ScoutNut

He got a question "wrong" - at a SM conference? I did not think there were right and wrong questions at a SM conference. A SM conference is supposed to be - well, a conference, a talk, a discussion, a getting to know you chat. Not a question & answer period where the boy is supposed to "know his stuff".

Sometimes the problem is that the boys know each other to well. My son is ADHD and has had the attending impulse & inattention problems since grade school. Kids can be cruel at times & most of his peers in grade school were not very nice. As a result he was not overly fond of them. This made bonding as a patrol rather hard for him. There were other issues with the way the Troop was run too that did not help. What kept him in and active (although not so much with his Troop) was working with the Cubs as a Den Chief and with the Council & District on training & activities. He did not get along well with his Troop, but he liked working with the Council adults & younger boys. He also liked getting to know new boys his age from other Troops thru JLT (NYLT) & Summer Camp. He might not attend many Troop meetings & his SM considers him a failure because he will never make Eagle, but he has stayed in Scouts for 12 years, has learned a lot, has helped young boys grow, & has had fun. What more can you ask for? All boys are different. Some go in one direction, some in another. If we can get them to learn how to accept each other, differences & all, they will be ahead of the game. Team building exercises help, along with stressing proper Scout behavior & not letting them get away with some of the typical nasty kid behaviors. Other than that, simply encourage & support your Scouts & recognize them for the things they do.

Usually this works because the Webelos all take turns leading the flag ceremony each week in their den meeting, & possibly 1 or 2X at the Pack meeting level. Yet another reason I dislike the meet altogether senerio! However - Considering the way your meetings are held & the size of your dens, you do not have much of a choice. While you hold a central Pack flag ceremony at the beginning of each group Pack den meeting, perhaps your Webelos dens could also hold a mini flag ceremony just for their den. That would help give every boy the opportunity they need to lead a flag ceremony. Another idea is to have a committee of 2 to 4 boys work on the flag ceremony together. In this case it would not be the generic, carry the flag in, say the pledge, post the flags, type of ceremony. They would have to come up with something different (lots of different ideas on the Web for them to research) to all get credit for "leading" as a group.

"Thankfully, the new President of BSA, shares my vision" "My goal is to encourage the national folks in Irving to do what has just been suggested: do focus groups, review materials, handbooks, uniforms, etc. And based upon the recently letters from folks on the National Executive Committee I think the wheels are turning!" Sounds like lots of back patting to me. "This is a great video that shows scouting as many of us would like it to be." You mean to say that there are some of us who DON'T want to go to summer camp, do fun outdoor activities, or go on High Adventure trips? This video does NOT reflect some modern, hip vision of Scouting that only you, and perhaps an enlightened few like you, share. Many of the clips are from Boy Scout Summer Camps. Many others look like clips from videos shot of a Troop's camping & High Adventure activities. And, since this video is at least 2 years old, these boys have been doing these fun things for quite a bit longer than that. Way before you decided that this is "scouting as many of us would like it to be". "One young man visiting my office, after I showed him this, said to me last week, "Now if that is scouting, sign me up." Well, did you sign him up? Because that video IS Scouting. And if it is NOT Scouting in YOUR unit, that is NOT BSA's fault. That is YOUR fault for not delivering a quality program to the youth in YOUR unit. Simple, and what many of us have been saying all along - If EACH unit would concentrate on delivering the best possible BSA program to THEIR youth many of these problems would solve themselves. As to my son, I'm not sure what connection wearing a neckerchief has to do with a person's taste in music. Unless of course, you are wearing the necker over your ears! The music is fine. It is an ADVERTISING JINGLE. I think the jingle does it's job pretty good too. What it is NOT, by a LONG shot, is modern rock music for main stream boys. For that kind of music I'll stick to the theme music from the various CSI TV shows. Now there's main stream rock!

