit, but are not allowed to camp at, or participate in, a Boy Scout Camporee. A Boy Scout Camporee is set up specificaly for BOY Scouts. The programing is BOY Scosut programing not CUB Scout. It sounds like both your former council, & your current council, do indeed follow the BSA rules on Webelos / Boy Scout camping. They just do it a bit differently. Your former council basically had a Webelosree along with the Camporee. The Webelos had their own camping area & program. Your new council does not have any Webelos programing at their Boy Scout Camporee so they do not allow Webelos to camp, just to visit. To complete Outdoorsman requirement #4, a council/district event is NOT required. In fact, a boy could earn Outdoorsman & his AOL without ever participating in a Webelos / Boy Scout campout at all. Camping is only one option. Many times a local Boy Scout Troop will invite a Webelos den(s) on a campout, or other activity, with them. The activities the Troop puts together for this event should follow all CUB SCOUT guidelines. Very often a Webelos den leader will also contact local SM's and ask the Troop to put together an activity (campout or other) for their Webelos to do with the SM's Boy Scouts.

They can work on Tiger requirements & electives now. However they can not RECEIVE any of their Tiger rank achievement beads until AFTER they RECEIVE their BOBCAT rank award. They also can not RECEIVE any of their elective Tiger Tracks until AFTER they RECEIVE their TIGER rank award. What this generally means is that everyone signs off in the book when things get finished & you keep track of what the boys have done in your records. At the Pack meeting they receive their Bobcat award, AFTER their Bobcats have been presented, you then present them with all of the Tiger achievement beads they have earned to date. The same happens at the Pack meeting they receive their Tiger rank award (usually Blue & Gold in Feb is a good time to shoot for those to be finished). Right after the Tiger rank is awarded, you award the boys with whatever Tiger Tracks they have earned up to that point. BTW - WELCOME Christy!! The GS program is WAY different from Cub Scouts, which is WAY different from Boy Scouts. Bring your knowledge of running meetings, songs, games, booth sales, etc. Try NOT to bring your knowledge of GSUSA rules & regs & ways of doing things. Your frustration level will go way down if you can accomplish this. My daughter is 3 years ahead of my son, so I too had to reconcile looking at BSA thru GSUSA eyes! Have FUN! or, as we say in Cub Scouts - KISMIF - Keep It Simple Make It Fun!!

I will usually call the meeting to order & coordinate the opening flag ceremony & the closing living circle. The Tiger Team signed up to do the meeting runs everything else. The Team decides if they want to do a den activity or an outing. It is their choice. I do encourage them to do rank achievements first. The Teams are not out there on their own. I talk to them beforehand to help them sort out what they are doing. I give them all copies of the Cub Program Helps. I am at the meeting & help them however I can. I also have some alternate activities on hand in case they are needed. We kind of start out slow. Traditionally I will run the first few meetings until they feel more comfortable. This year, we are concentrating more on the Bobcat stuff first. Have a den calendar & a list of Tiger Teams with contact info for each Team. Have every Team sign up on the calendar to run at LEAST 1 meeting. The Teams can also help out by bringing the supplies for their meetings & bringing some general supply stuff. You will also be working on things for your Pack meetings. Be sure to involve all of your Teams in those things too. The more they get involved & do, the more they will become integral parts of the Pack & Scouting! KISMIF!!

The "time out' was a good idea, but you should seriously consider what it is these boys are telling you. You have 1/4 of your scouts telling you, every meeting, that the meetings are BORING. Consider the possibility they could be right. Have a get together with your PLC directly after your next meeting and discuss what went well & how meetings could be improved.

Aside from Scoutstuff.org, many council shops will ship orders out. Call your council's Scout Shop and talk to them. BTW - Most Pack's do not have the Den Leaders purchase awards. Webelos Activity Badges are restricted items & can not be purchased online or over the phone. They must be included on a Unit Advancement Report which must be turned in at your council Scout Shop. How do most folks find the time to get the the Scout Shop? We leave work early one evening. We take a vacation day & include it in the list of chores that need to get accomplished that day. We take advantage of the one day the Shop is open late. We go to the Shop on a Saturday. We go to a neighboring council's Scout Shop that has better hours or is closer to where we work/live. We order on the phone or from National Scoutstuff.

5 years is not new. What has caused him to take this stand now? Where is your Committee Chair & COR? Maybe this is coming to a head now because this is the first time he has had to sign an application. If, in past years, you had an active Charter Org Rep who signed all of the applications, your Pastor might never have even been aware that he was responsible for approving/selecting leaders.

Was this a Webelos den campout, or was the rest of the Pack there too? Either way, it sounds like bad planning to me. How are the weekly den meetings? Has your son earned his Bobcat or any of his Activity Pins yet? Are the meetings any more organized than the campout? Have you attended a Pack meeting yet? If so, was it fun? Was your son welcomed into the Pack? I would attend the next few den meetings with your son. Just to sit back & observe & see how they do things. It might take the boys a bit to warm up & you could see how your son was fitting in. If the den meetings are as bad as the campout, that could mean trouble. If that is the case, talk to the den leader about your concerns. Not all Packs, or Webelos dens, are created equal. Good friends of mine put their son into our Pack in 4th grade also. Their son did not go to school with any of the boys. They are Lutheran, our Pack is chartered by a Catholic Church. Their son also has some behavioral issues (ADHD +). The dad was not really expecting a positive experience, so he decided to attend with his son. I don't know who had more fun, Dad or son! They are now in our Boy Scout Troop & doing great! If things do not improve quickly (1-2 weeks) look into moving to a new Pack with better Webelos leadership.

