ScoutNut

It's not only a Leader discipline issue, although that is part of it. It would be nice to have all of our info in one place, organized, sorted & accurate. Accurate shopping list's and filled in advancement forms. Event, attendance, & training management. Easier communication with the entire Pack or just segments of it. I would like to know if these programs REALLY do help, or are we just as well off doing it the way we are now, with Excel spreadsheets, snail-mail fliers, e-mails & handwritten stuff. If they DO help, which ones work better, & do more. It also helps to hear about the Troop-side programs (thanks!) because, if whichever one we choose works well for the Pack, the Troop might be interested in getting it also. Please keep the comments coming!

Chasing down Den Leaders 2 days before the Pack meeting to get award lists is getting real old! The Pack has decided to go with one of the Unit tracking programs out there. The problem, of course, is deciding which one to use. I have found 4 that seem to be well thought out & versatile. There are 2 database centered, & 2 online centered. This is what I have discovered about them : The 2 database centered are Packmaster & Scoutmate. Both of these also have an FTP site for storing your database online and are compatible with BSA ScoutNet. Packmaster seems to be the oldest, with strong ties to BSA, and additional products to utilize (ie-sheets for printing out your own rank cards). Scoutmate looks like it is starting to put some of its updating ability online, as opposed to only on the database. For both of these, a CD with the program must be sent around to all of the unit's adults who will be using it, to have it downloaded on their computer. The 2 online centered are ScoutTrack & ScoutManage. Neither of these, as far as I can tell, are compatible with ScoutNet. Both of these have no CD to send around & no program to download. They are online programs that can be accessed from any computer with an internet connection. Both allow accessibility to be restricted to specific areas for different users. Both allow parents to "sign-off" online on any work done at home. ScoutTrack allows den leaders to mark, online, which achievements have/will be done in den meetings so parents can see what is planned. ScoutManage has a home page for each family with all of their info (youth & adult) in one place. ScoutManage also has the ability to have it's database downloaded to a computer and then uploaded again. I assume this is for portability so you can take the data with you and manage things like attendance and fees on the spot. All 4 programs have e-mail, calendar, event, permission slip, & financial (on 1 it is an added purchase) capability. I believe all also have the capability to include medical info. I must admit to rather liking the idea of the online services. No CD to schlep around & parents can sign in a virtual handbook with out running around town to drop off a book. Now, my questions to all of you are, do you use one of these programs? Do they deliver what they promise? How easy are they to use? What are any pluses and/or minuses you have found? Do they update their databases regularly and, more important, correctly, to reflect BSA changes? How is their customer service? Are there any other programs out there, besides one of these, that your unit uses? Any thoughts, comments, ideas, etc are VERY welcome!

In most Troops, run according to BSA policy, the final step before a BOR is convened is a SM conference. This is what BSA has to say about that in their "SCOUTMASTER CONFERENCE TRAINING" - "In the advancement conference, you will assess the Scout's readiness for his board of review and his progress since his last Scoutmaster conference. This should not be a time of retesting his competence in Scouting skills; someone has already attested to that. The Scout must have completed all of his requirements for rank before the conference can take place. It is appropriate to review the Scout's achievements and to discuss them without retesting. Of course, this may be the time for you to check his advancement record for the appropriate signatures." and "The board of review is the final step in the advancement. However, the members of the board of review are troop committee members who might not know the Scouts as well as the Scoutmaster. If a Scout's advancement is to be deferred, that should come at the Scoutmaster's conference. While the board of review is not a rubber stamp, the Scoutmaster should not approve the Scout at the Scoutmaster's conference and then expect the board of review to defer the Scout." Once again - this is during the SM Conference - not the BOR. "I do not recall a part where a scout has to be "neatly attired" or "ready to answer questions" either. Are you adding requirements? What if a scout is not neatly attired? What if he is not ready to answer questions?" From BSA's "BOARD OF REVIEW TRAINING" - "A board can expect a Scout to be neat in appearance and properly uniformed." I am sure there can be exceptions to this, but it seems to me to be good manners and if a scout showed up for his BOR in swim trunks, covered in mud (since we are obviously talking extremes here), as a BOR member I would certainly want to know why. Since a BOR uses questions to achieve it's purpose, if the boy refuses to answer any questions, obviously the BOR can not be completed and should be rescheduled for a time when the boy feels like he is able to speak to them. CNYScouter - Since the Ship is short on Committee Members, perhaps you could get some of the Committee members from your son's Troop to help out.