This video was created as a marketing tool, not a commercial. A commercial is a 30 or 60 second spot, this video is 2 min & 23 sec long. W-a-y to long to be a commercial unless it was cut to ribbons. It was NOT produced in response to Brian's Web site, as much as he would like to believe it was. The BSA Web site, The Scout Zone, has been around for 2 years. Way before Brian started trolling for arguments on various Scout forums. From what I understand, it is comprised of bits of training videos that are even OLDER than 2 years. Perhaps Eamonn could let us know under what circumstances, & when, his picture was taken. The Scout Zone is a GREAT site. It has a lot of info for prospective families. The video is nice & catchy. As a matter of fact it is rather like OTHER MARKETING EFFORTS by BSA in the last 15 years or so. SUPRISE! Trying to modernize Scouting is NOTHING NEW!!!! It is an ongoing process that CHANGES CONSTANTLY based on what BSA's marketing experts feel will, or won't, work. This is a nice video, & it might rev up Webelos a bit to actually give BS a try. Webelos leaders should ask at your local council for a copy of the CD. However, as upbeat as the music is, I would NOT call it "modern music that will reach many main stream boys". Get real! This is a marketing video Brian, with music by studio performers, NOT Good Charlotte! As a matter of fact, when I asked my Boy Scout son what he thought of it he stated - CORNY! NOT rad, modern, hip, or even anything he would be caught singing around a campfire! The Scout Zone is BSA's latest promotional vehicle. I feel they did a pretty good job on the Web site. I like it, but since it has not been pushed much by the councils, perhaps that means it has not drawn in the new members like they hoped. What BSA has started promoting with The Scout Zone is that it is useful for completing the new new First Class requirement because it has an e-card the boys can send to friends.

This sounds like an overblown, unnecessary accounting nightmare (for both sides) to me too. Why not simply give each unit a popcorn goal to aim for & give them an incentive if they reach it? The same thing could be done with FOS donations. This is what our council does. If your popcorn goal is reached you get an extra 3% commission. If your FOS goal is reached you get free rank patches. No muss - no fuss. This whole Fair Share thing is not mandatory so why force everyone to jump thru accounting hoops to figure out what's going on. I have a feeling that this is tied into the new Centennial Quality Award program. Part of that is to assure that all councils are financially stable.

I am sorry if anyone felt that I was flaming. That was not my intention. I assumed from the title of this thread - "Tiger Den shared leadership..How do I get them to volunteer?", that TigerDen 2 was asking how to implement Shared Leadership in their Tiger Den, not just how to get the parents to help with various tasks during the den meeting. I must also apologize. I do tend to get a bit irritated when folks say how terrible Tiger retention is and then go on to tell how they do not follow the BSA Tiger program. They just do not see how one could be affecting the other. I will NOT apologize about being passionate about Tigers however. I have been a Tiger den leader for the last 9 years, and each year, I have followed whatever the current Tiger program was. Following a Tiger program that took the BSA 14 years to get where they want it to be is NOT "goose-stepping in cadence". It is giving my Tigers & their families the best possible program I can. A program that I feel works very well. I am flexible, but I follow the rules. Shared Leadership is not simply a way to get volunteer help. Family Involvement is one of the Methods of Cub Scouting. Shared Leadership gives not only the Adult Partner a feel for how a den is run, but it gives the Tiger half of the Team a chance to do something with his Partner & to be the Top Tiger in charge. That is important. You will always have some boys who miss a lot of meetings. That is just the way of things. I have had boys who have been signed up for every activity under the sun, missed many of the regular den meetings, and STILL managed to put together a go-see-it or den meeting. Yes, there have been times when a Partner could not come to a meeting. Sometimes the other parent would come, sometimes they would have one of the other Tiger Partners stand in, & sometimes they simply stayed home for that meeting. A non-parent stand-in is ONLY used in an emergency. It is hard for a Tiger Partner to work with more than just his son. As for using a neighbor or family friend as a stand-in Partner - NO, NEVER. Especially a long term replacement. BSA states that if the Adult Partner is not a parent they must be fully registered & have a background check run. I will not be responsible for someone I do not know being with one of my Tigers. As I said, my Tiger families do NOT "goose-step in cadence". They follow the rules, work/play with their sons, & have FUN. Some are more committed than others, but that is OK too. In the last 9 years as a Tiger den leader, I have only lost 2 boys because their families felt Scouting was not for them. We also have 3 of my former Tigers back working with the Pack as Den Chiefs! I will "chill out" now. I have to pull together some food pyramid resources for my host Tiger Team running this weeks meeting!

