ScoutNut

Thought it was gone for a while last night, but it is back this morning. This is one stubborn little nasty piece of business.

The key to this thread is one very particular word in the title - "MANDATORY". "I've talked about this post to some leaders in our area and we get a good chuckle about those cub packs who say they would never require anybody to do anything to help." If that is what you read here than you must be reading a whole different thread than I am. There is a world of difference between asking specific parents in your Pack to do specific things (even just doing a mass cattle call for helpers, which I dislike) - and REQUIRING that everyone, INCLUDING registered Pack Leaders, MUST do a set number of Pack activities per year, or be kicked out of the Pack. Chuckle all you like, I do not find that type of forced volunteering amusing at all.

Still coming up, although not every time I access the site.

Whoops - back button is unusable.

Yep - IT'S BACK! So far it does not look like the history is involved.

Jam (or is it bo?) Fortunately National does not agree with you, nor do most Boy Scout Troops, High Schools, or just about any other place you could mention. As to the original thread - The ASM went way overboard with the public displays and threats. Could be that is her personality and it will not improve. Hopefully with training and a friendly discussion with the SM her attitude and technique will improve. Where were the other adults from the Troop at camp? Why did no one talk to her there? Could it be there was more to the story than simply bad language and unruly behavior?

Never kept count, but I read as often as I have the time. Usually that means while walking to work and to all hours of the night! I would have to guess around 55.

"First the bare minimum you need to start up a new Pack are - 5 Scouts (not 3) 1 Cubmaster 1 Charter Org Rep who is also registered as the Committee Chair 2 Committee Members 1 Den Leader" Taken directly off the new unit application - so yes, this is National's bare minimum. Actually the requirement states you need 3 committee members, with one of those 3 being the Committee Chair. Also the COR can be dual registered as either CC or a Committee Member. So, to have the minimum people, you have your COR dual register and then only need 2 more Committee Members. "Are you sure about this list? A new unit that started up down the street from ours doesn't have all this, even on paper. I had asked the UC about it and he said they didn't have a Committee Chair... They have 5 scouts, COR, CM, 1 committee member, who happens to be the treasurer, a Tiger DL (4 of the 5 scouts are Tigers), and a DL." Since only 1 den leader is required, I would bet the other one was registered as a committee member. Also since they have no CC, they must have registered the COR as CC. I would not worry about them. They are legal on paper, and if they do a good recruiting effort the next 2 months they should be fine and can rearrange position titles when they recharter. Although I am wondering why the UC is discussing their charter with you if you are not connected to their Pack.

"ScoutNut, wouldn't being DL be your "required volunteering?"" I was actually referring to the following comment in the original thread - "Our Pack is pursuing a philosophy and program of mandatory family support during two activities per year with assigned teams. Unless there is a REAL good reason for doing so, nobody ducks this expectation, not even Den leaders (they only have to support one activity due to their Den responsibilities)." However I do not like mandatory volunteerism. Also, how would you enforce it in a Cub Pack? Charge the unvolunteering families more? Kick them out? If you are going to put on a $ penalty, some might pay just to get out of it. However you will always have those who do not have time, or money, and don't feel they have a need to explain themselves to the Pack, who will simply pull out. Some will find a new Pack and others might feel that attitude is BSA policy and quit all together. If you kick them out, you again get some who will find a new Pack and others, who might feel that attitude is BSA policy, will quit all together. The Pack gets no volunteer, no $, and more important, the boy gets no Scouting. How sad when it is so unnecessary. All you really have to do is ask the person you feel can handle the task, nicely, face-to-face, to do it. More often than not they will readily accept. If they do not, you ask someone else.

People who are forced into doing something that they do not want to do generally do not do it happily or well. That puts an added burden on the folks who they are supposed to be helping. If my CM/CC told me that I was required to take on a Pack activity (even though I was putting together a weekly program, spending my own money, setting up outings, spending hours each month keeping records up to date, spending hours attending monthly Committee & Roundtable meetings, spending hours getting ready for and helping to present monthly Pack meetings, and more, all in my capacity as a Den Leader) or I could find another Pack - I would find another Pack. On the other hand, if my CM/CC asked my nicely if I would have time and be willing to help with something else I would say sure, why not. I wear many Unit and District hats, not because someone is holding a virtual gun to my head, but because I enjoy what I am doing. The day the "gun" come out is the day I say enough is enough and find an organization that appreciates what I am willing to give to it.

My son helped with BALOO training while he was a youth (16-18). He helped with the cooking, equipment and campfire sections. One time he demonstrated DO cooking for all of the participants of BALOO, WLOT, & IOLS (all trainings same place and time). Once he turned 18 he took the entire course and is now an official BALOO staff member. He has always enjoyed working with the adult Scouters and Professionals in the District and Council. It is also nice to know I can at least get 1 or 2 staff helpers from my own house!

