ScoutNut

BTW - I am the one in our Pack who usually finds out about interesting events or opportunities in the area. Our Committee has learned to ask me, sometimes with much eye rolling , if I have anything to share!

Has your CC been trained? That would help things along. What kind of Committee Members do you have? Do you have a Secretary? The Secretary, along with input from the CC, should be putting together the meeting agenda. An Outings Chair Committee Member would be the one who event notices go to & who would be responsible for things like sending in event registration & getting Tour Permits. Folks don't just generally walk up to the CC or CM and volunteer for these positions. Making blanket "we need volunteers" speeches rarely works. Your CC should be asking individuals, one-on-one, to do a needed job. When making a face to face request of a specific person about a specific job you get better results. You need to have a face to face talk of your own with your CC to straighten out both your, & her, issues. A Committee & the Packs den leaders should work TOGETHER as a TEAM. If you do not have enough Committee Members to have an Outings Chair then I do not see a problem with everyone working together on activities. If you hear of an interesting opportunity (at Rdtbl or where ever) for the boys, get the info, make enough copies for all the leaders & Committee Members & present it at your Committee Meeting (there should be time for additional questions/issues to be addressed, maybe at the end of the meeting). Find out if anyone is interested. If you all decide to make it a Pack thing, & one of the volunteers present would like to be the point person for that specific event then great! The leaders are responsible for distributing the info to their boys and forwarding registrations to the Point Person. If there is minimal interest, or no Point Person, then leave it as a Den or individual event. The leaders are still responsible for distributing the event info to their Dens. If they decide to make it a Den event, then the Den Leader is responsible for the follow up & registrations. If they do not want to do the event as a Den, the families still have the info & can attend if they wish, but it is up to the individual families to contact whoever is running the event to sign up. If the Den Leaders are to lazy to even present the info to their boys, then they have no one to blame but themselves if their families find out about it after the fact & are upset that they were not informed. Once the info has been presented to the families, the ball is in their court to contact the appropriate person. I can see a few Pack wide reminders, but to expect ANYONE to personally chase after each & every family in the Pack is nuts.

I would like to make my pitch here. I know that you said that you feel Pack leadership should come from within the Pack, & I certainly agree. However, if Cub Scouting is where you would really like to put your efforts, there is one position tht always get the short end of the deal. Tiger Den Leader. Typically, you have a CM and/or CC who are trying to sign up as many 1st grade boys as possible, but they have a big problem. They need at least one of those uncertain, confused, unknowledgeable, parents to sign up as the den leader or, no matter how many boys want to register, there will be no den. This is NOT good, and many Tigers have been lost because parents were just plain gun-shy about being asked to lead. Having a Tiger Den Leader already in place, who is experienced in Cub Scouting, is a great benefit to a Pack. Having one who knows the Pack, it's people & ways, is an even greater benefit. As the year progresses, the Tiger Leader gets to see the parents in action via Shared Leadership & gets to know the families. The families get a chance to understand the program & get "hooked on Scouting". By March or April (when your council starts offering Spring training!) the Tiger Leader has a pretty good idea which of the parents would make good Den Leaders for the following years. In May/June, when the boys graduate to Wolf Scouts, their new Den Leaders can be introduced. I have been the Tiger Den Leader for our Pack for 9 years now & I LOVE it! Every boy in the Pack, except those who joined after Tigers, has been thru my den. I know them & their families. I have gotten to see them learn, grow, move on up to Boy Scouts & come back as Den Chiefs! I have also been able to be mentor to a bunch of GREAT Den Leaders.

While councils SHOULD offer BALOO (if they want their Cubs camping!), there might be circumstances that you know nothing of that are affecting that. There are 2 major reasons why my council cancels training. 1) No participants, or not enough to make it feasible cost wise. 2) Not enough staff. You can't get trained if there is no one to do the training. BTW - a council's training does not have to be within its boundaries. We do our BALOO training at one of our council camps which is outside our council boundaries (about .75-1.5 hrs from most of our council areas). Since BALOO is better done in a real camping situation, many councils do the same. We quite often get folks from other councils attending our BALOO training. Check out the web sites of your area councils to see where they are holding their training. It just might be closer than you think!