"I do not see why you are quoting the proper procedures for questions at a BOR. We all know them" Obviously not or this would not be an issue. "All I stated was that a Board of Review member should be given proof the requirements were complete. If you read the statement I did not say it had to be done in the form of a handbook." The BOR members do NOT need to be given ANY "proof". "So are you saying that a Scout can show up at a BOR without presenting proof that the requirements were complete?" Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. "That would be quite silly." No, it is not silly. It is part of the "proper procedures" for a BOR. It is NOT up to the SCOUT to present the BOR with any "PROOF". It is the Scouts responsibility to show up to his BOR, neatly attired, & ready to answer questions put to him. You know, those kinds of questions that "we all know" & "have been discussed many times before". "A Tenderfoot could just show up and tell a Board he is sitting for Life?" If the BOR members do not know the scouts in their unit, the Troop is not following BSA procedures, the scout is not living by the Scout Oath & Law, & the SM & Troop Advancement Chair are not doing their jobs, I suppose it might be remotely possible this could happen. Heck, there are all kinds of units out there running things their own way, doing all sorts of strange things. "What happens if they approve him?" Then the Troop has lots more problems than simply not understanding what a BOR does. "You seem to contradict yourself by saying the Boy should keep responsibility for his advancements and use the book as proof that stuff is done instead of having adults to this." No contradiction. If you would re-read my post I stated "The sign-offs etc are for the SCOUTS benefit." It is how THE SCOUT, NOT the BOR, keeps track of what he has accomplished & what he still needs to accomplish. The handbook helps keep the SCOUT organized and on the track the SCOUT has planned for HIMSELF.

"It seems a perfectly reasonable expecation to see some proof that the requirements were complete." Not at a BOR it is not. There is no BSA requirement that the Scout MUST present his Handbook to the BOR. From the BSA Board of Review Training - "This review is not and should not be an examination or retest of skills learned. Rather, it is an attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals, both in the troop and outside of it. The board should get a sense of the importance that the Scout attributes to Scouting in his home life, at school, and in the troop. It also shows how the Scout perceives the troop and its adult leaders." and "This can be accomplished by simple questions like "What did you cook for your First Class meal?" Questions like Where and When or How will soon tell the board whether achievements were properly accomplished without actually retesting. It is sufficient to know what a Scout's "camp gadget" was in order to understand whether he had been properly tested on his lashings." and - Possible questions for the Star & Life boards - "- What merit badges did you enjoy, and why? - What merit badges did you get the most out of, and why? - How did you fulfill your Swimming (or other merit badge) requirements? - How did you feel about your leadership position? - How did you feel about how you exercised that position? - Did you feel that you accomplished anything in that position? - What were your frustrations? - Who do you think is doing a good job in the troop? - Have you thought about achieving Eagle? - Have you thought about a service project for Eagle? - How do you fulfill your duty to God? To country?" As you can see, none of these things require seeing signatures in a book. If the BOR members are unsure of the requirements for a specific rank, they can provide their own copy of the handbook or print off something from one of the multiple websites out there on the subject & bring it along to the BOR for reference material. The handbook has a very specific place in the program for the boy. It supplies information and gives him a trail to follow. The sign-offs etc are for the SCOUTS benefit. How else is HE supposed to track where he is & what he still needs to accomplish? Why is this responsibility given entirely to the Troops adults in your area? How does that help the boys? Do they just float along waiting for the adults to tell them what they should do, when they should do it, & when they are finished?

No - No GSUSA hiking medallions. They are lucky to have mess kits.

Please - There is no such thing as "Class A's". Please start them out using the correct terminology. Make sure all of the den's leaders are completely trained. Maybe you could all go together. That way you could support each other and also benefit from shared questions/answers. Your agendas sound OK, however, if you are doing all of the work putting together the program for the den, what are the other 3 den leaders doing? With 4 leaders, working together, you should have a GREAT den. The key concept is to work together on everything. That includes putting together den programing. There is no real need to have only 1 "den leader", with everyone else considered simply an "assistant". You should work together. One could be the main committee liaison, one advancement, one outings, one dues and all sharing everything else. A den chief is a Boy Scout Position of Responsibility. You should contact your Cubmaster to see if any BS Troops have one available. Denner, is a Cub Scout youth leadership position and one (along with the Asst Denner) that I highly recommend. Have a den leader get together once a month/every other month, to plan the upcoming meetings & activities & to figure out who will be responsible for what/when. Don't forget to have someone attend your monthly Pack Committee meetings. BTW - Our 5th grade Webelos den has 3 leaders (9 boys) and our new Wolf den has 5 (12 boys - they wanted to stay together & with 5 leaders they always have the option to split if it gets overwhelming). They work together & have a great time & a great program.