Obviously has never heard that the optimal way is to praise in public - punish in private. Mention your concern to the SM.

I do not recommend doing a BOR for a boy who is not a member of your Troop. The BOR not only tracks a Scouts progress and reviews with him the requirements for his current (and next) rank, but it is also a review of the Troop itself. The Scout should feel able to discuss his feelings about his Troop and it's leaders (this is the reason SM and ASM's are not allowed to sit on BOR's). How is this going to work if the members of the BOR are not in the Scouts Troop and have no interest in how the Troop is running it's program? How will the BOR have any idea of what this boy is like? They don't know him at all. If the Troop is short of Committee members, they can ask for one of yours to sit on their BOR. However - BOR's should be done by the Scout's OWN Troop. The Eagle BOR is especially troubling. Something is up there. Tell them to go with a District EBOR.(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

OK, let me get this straight, you are "officially" Asst Cubmaster. Unofficially you are Tiger Den Leader, Wolf/Bear Den Leader, and Committee Chair. Well, no wonder you are stating you can not do it all! People have asked where the CM is, my question is where is the Committee Chair (CC) and the Charter Org Rep (COR)? First the bare minimum you need to start up a new Pack are - 5 Scouts (not 3) 1 Cubmaster 1 Charter Org Rep who is also registered as the Committee Chair 2 Committee Members 1 Den Leader These should NOT be simply "paper" names simply put down in order to start a unit. They should all be adults committed to the Pack and its growth. Otherwise what exactly is the point of starting the unit only to have it fail because of lack of leadership? Each of these people should be doing their OWN job and committed to doing it to the best of their ability or the 1 or 2 who are actually doing the work will get burned out in no time (as you are already experiencing) and the unit will fold. ALL of the registered adults should take training ASAP! You need to UNDERSTAND THE PROGRAM and your roles in it if the Pack is to succeed. Start with BSA's Online Training Center - http://olc.scouting.org/ Take all parts of the Cub Scout Leader Fast Start, Youth Protection Training, and even Troop Committee Challenge. Although the Committee Challenge is aimed at a Boy Scout Troop Committee, it will still give you an idea of what a Committee should be doing. You also need to do New Leaders Essentials and Cub Scout Position Specific Training. Somewhere down the road you will also need to get someone BALOO and Webelos Outdoor trained if your Pack wants to do any camping, but that can wait. Roundtables are a great resource, not only for ideas on how to work with the National Cub Themes, but for networking reasons. You get to know your District volunteers, both at the District and Pack level, and can get many of your questions answered. Figure out where each of your adults can best serve the Pack and then go for it. Titles/positions can be changed when/if the Pack recharters.

Yup, every time I open a new tab or window. It looks to me like it could be a data miner, and that is NOT something I want running on my PC!

One other wrinkle to consider - If that dual registered Scout is 18+ and registered in the Troop as an adult Asst SM, remember that he is considered a YOUTH with the Crew. If he is at the campout as an ASM with the Troop he can only tent with other adult, 18+, Troop Scouters, not with anyone under 18. He would also, as an adult, not be included in the youth program. If he is at the campout as a Crew member he can tent with an under 18 male Crew member, but not with an adult, 21+, Scouter. He could also participate with the Crew in their youth program. However, he would have a problem with the Troop youth considering him an adult and the Crew youth considering him a Crew member buddy. Even if he were under 18, the Scout would have to pick a unit and stick with that unit's program the entire time. It would be highly unfair, not to mention confusing for the leaders/advisors, to switch program affiliation every 1/2 hour depending on the activities being done.

Who is Elizabeth?? Yes, Scouting IS for the boys. And it would be nice if the Scoutmaster WAS doing his job. Unfortunately, it does not sound like that is the case. This is not a problem of overbearing parents. This is a case of a SM and CC not running a BSA program. The boys, you know the ones who Scouting is for, deserve to get the program they signed up for, regardless how "difficult" this makes the SM's job.

Please keep in mind, the person who is running the Pack campout MUST be BALOO trained. It defeats the purpose if you have the BALOO trained person just a name or signature on a Tour Permit.

Make sure your parental involvement starts where it should, in the program. It is rather counter productive to let parents get away with not working with their son on his achievements and projects, but then to make activity assistance mandatory. For Webelos dens, parents should be working as Activity Pin Counselors. In the Wolf and Bear dens parents should be working with their boys at home on most of their achievements and many of their electives. And, where it all starts, in the Tiger den, Shared Leadership should be used extensively. Start them early with the expectation that they must work with their son and his den and most of your job will be done. Den leaders can use their families for any number of jobs from driving, to photographer, to den newsletter, to snack maker and more. If you have a need for a Pack committee for an activity, have your den leaders recommend a few parents they feel would do a good job. Then have the den leader, who knows the families, ask them face to face. Do sign ups for activities thru the den so the leader can encourage den families one-on-one to attend.