"I question that BSA rules *REQUIRE* that adult partner must be in attendance for the Tiger cub to be able to be at a den meeting." From BSA National website - "Adult Partners The basic element of Tiger Cubs is the Tiger Cub-adult partner team. The adult may be a parent, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, or even a neighbor. The requirements are that the adult partner be 18 years of age or older, care about the boy, and be strongly committed to his well-being. The boy and his adult partner join Tiger Cubs together. They do all the family, den, and Go See It activities together. The adult partner is responsible for seeing that the boy is successful with his advancement in Tiger Cubs. Each boy-adult partner team assumes the responsibility of hosting one or more months of den meetings with the den leader. The host team and the den leader plan the meeting program and the location. Tiger Cub adult partners who wish to become registered leaders must complete an Adult Application and pay the appropriate adult fee prorated to the pack's charter renewal date." From the Tiger Cub Handbook, 2006 printing, page 5 - "The adult partner attends all den meetings, pack meetings, outings, and activities with the Tiger Cub," What more would you like to see in writing from the BSA? How much CLEARER would you like it? No, it is NOT spelled out in the Guide to Safe Scouting because it is NOT a SAFETY issue. It is a PROGRAM issue. I do not have a current issue of the Cub Scout Leader Book handy, but I would bet that it says pretty much the same thing that the other BSA sources do - a Tiger Adult Partner should attend all activities WITH his Tiger. They are a TEAM!! A TIGER TEAM! That is the way the PROGRAM is written! Yes, you CAN be flexible, but it should be the EXCEPTION not the rule. And, if you are making a one time exception for the Adult Partner, then you STILL need to have the Tiger responsible to some adult. Another Tiger Partner will do, but then you are reducing the experience for that Partner's Tiger son. That is why the EXCEPTIONS should be few & far between. And yes, you can be flexible with the leadership too, but if you let the families off the hook to much you are undermining the whole purpose of the Tiger Program. TigerDen2 - If the Adult Partners are there anyway, then HOW can they fairly say they have no time to run a meeting? How hard is it to call up the local fire dept & set up a tour? How hard is it to play "Tell It Like It Isn't" with the den? How hard is it to have the whole den say the Pledge of Allegiance? How hard is it to go outside, gather some leaves & make leaf rubbing's? How hard is it to get all of the Tigers to attend one of those soccer or basketball games that they are spending all of their spare time on? You know better than that. Also, you stated - "It's been kind of a social get together for the parents. That's going to change Thursday night. If they won't lead, they will be involved in the den meetings." They should have been involved in the den meetings all along! Every game, Promise, song, Law, craft, Sign, Handshake, whatever, should include the Adult Partners too. The Tiger & his Partner are a TEAM. They are BOTH experiencing Cub Scouts & Tiger Cubs, for the most part, for the first time, TOGETHER. Get everyone off their tukas & involved in the meeting activities. Make up a spreadsheet with the Tiger requirements & your den meeting dates listed. Require every TEAM to sign up for ONE meeting. They can decide if it is a "in the den" meeting or a "go-see-it" meeting, but it should cover 1 of the Tiger requirements. After they have all successfully completed ONE meeting - have them sign up for another. Before you know it all of the Tiger Rank requirements will be finished & you will be into electives. After 9 years of leading our Tiger Den, I must say, it ain't rocket science, it's FUN! Get those Teams involved & start having some FUN!!

According to BSA rules Tiger Cub Scouts HAVE to have a Tiger Adult Partner with them at ALL TIMES! On the BSA application, when the Tigers sign up with the Pack, there is a spot to signify who the Adult Partner is. This goes into Scoutnet & is a part of the Tigers registration. Without it a boy CAN NOT sign up as a Tiger! PLEASE - Do NOT comprimise the BSA Tiger Program. IT is there for a reason! As to how to get the families to buy into Shared Leadership - HEY - HELLO - They HAVE to be there anyway! They just want to get around doing any actual work. Don't make it optional. Let your families know that they are REQUIRED to run a week/month/whatever of meetings (depending on the number of families). The den & go-see-it requirements are pretty much laid out for them. If they need more help, YOU, the DEN LEADER, should be available to give them assistance. BSA National provides the current & next month's Program Helps online - http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/34304/index.jsp This should give them some help. You could also copy the entire years worth of Cub Scout Program Helps. You can purchase them yourself from your local Scout Shop. PS - Actually 8 Tiger Cubs is NOT a small den. It is average to large as den numbers go. BTW, Are you fully trained? It might help you if you were.

"The square knot is a BSA emblem and can only be awarded for those faiths on the list." Sorry, Ed, but unless you can post a specific quote that states that the square knot is for earning ONLY one of the BSA RECOGNIZED religious emblems, I must disagree with you. From what I can find in the Insignia Guide, this knot may be worn by any Scout or Scouter that completed a religious emblem program as a youth member. Not a "BSA APPROVED" religious emblem, but simply a religious emblem program. While the actual emblem itself is not allowed to be worn, as long as the religious program was completed while a youth member, the silver on purple square knot can be worn.