You should have already started your training with Boy Scout Fast Start and Youth Protection. These, and more, can be found at the BSA Online Learning Center - http://olc.scouting.org/

As a Pack we do not always use the National themes. Sometimes we will switch themes, or use our own, it all depends on what we are doing for the month or what sounds good to us. Like your Pack, we have some events that we do each year. October is our Halloween party, December is our Christmas Pot-Luck dinner, January is PWD, & March is Showtime. These Pack meetings each have their own, built in theme. We also do other yearly scheduled Pack meetings that can have various themes. February's Blue & Gold, April's Cardboard Box Derby, & May's Graduation each use a different theme every year. Sometimes it is the National theme, sometimes it is different. This year our Box Derby theme was space and every den made a space vehicle of some sort. For Graduation we went with the bug theme & made paper cicadas, ate ants on a log & ticks on a toilet seat, & used a "cocoon" (my tent with 2 doors) for the boys to "evolve" to their next level. Our Dens run pretty independently. Sometimes the den leaders will do theme related activities, but it is up to them. Most of the rank activities are done at home so the den meetings are not 100% requirements. They work on some rank, some electives, some Pack meeting prep, & some other things. Every month a den is the host for the Pack meeting so that den must work on their flag ceremony, gathering activity, & coordinate snacks. Bottom line is we do not push theme usage on the dens.

You stated - "I believe that the SM will be gone in another year on his own accord." The best thing to do is to clarify that "I believe" part. Have an informal chat with your SM. Find out how things are going, how he feels the Troop is doing, and what his plans are for the future. If he is indeed planning on this being his last year, then you should start NOW to think about his replacement. Ask him his opinion on his ASM's. Are there any who your SM & you feel would do a good job as SM? Perhaps the SM would be willing to delegate some of his SM duties (summer camp?) to see how the potential replacements work with the boys. I would not act like you are kicking him out, but if he is planning to leave you should not wait until he is gone to start to look at replacements. The SM might like being in a mentor role. If might rekindle some enthusiasm.

Elective 23A is for ANY overnighter WITH your Pack. Elective 23F is for a Council run overnighter & does not have to be with the Pack. Although it specifies "Resident Camp", I would allow credit for Council run weekend camps too. These are the one night, parent/scout variety. Most of our Pack's scouts attend our councils summer weekend camps instead of the longer, more expensive, further away ones. Elective 23E is to attend Day Camp. The purpose is to get the boys outdoors, in different camping environments, and to experience both Council run & Pack run camps.

Lots of good ideas here - http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/5307/toc.html Some foil recipies - http://macscouter.com/Cooking/FoilCook.pdf http://www.djmorton.demon.co.uk/scouting/meals/foil.htm I have tasted the cupcake in an orange & it is not bad. The trick is to pick a flavor that is complemented by the orange. Something like a spice, carrot or apple mix.

Try looking here - http://www.usscouts.org/databases/camp/ocd.cgi There are quite a few listed for OK. Try neighboring states too.

Your LDS Ward OWNS your BSA Troop. They can make any requirements or changes they wish as long as it does not go against the BSA program. No, requiring your non-LDS Scouts to attend an LDS service is not right. So, do not require them to attend. They can take a walk or sit in their tents or say some prayers on their own. By joining an LDS Troop, you pretty much agree to abide by the LDS way of doing things.

Our Pack & the Girl Scout Troops from our parish school do a joint tree decorating around our church every December. We alternate sponsoring it every other year. The sponsoring group provides cookies, hot cocoa & seasonal music in the school/parish hall. When I a GS Troop, my co-leader & I both had the same problem. We would often bring along our younger sons. Although, since there were 2 of them, they did manage to entertain each other. I used to tease my son that he was a Brownie before he was a Tiger! For a Den/Troop outing, I would first ask the kids what they thought of the idea. If both the boys & girls are ok with it then go for it! Have the kids plan it, keeping in mind both the Guide to Safe Scouting and Safety Wise.

"The SafeRides program is owned by the Venturers" This is an incorrect statement. As noted in the portion of the article that was quoted by epalmer84, SafeRides itself IS a Venture Crew. The Crew is chartered by the school district and the Crew Advisors are paid as facility advisors. The problem came to light when a student wanted to JOIN the Venture Crew (SafeRides) & the student's parents had a problem with BSA's Declaration of Religious Principal. One solution is for the parent association at the school to take over the charter and for the 2 paid teachers to simply VOLUNTEER their time as Crew Advisors. Or, they could drop the Venture Crew and reorganize as an Explorer Post, although this might be tricky since Explorers are career based. Either way, I would think that the Council should have done a better job of advising their Units chartered to public agencies. Our Council helped all of their units chartered to schools and government bodies to find alternate charter partners a few years back. I am sure that their Venturing DE and the local council are helping the school district find a new charter organization for this group of wonderful, caring, young adults! Instead of spending our time bashing the BSA and degrading the great work done by these young men & women, we should be congratulating them for their foresight & community service & sending our hopes their way for a "Safe Ride" around this bump on their road!