Your Council should have Camporees coming up this fall (usually Sept or Oct). Take your Den to visit one of them. Although they will not be able to participate, watching the Troop competitions should be fun. You will also have a chance to see the area Troops "in action", the way they really are, and not just putting on a show for visiting Webelos.

WOW! 800 boys in your District Day Camp!! You must have an enormous amount of room! Not to mention one VERY active District! My District uses a local town Park District facility and we don't have the capacity for anything even close to that. This year we had just around 80 boys attend our 3 day Day Camp. I would say the 16 boys in a Day Camp den was an awful lot. It would be really hard to keep that many boys actively involved in the stations activity unless you had about 3 staffers at each station. Perhaps the Camp Directors were trying to keep a Pack together in the same den. The minimum standard for adult participation is 1 adult for every 5 boys. With 16 boys you should have had 4 adults with the den. However, no matter what program they are in, Tigers MUST have an Adult Partner with them at all times. It is not optional. It is the way the Tiger program is written. Perhaps 3 of the 4 den adults were Tiger Partners.

I appreciate that you, various CM's and SM's, and the city, want the Webelos involved in this. I also appreciate the fact that many Webelos are quite good at camping. That, however is not the point. Just because "a majority" of the leaders in your area think an activity is a good thing does NOT make it a good thing in the eyes of the BSA. It is the opinion of the BSA, thru your council, that counts. It is their name out there in front of the city on the activity and the program. Also, your comments about looking for loop holes and being "bitten by the Legal Beagle", are not good ones. Your "Legal Beagle" is correct. BSA policy is VERY clear here. Instead of looking for loop holes, work WITH your council and the BSA National policies. If this is truly the ONLY Webelos programing that your council will do all year, why not do it correctly and make it truly a Webelos event. Separate the Boy Scouts camp area from the camp area with the Webelos and their parents. Include a separate program of activities for the Webelos. Do NOT have Webelos participating in Boy Scout competitions/events. If you want the Webelos involved in the festival have them do a demonstration of WEBELOS skills. Or, if you want them to do something with the Boy Scouts, have 1 of the Boy Scout "public" events be a First Aid Demo. The Webelos can be fixed up with various injuries and be the victims for the Boy Scouts. (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

Scouting with LDS is DIRECTLY tied to their religion. It is used as part of their religious priesthood training. LDS his one of the few Charter Organizations who have taken to heart the concept of their ownership and involvement in the program. Even if the Bishop is unhappy with the situation, it is not your problem, or your fault. It is the decision of the family how they raise their son and what activities they put him in. It is the decision of your Troop to accept a boy into your Troop, or not. I am sure the family will simply look at a different Troop to join if you turn them down. If you are concerned you should discuss this with the family involved, they are the ones who would be able to answer your questions, we have no idea of their situation.

See the following BSA pulications - http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/13-069/ http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-750.html

BSA policies are pretty clear cut on this one, and can be found in a number of sources. From BSA "Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines for 2006" - http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/13-361/index.html "Webelos dens are encouraged to VISIT Boy Scout camporees and Klondike derbies. The purpose of these visits should be for the boys to look ahead with anticipation to their future as Boy Scouts and observe troops they might join. Webelos Scouts should not compete or participate in activities designed for Boy Scouts. Webelos Scouts should not spend the night at the event if the program is Boy Scout-based. A separate Webelos-only event known as a Webelos-Ree should be provided by the council or district." Also - "Webelos dens are encouraged to participate in joint den-troop campouts, particularly in the fifth-grade year. These campouts should be conducted with an individual troop for the purpose of strengthening ties between the pack and the troop. BSA health and safety, age-appropriate guidelines for Cub Scout activities, and Youth Protection guidelines apply. When camping with a troop, Cub Scout guidelines still apply for all Cub Scout members." What all of this means is that Webelos are still CUB SCOUTS not Boy Scouts and all rules, regulations, and programing that they participate in should be for the CUB SCOUT level. Webelos Cub Scouts should NOT be participating in a Boy Scout Camporee. The programing is age appropriate for the Boy Scout level not for Cub Scouts. That all being said, some Councils and Districts do seem to ignore this National policy. Others, who follow National policy, will run a Webelos program (like a Webelos-Ree) in a different area, with a separate Webelos camping area, and visiting (not participating in) the BS Camporee will be a part of the Webelos program. Age-Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities - http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf Webelos-ree Planning - http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/13-238/index.html