I think that Lisabob has the best answer - turn it into a day only event, with no overnight. BTW - The BALOO trained person is not just a figurehead whose body is only required to simply show up. He/she should be the one in charge of the overnighter.

No, GSUSA does not use square knots, or anything similar. What you could do is wear your GS Gold Award pin centered on your right pocket.

"What does a Lion Cub do as opposed to a Tiger?" Here is a link to info on Learning for Life's Seekers program. At the bottom of the page you can find a sample lesson plan. http://www.learningforlife.org/nav/seekers/index.html As this is already a program in use by LFL, I doubt that this would be the program if a K-Cub level ever becomes official.

Your friend's knot is a private, specially made recognition. It is not connected to, or recognized by, BSA in any way. The Girl Scout Gold Award (Golden Eaglet of Merit, Golden Eagle, First Class, Curved Bar) is a Girl Scout award. Even though it is still Scouting, the BSA does not recognize awards earned thru other organizations, only those earned thru BSA. The only exception to this would be the Religious Emblem knot.

"A Webelos Scout can go camping without a parent/guardian as long as he is under the supervision of at least 2 registered scout leaders that are youth protection trained." Actually - No The "2 registered scout leaders" are there for the 2-deep rule and have NOTHING to do with the supervision of 1 Webelos scout. If the Webelos parents can not attend the Webelos MUST be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. That does NOT mean that all of the parents, of all of the boys, can designate the 2 leaders as their "parent approved" adults. This is Cub Scouts NOT Boy Scouts and Webelos MUST have a parent with them if at all possible. "Bears can go camping as long as Daddy or Mommy is there. We do this all the time in our Pack." You can call your DEN camping trips whatever you like, that does not make them PACK camping. For it to be a PACK overnighter, the ENTIRE Pack must be involved. Having your Bear den attend with a parent does NOT make it a PACK trip and calling it one to fool your council into approving a Tour Permit is not right.

Bears - Webelos campout??? This is not a BSA allowed activity. Bears are NOT allowed to do den camping, only Webelos dens can do that. From the current "Guide to Safe Scouting" - "Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America." It is the WHOLE Pack or just the Webelos. Although I suppose if you called it a Pack family campout, even though it is NOT, you could get your Tour Permit past your council. What are you doing about a BALOO trained adult? As for your Webelos, there is no reason why he has/can not attend a camping trip. Also from the current "Guide to Safe Scouting" - "A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult." and "In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult." There is no stipulation that it can not be a leader. However, leaders (especially the leaders in charge of the campout) will usually be way to busy running the campout & dealing with their OWN son(s) to be in charge of another's child. If the parents of your Webelos would get together with the parents of another Webelos who is attending and have them agree to be responsible for their son the boy could go on camping trips. However - Also from the "Guide to Safe Scouting" - "Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities." "Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping facility." "Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four youth. A minimum of one of the adults is required to be youth-protection trained. Adults must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as a temporary blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing area separated from the youth area." "When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian."

I think that the co-ed trial is a bit strange. Actually, I think the whole thing is a bit strange. It is, mainly, being done under the Learning For Life umbrella. LFL, being school based, has always had kindergarten youth, both boys & girls. I am not sure how this will tell National if there is a market for Kindergarten Cubs when there are already Seekers out there in the LFL program. Perhaps just because they are taking it out of the hands of the school? I don't know how much interaction there is with Packs & even if the K's are affiliated with specific Packs. It certainly will make Pack/district/council activities more difficult. What 5th grader is going to want to do activities with a kindergartener? How do you run relay races? Do you change the whole Pack concept around to have 3 Mini-Packs (K-1, 2-3, 4-5)? Yes, the GSUSA has a K-Daisy program, but GSUSA is set up completely different than BSA. Each age group (Daisy, Brownie, Junior, Senior) has it's own Troop, which is basically an independent entity. There is no Pack. They do not have to plan activities that must keep the interest of everyone between the ages 5 - 11. The co-ed trial is going to be REALLY interesting. If the Lion groups are attached to specific Packs, are attending Pack meetings & events, & are included in district/council events & camps, what happens to those girls at the end of the year? Currently they can NOT become Tigers. Do you tell them, so sorry, you are no longer welcome here? Do you send them back to regular LFL? I suppose, with girls already registered as Seekers, that it gives those districts incentive to start LFL groups in their schools. I don't know about the families involved, but I would have a real problem with signing my daughter up for a one year only program that had no future. I just don't see this as an effort to improve the Cub program. I see it as an effort to increase the head count. Oh well. All we can do is wait and see what happens.