Just a little clarification - The religious programs are NOT BSA programs. They are programs created by the various religious institutions to help their youth gain a better understanding of their faith. The ONLY thing that BSA has to say in the whole matter is if they will allow the religious organization's award (usually a medal of some sort) to be worn on their official BSA uniform. If the Sikh religion already has some sort of youth award program that entails learning more about their religious values, then, by all means, boys in that religion should be encouraged to earn it. Even if the BSA does not recognize that particular award to be worn on the uniform. I did not see a program of that sort on any of the Sikh sites I looked at. That does not, however, mean there is none. It simply means that I could not find one. That is why I suggested that the family speak to their religious leader about this. There might be a Sikh program that he would know about (maybe even just a local one). Failing that, he might be able to direct them to a program (maybe even one approved by the BSA) that would be compatible with their religious beliefs. BTW - If a boy earns a religious award that has not been approved by the BSA, that means ONLY that they can not wear the AWARD itself on their uniform. However, they HAVE earned the religious award of their faith & are therefore eligible to be recognized for that effort by being presented with the BSA religious emblem knot.

You can find BSA's list of Religious Emblem programs here - http://www.scouting.org/awards/religious/awards/index.html I did not find one that is specific for Sikh. The closest I could see was the Hindu programs. You might suggest to the boy's parents that they speak to their religious leader to see if there is a Sikh program of some kind.

Many patch companies carry generic (no date) stock patches that do not require a minimum purchase. These companies usually have some kind of cold weather camping stock patch.

These patches are council based - NOT National recognitions.

In ALL Councils, in order to have a Local Tour Permit approved the following is required - If you are participating in any NATIONALLY conducted event than ALL REGISTERED adults who are participating must have completed BSA Youth Protection training. For any other kinds of events at LEAST 1 REGISTERED adult participating must have completed Youth Protection training. (The state of Texas licenses ALL Summer & Day Camps in the state. Texas now requires ALL adults, 18 and older, who are staffing, attending or visiting a Summer or Day Camp, to have a current (within 2 yrs) YPT card from a state approved YPT course. BSA's online YPT has been approved by the state of Texas for this purpose.) If you are a PACK doing a PACK OVERNIGHTER, you must have 1 adult who has completed BALOO training attending the overnighter. The trained adult's name, age & date of BALOO training is required on the permit. If you are doing SWIMMING then a Safe Swim Defense trained adult must attend. The trained adult's name, age & date of Safe Swim Defense training is required on the permit. If you are doing BOATING then a Safe Swim Defense & a Safety Afloat trained adult must attend. The trained adult's name, age & date of training is required on the permit. You must also have 1 adult who is CPR trained attending. The CPR trained adult's name, age, name of agency which provided the training & date training expires is required on the permit. If you are doing CLIMBING/RAPPELLING then a Climb on Safely trained adult must attend. A requirement of that training is that someone in the group attending the activity must be certified in American Red Cross Standard First Aid and CPR & have taken First Aid-When Help is Delayed. The trained adult's name, age & date of the Climb on Safely training is required on the permit. You must also have 1 adult who is CPR trained attending. The CPR trained adult's name, age, name of agency which provided the training & date training expires is required on the permit. These are the ONLY trainings REQUIRED by NATIONAL to obtain a Local Tour Permit. OWL (Webelos leader outdoor training) & IOLS (SM Outdoor training (North Star)) are NOT REQUIRED by National to take Webelos dens or Boy Scout Troops camping. Your INDIVIDUAL COUNCIL might require more training, however I have never seen any examples of this. If your Council REQUIRES additional training (New Leader Essentials, Leader Specific, etc) to receive a Local Tour Permit, please post a link to it so that I can take a look. Thanks!

Having an older Scout or Den Chief mentor a young, brand new Den Chief IS a good idea. My son does that with the new Den Chiefs. What is NOT a good idea is to have 2 or 3 brand new Den Chiefs, who all went to the same training TOGETHER, be Den Chiefs for the SAME den. They should NOT "mentor" each other. They should NOT be den Chief for a den that does not NEED them, simply because their parents know that Den Leader.