Congratulations on signing up that many Tiger Teams! If you KISMIF & use the Tiger program, you should have a G-R-R-E-A-T year! Keep those Teams involved & you should have little or no drop out! You might think about scoping out the Tiger adults this year for those with leader potential. If you have 20-24 Wolf Scouts next year you should consider spliting into multiple dens. BTW - I have 13 Teams Teams and growing! Much better than just 4 that I had last year!

Has your CC & COR recruited enough adult volunteers to cover all of the positions needed for those 21 boys? You say this person is "former" leader, isn't he leading his den this year? Is he still a registered volunteer? What is his position in the Pack? Your husband, the CM, should talk to your CC & COR. Providing leadership is their responsibility.

I tell people the who complain about the price of BSA popcorn the same thing I tell people who complain about $4 for a box of 10 GSUSA cookies - You are not selling popcorn/cookies - you are selling SCOUTING. By purchasing the products you are supporting the scout council, the scout unit & the scout selling the product. If people wish to simply make a donation to the unit, that is fine. I will also give them the info on how to make a donation to the council. Yes, popcorn is expensive. Yes, depending on the area, it can be hard to sell. One thing I have noticed in the 11 years I have sold BSA popcorn, once people know we sell it, why we sell it, & have tried it, many people will look forward to it each year. We have TONS of kids in our neighborhood. They sell for school, sports & scouts. So do mine. Yet, if a kid comes to my door I will make a point to buy SOMETHING from them. Even if it is the cheapest thing on their list. Even if I am selling the SAME thing! Why? Because I know how hard it is on the kids to get out there & do it, so I will help any that take the time & effort to ring my bell. There are boys in my area who were in scouts & who sold popcorn. In the 15 years I have lived in my house, only ONE (1) boy ever came to the door. I purchased popcorn from him & looked for him the following year, but he had stopped selling popcorn. When I asked his mom, she said selling was to much trouble & the popcorn was to expensive. So I purchased my corn from the grocery. It was cheaper, but somehow it just never tasted the same!

"I don't know if I used the "2 Deep" terminology correctly. I think, however, that one parent should not have the boys alone for a Den meeting, correct??" Actually, this is NOT National policy. This is individual UNIT policy ONLY (& not a bad one IMHO). Youth Protection & the Guide to Safe Scouting, state that there must be 2-deep leadership for all OUTINGS. The general, everyday guideline is that there should be no 1-on-1 contact between an adult & a youth other than your own son. At 13 boys, you could use at LEAST 1 other adult. Ideally, you should have split the den into 2 dens, each with a DL & ADL. With 4 boys, 1 adult is plenty, but 2 would be great. BTW - the S'mores incident - Many people have a REAL problem with young boys flinging flaming chunks of marshmallows onto other people or into the surrounding environment. The dessert has been banned from numerous units that I know of. Perhaps your leader is one of the NO flaming chunks allowed variety (in that case he should have provided for an alt dessert).

Actually Youth Protection IS REQUIRED. On the last couple versions of the Adult Volunteer Application (including the brand new one) - Youth Protection Training All volunteers are expected to complete Youth Protection training. It is available online on the Web site http://olc.scouting.org and each local council provides training to leaders on a regular basis throughout the year. As a volunteer, you are expected to complete the training within 90 days of assuming a leadership position. Then on the back page of the application, it has a section titled - "What Makes a Trained Leader? (Check when completed)". The very first box to check off is for Youth Protection Guidelines. Fast Start is NOT in that list. However at the top under "Every Boy Deserves a Trained Leader", it states that you should start off with Fast Start "which presents a quick introduction to get new volunteers ready for your first meeting or activity."

What is the issue you are having?

To receive your "Trained" strip you need - Fast Start Youth Protection New Leaders Essentials Cub Leader Specific After this your council will give you your strip (you can not purchase it on your own). As has been said, OWL is not required, but it is highly suggested. As a brand new Cub Leader & a new Webelos Leader, I think that you should make a point of taking OWL also. It will be invaluable to you for the outdoor Activity Pins & getting your den out camping on their own. A Webelos is a unique critter & you should get as much training about them as possible!

I agree, you need to get one of the complaining parents to step up as Den Leader. Good Luck One other thought, perhaps you, as CC, or your CM should contact all families who drop out to see why they are leaving. If you had done this the last 2 years, this problem could have been avoided.

Why aren't you going with your den & Nephew? Just because you don't have a Cub does not matter. You are still a member of the Pack & the den! Your Nephew does not need his "own personal adult". He does need his own tent, health form, permission slip & transportation. Is his den leader going? If his den leader is going, he should be the one who will be in charge of your Nephew. It might be a good idea if your Nephew contacted the den leader, and/or the BALOO leader in charge of the campout, to help plan what his role will be.

2nd Class - NO Camping MB - YES if sleeping in a tent Aside from your original question, it would do wonders for the self confidence of these boys (& the future of the Den Chief program in your Troop & Pack) if the Pack & Troop would acknowledge their contribution to the Pack's Family Camp. I know you have no control over the Pack, but it would be GREAT if at the next COH the boys could be presented a simple certificate thanking them for their efforts as role models for your future Troop members. One of the main reasons there are so few Den Chiefs is because few Troops will recognize their work. Many SM's feel there is no need for Den Chiefs at all & down-play (or badmouth) the whole program. BTW - It does NOT matter if the Tenderfoot is an official Den Chief or not. He is a Boy Scout who is giving service at a Cub Scout function. He is also a Boy Scout who is a potential new Den Chief. How many of those do you see?

Instead of waiting for the BOR to happen, & setting the boys up for failure, why not have a talk with the SM NOW. Find out his thoughts on the situation, why he signed them off on Scout Spirit, & let him know how you feel. It is entirely possible he discussed behaviour issues with these scouts at their SM conferences & was pleased with the responses. Hitting the boys & the other BOR members with this at the BOR is not right.