A boy can be a Webelos scout until he completes 5th grade or turns 11.5, which ever is later. Webelos do not "age out" of Cubs on their 11th birthday. Your son has plenty of time to earn his AOL.

"I am really starting to wonder where the "magic" is in achieving Eagle." I think the important word here is ACHIEVING. I think it is also important to remember that it is the BOYS achievement. "Is Eagle not perceived by the boys (and their parents) to be the high achievement we adults consider it to be? You would think that there would be excitement and enthusiasm about having an ECOH. That seems not to be the case." Is the importance of earning Eagle tied to how fast they hold a party to announce it to the world? As KC asked, who is the ECOH for? For the Troop, SM & parents to show off their nice, shiny, new Eagle? In many cases, it seems that is the answer. If these boys did not think that earning the rank of Eagle was important, they would not have earned it. They did earn it. They spent 12 years working toward it. Their reasons for earning it have no bearing on the fact that they DID earn Eagle. At 18 there is a LOT going on in a young man's life. More than at almost any other time. They have work, sports, college applications, college visits, keeping their school grades up for that all important last transcript to college, finals, HS graduation, working all summer to save for college books & expenses, preparing to move away from home for the very first time, & Scouts. Is it any wonder some boys don't see the importance in hurrying to plan an ECOH? Then there are some that just might not be interested in the hoopla. The ACHIEVING of Eagle was the important thing for them. Maybe your son does not want a ECOH. My daughter and 3 other girls in her Girl Scout Troop earned the Girl Scout Gold Award (GS version of Eagle) in their last year of high school. Three of the four girls, my daughter included, refused to attend the council's Gold Award recognition. They were busy with their last few rushed months of high school & felt that the accomplishment of earning the award was enough & did not see the need to get up in front of a crowd to announce it. Was I disappointed? Definitely! I was proud of the girls and I wanted the world to see what great young women they were. I felt they should want to be acknowledged in front of their peers. I felt they should want to show everyone what they had done. Do you see the pattern there? I felt, I wanted. Not they felt, or they wanted. Be happy & proud for the boys. Stop prodding your son. If they want a ECOH it will happen sooner or later. It really is not all that important. What IS important is the BOYS and what they have accomplished.

One question I have not seen here. If this man is so unstable, and verbally abuses (and terrifies) adults and scouts alke, what about his own son? Has anyone seen any signs of abuse in his son? Has anyone looked? You should consider checking out BSA's online YP training to see what your state's requirements are. I would at the very least mention this to your council's SE.

NeilLup said: "Not to be too confusing, but there is no requirement at all that a boy be 10.5 to earn the AOL " Actually there is. If a boy who is still in the 4th grade wants to earn the AOL BEFORE completing the 4th grade, he has to be active in his Webelos den for at least 6 months since becoming 10 years old. That would mean that he MUST be 10.5 years old to earn his AOL.

The rules are not "National". They are mostly up to the individual Pack, but most follow the rule sheet in the PWD box. If your District runs a District/Council PWD, then their rules are the ones the Packs will go by. If you do not have District/Council PWD rules, then you should ask your PWD Chair your question. Most Packs I know of (mine included) do not allow solid axles or the wheels to be moved. This is done to insure fairness, that everyone is on as uniform a base as possible.

Troop Committee Challenge training is now online at BSA Online Learning Center - http://olc.scouting.org/info/tcc.html I have not gone thru it yet so I am not sure how well done it is.

It depends on what your theme will be. It will not help to suggest paper plam trees for the "Aloha" theme if you are going with a Pirate theme! One thing we do is have each den make 2 or 3 table centerpieces based on what our theme is. That helps a lot and gets the boys involved.