"The mom had asked at the beginning of the year, as a favor, if one of our leaders would watch her son since she was a leader. The other leader agreed to keep an eye on him for the meetings." I am a bit confused. What difference does it make that she is a leader? I have had a few den leaders who were also Tiger Partners. Our CM was even Tiger Partner for a few of his sons. They all managed to attend Tiger meetings & other activities with their Tiger, along with their other duties. Do all of your dens meet at the same time & place? If so, then she needs to think about finding a different time for her Webelos to meet (& NOT during a Pack meeting! SHEESH!). You need to have a talk with your other Tiger leader & this mom & let her know that she needs to step up to her commitment with her Tiger son. Be firm & do NOT let her use you as a babysitting service. Tigers MUST have an Adult Partner present - period.

The first question that comes to mind is who & where is his Tiger Partner? "i know mom is not involved with him, and he has had 1 meeting where he had an adult partner (boyfriend of the mom). it seems to me that he might have a better attitude if he had someone there with him," If mom signed on as the adult partner then she should be at his side at EVERY activity, den & Pack. If boyfriend is signed on as the adult partner then he should be a registered, background checked, member of the BSA and at this boys side at EVERY activity, den & Pack. As a Tiger, his partner is supposed to be with him, working with him, disciplining him, playing with him, leading the den with him, at ALL times. If he comes to a Tiger den meeting without his partner, send him home. Do NOT allow him to stay at your den meeting on his own. At Pack meetings make sure his mom is with him. Even if it means sitting the Webelos next to the Tigers so she can do both things. If, at Pack meetings, he starts being disruptive or mean, calmly let him know that is not how a Scout behaves & take him to his Tiger Partner & let the partner know what he has been up to. You are not his partner, parent, or babysitter. Let his mother know that.

Unless the dens are really large, where you would need that extra leader, I would say no pairing up of Den Chiefs. The position is a leadership & learning one. If you have 2 boys together in a smaller den, the opportunities for true leadership are small & the opportunities for the 2 boys goofing off are large! Also, the Pack & another den are losing out. If the boys are trained they do not need a Den Chief mentor. Spread the wealth where it is needed by the Pack, not where it is convenient for the Scout's parents.

Maybe it's just at our Scout Shop, but we cannot purchase a trained strip over the counter. It must be given to you by the council course director when you when you have completed the required course(s). BTW, my son wears his trained patch from DC training because he is in his 7th (& last) year of being an active Den Chief.

My son wears his "trained" strip from Den Chief training & I seem to remember him receiving another when he finished NYLT (actually the former JLT course).

True Pete, however since she was asking about Tigers camping she is not in an LDS unit. LDS Packs do not have Tiger dens.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Tiger Cub Scouts!! Since you do not want to look on E-Bay for a replacement Philmont patch, the only thing I can recommend is to contact Philmont directly and ask them. The contact info : http://www.scouting.org/philmont/about/contact/index.html Remember that this would be considered a TEMPORARY insignia ONLY, and worn centered on the right pocket. Good Luck!

You said this family is Buddhist & opposed to any kind of violence. The boy is in 5th grade, has there ever been any other incidents, of any kind, with this boy? If there has never been any other problems, & with the family history of non-violence, I would say that there is a strong chance there is something else going on with this boy that is causing him to act out in a fashion that he KNOWS will attract the immediate, & shocked, attention of his family. Request an immediate meeting with the boy & his family. Have them bring the knife & the Whittlin' Chip card. Impound both. Talk to them & see if they have any idea why he acted in this manner. Let the parents know that the problems of bullying, conflict resolution & scout-like behavior will be addressed at both a den & Pack level ASAP. Remind the parents that they are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their son & that one of them will be expected to attend future outings with him. Hopefully this will resolve whatever problems this boy is having. I would not ban him from den meetings. As a 5th grade Webelos, if he stays away from meetings for a month, especially at this time of the year, there is a good probability he will never come back, as a Cub or Scout. You want to help this boy & encourage him to be a good scout, not loose him completely. As for the knife & card, I would make sure he (& the whole den) went over knife safety a couple of times in the next few months. Then, at crossover, I would return them to him for his future, safe, use as a Boy Scout.

There is no official BSA patch for either BALOO or Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders training. Upon completion of either course the participants receive a certificate & a training card. If your BALOO trained leaders receive a patch it is something given by your local council only. Give your council office a call and ask them about a patch for taking OWL training.