Not sure why you classify the Troop Dad as "unqualified" and the other person as "qualified". Maybe a definition of your idea of qualified would help to clarify what you are looking for. Whoever you (CC or COR?) decide on, I would make it a requirement that they get fully trained within the first 3 months (depending on when your council offers training). Considering the fact that you stated your Troop is in a mess, I would also require that ALL leaders in the Troop get completely trained, including the Committee & the COR.

He may be demonstrating good patrol practices, but he is also demonstrating bad uniforming practices. There are no OFFICIAL BSA Adult Patrol patches. There are plenty of UNOFFICIAL badges of all sorts out there, including Adult Patrol Badges, however it is against BSA policy to wear these on the uniform.

I am on a Girl Scout site with folks from that council and also folks from the area where the camp is located. They were talking about it as well. It seems the camp already does bear & wildlife training, but kids being kids, seemed to think that there was no real need. After all, it can't happen to them! It seems the poor bear will be captured & hopefully relocated. I remember camping in the 'Porkies, in the UP, back BK(before kids!) and hearing these young backpackers complain about how a bear ripped up one of their tents (empty thank goodness) & scattered their food all over. They could not understand why it happened! Then we go into town & hear about how they had to put down a mother bear just the week before for mauling campers. Sheesh! When will folks learn to respect nature!

The Cubs pants are different from the BS pants because Cubs do different things. There are no bottom zippers on the Cub version because of the rate of growth in Cubs and the fact they often are in simple gym type shoes. Cubs also spend a big portion of their time skidding on their knees and so need heavier material. I doubt they will change the BS version any time soon. BTW - the zippers are for changing on the run, so to speak. On a backpacking/canoeing/high adventure trip there is usually no place available to undress or even simply to easily take off your hiking boots. The fact that sparks melt holes in the pants (boys/adults should NEVER be close enough to a fire to melt large portions of the pant), IMO does not offset the convenience of light weight & quick drying.

Maybe she should have just thrown the food in her tent at the bear! That girl, and the others in the tent, were VERY, VERY lucky. I understand the council is now making all campers sign a contract that they understand the rules and will not, under any circumstances, have any food in tents.

I have been involved in our District Day Camp for a number of years. It takes a LOT of work & planning, alternate planning, alternate/alternate planning, & even then things rarely go as they have been planned. All Day Campers are sent a packet of info in the mail prior to the start of camp. In the packet is info on activities, a schedule, and a list of items the campers need to bring. It is up to you to read it. Every day of camp, the camp staff arrives anywhere from 1 to 1/2 hr before the scouts arrive to set up and prepare for the day. When the staff is all there, they will have a mini meeting to make sure everyone knows who is doing what, when, where. As a Day Camp Den Leader you are really considered a camper & not staff. On the first day of camp, the Camp Director gives all of the campers a run down of what will be happening & how things will be run. If anyone has any questions the Camp Director, Program Director, or any camp Staff will be more than happy to help. Our camps run from 9am - 3pm. Campers bring their own water bottle & lunch. Camp provides drinks during the day and an afternoon snack. Regarding discipline at Day Camp. In the years that I have been staffing it we have NEVER had any big problems. The boys are on the move, having fun from 9 till 3. They usually don't have a lot of time to get into trouble. If they find the time, they are separated from what they are doing wrong & returned to their leader & the rest of their den by whoever sees it going on. If something happens at an activity station it is up to the staff member at that station & the den leader to deal with it. The most we have had is bathroom line spats, a bit of pushing, and running. As to your boys being disappointed. Why are they disappointed? Were the activities not fun? Was there a lot of sitting around "free" time? Didn't they like the other boys in their den? While adults can get frustrated with a perceived lack of organization, they should in no way let that frustration affect their boys. As long as they are having fun, the boys could usually care less about the behind the scenes (or any organizational) stuff.

"i was wondering would i be more of an asset to everyone as a silver awarder or a ranger?" Wrong question Lee. You are who you are, the cumulation of everything you have done and experienced for the last 18 years. YOU would be an asset to ANY group, without earning either award. Both awards take a LOT of work and commitment. Do not go into this based on what will work for OTHER people. Look at what is entailed in the awards and decide what looks INTERESTING to YOU. Then go for it! Keep in mind to start a bit slower. If you thought high school was hectic, college is lots more so! You might even find some interests at college that really strike a chord with you. Get your feet wet first, with both the Crew & College, then see where your time, & interests take you! Good Luck!

"I've seen and heard leaders say "I'm an Eagle, I don't need training."" Yup, I've run across these types too. In both Cub & Boy Scout units. It is a real shame, especially if the person has the potential to be a really good leader.

"It's been a hard decision to make but also for the past year I have been involved at the District level and have made the decision to put my time and training to the District level." "I would like to move up to CC, since I was the one responsible getting the Troop to where it is today." Sounds to me like this is more about your ongoing animosity toward the CC & the Troop Committee. Let the CC, COR, & IH know of your decision and move on.