MarkS - Boy Scouts should be recognized ASAP, just like Cub Scouts. There is no reason to wait until a COH. When a boy passes his BOR for rank he can be given his Pocket Certificate at the next week's Troop meeting. No need to wait for 3 months! At the COH he can be given his rank patch. Recognizing accomplishments ASAP helps to keep the boys motivated & interested.

oldman - Remind these new Troop parents that their boys are no longer Cub Scouts & that the Boy Scout program is VERY different from Cub Scouts. Advancement is NOT the purpose of Boy Scouting. Attaining the rank of Eagle, while a wonderful goal, is NOT the aim of the Boy Scout program. Advancement is simply ONE of EIGHT Methods used to achieve the real Aims of the Boy Scout program (Character Development, Citizenship Training & Personal Fitness). Boys will mature and advance at their OWN rate. Giving them needed oportunities & encouraging them works well. There is no need to rush or push.

If you read BSA liturature you will see that one of its RULES (NOT just an opinion or policy) is that you can only work in ONE program at a time. That means that the things done for the Cub Scout program do NOT count towards Boy Scout advancement. It is not up to the SM's opinion. It can NOT be done. You are telling me that if a 4th grade Webelos did his Webelos Physical Fitness Activity Pin is should be counted as a Boy Scout advancement requirement?? Where do you draw the line then. Why not count Cub Pack camping done as a Wolf & Bear towards Boy Scout nights camping? Why not count every meal cooked as a Cub Scout? The programs are different for a reason. Things done as a Cub Scout are NOT age appropriate for a Boy Scout.

My council had an increase over last year in total youth of 2% and an increase in Tiger Cubs of 26%. All of whom seem to LOVE wearing neckers & singing silly songs!

Check out the website of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting. http://www.nccs-bsa.org/emblems-awards/rosaryPatch.php

"I also interpret this as being possible for a 4th grade 1st year Webelo to be barely 10 and upon gaining an AoL (which frankly sounds like the proverbial Eagle Factory of BSA, IMHO), can join a troop." Actually, not quite. The time requirement to earn AOL is - "Be active in your Webelos den for at least 6 months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old)" So, in order to earn AOL a 4th grader has to HAVE BEEN a Webelos for 6 months AFTER turning 10 years old. This means that if the 4th grade Webelos turned 10 in September, the earliest he could earn AOL, & cross to a BS Troop, would be in March. If the Webelos turned 10 in December, the earliest he could earn AOL & cross would be June. Also, if he turns 10 in June, at the end of 3rd grade, it would be possible to earn AOL as early as December. However, just to confuse you a bit, if the boy turns 10 in the summer after 3rd grade, but only joins Cub Scouts in September as a 4th grader, because he has to BE a Webelos for 6 months, the earliest he could earn AOL would be be March. Clear as mud? There is a format for earning the Webelos Badge & AOL in 1 year in the Webelos Leader book. This is not there so Packs can create "AOL mills". The 1 year program is an option for boys who, for whatever reason, only have 1 year left in Cubs & want to earn their AOL before they cross over to Boy Scouts. Some of these reasons can be a boy who joins in 5th grade, a boy who was held back in school & boys in the LDS program. The Latter Day Saints have adapted the BSA program to fit their churches youth program. The boys in LDS units move up to the next level on their birthday, not at the end of the school year. They start in Cubs when they turn 8 as a Wolf. On their 9th birthday they become a Bear, 10th b-day they become a Webelos & on their 11th b-day they become a Boy Scout. They are only a Webelos for 1 year. (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

Remember, Tigers & their parents are new to scouting (for the most part). They are both learning as they go. Simply talk to your Tiger Teams at the start of the year (or now!) about the purposes of Cub Scouting & it's Core Values. Explain that if you redo an elective it should be done in a different way. Explain that reading every day for school is great, but that the purpose of the electives is to try lots of different things, not just one. Also, as an FYI, Elective #14 is about the TIGER CUB learning to read. Having a parent read TO the boy is not fulfilling the requirement. The Tiger should be the one doing the reading to the adult. I would say it would be fine to have the Tiger read a short story from Boy's Life, a newspaper article, a short book, a magazine article, a fairy tale, etc. The Tiger should stretch himself & try to read different, harder, things. What I do is have the families write a little explaination of what they did by each elective. That way it is easier to keep track of what has been signed off on (if they have E#11 signed off because of Scouting for Food & that's all I can add other things I know the boy has participated in like bringing food for Thanksgiving Mass). Also, since there is not a whole lot of space in the book, it is kind of self limiting.