ScoutNut

I'm sorry, but I do not understand how your taking control of your den will "destroy" the Pack. I understand there is a conflict between you, the CM and the Committee. However, if you confine yourself to your job of Webelos Den Leader and let the Committee do it's own job, how will the Pack be "destroyed". Or did you take the Committee Chair position too? You did say you volunteered for the position. If you truly are concerned that this Pack is on the verge of self-destruction then you have an obligation to contact both your COR and your UC and let them know.

What a shame that this behavior went on for so long and no one felt it necessary to let the Council know about it! As horrible as that was, it was ONE camp in ONE council. I have been to GSUSA camps and that is not typical behavior. However, problems with paid staffers does occur at BSA, GSUSA, and other Youth Group camps. It just comes with the territory. On another forum here there was a discussion about a Scout staffer at a BSA summer camp caught smoking pot. People have to be willing to report bad behavior or the organization in charge of the camp will never know about it.

When the CM "takes over" the Den Meeting what happens? Do the activities that were planned for that meeting get accomplished? Does he go on at length about nothing so that nothing gets done? Does he confuse the boys? Do the boys learn anything? Is it still a good meeting? You need to look at these questions from as unbiased (you obviously dislike him a LOT) a point of view as possible. Look at it from the boys perspective if possible. It might very well be that while he buts in and pushes you to the side (and in the process upsets you) he is NOT hurting the program or the boys, just being unbearably (to you) pushy. If he is truly not hurting the boys program you need to decide if you can put up with him for the next 6 months. Do you have an Asst Webelos Leader? If you could sign up one of your parents for that position it might help. If you decide you can not put up with him at meetings, simply let him (& all other parents) know that as 5th grade Webelos, the boys need to start transitioning to a more Boy Scout mentality. That would include no more parents at meetings. Let everyone know that the ONLY parents who should be at any meeting are the parents who are presenting an Activity Pin to the boys. Let them know that the boys have to start becoming much more independent from their parents because in 6 short months they will be on their own in a Troop. Line up mostly outside help to do their remaining Activity Pins so that you do not need to use many parents. Using area Merit Badge Counselors would be a great introduction for your Webelos. Getting a Den Chief might also help. As for AOL & Crossover, the only way he can interfere is if you let him. There is nothing wrong with having AOL or Crossover at a Pack meeting. In fact, they should be done in front of the whole Pack. Three hours is rather long, but we have had B&G dinner, awards, crossover, entertainment, & after event clean-up that went from 6-9pm. Of course most folks were out of there by 8:15/8:30. Have you considered splitting AOL and Crossover into 2 different months Pack meetings? Your boys could be finished with their requirements for AOL by December or January. You could have your AOL ceremony at your January Pack meeting and Crossover at February's B&G Pack meeting. Or do AOL in Feb and Crossover in March. It is up to YOU. YOU are the one to contact the SM's of the Troops the boys will be crossing to. YOU will be coordinating the ceremony with the SM's. YOU will be requesting the AOL for the boys from your Advancement person. YOU will be telling the Committee that AOL will be at this Pack meeting and Crossover will be at this other Pack meeting. If the Committee decides to do it a different way simply tell them NO, that you have everything in hand and all ceremonies are already planned.

Is it the Annual American Indian Boy Scouting/Girl Scouting Seminar? It was held this year at East Central University, in Ada, Oklahoma on July 7-11. http://aisa.scoutreachbsa.org/

Adults (both men & women) are submitted for membership in OA for very different reasons than boys are elected. It does not matter who they are, but what they can do. If you are going to be a member of either BSA or OA, you should be prepared to abide by the rules and regulations that exist NOW. Do your son, and all of the other boys you will come in contact with a favor, and do not live in the past. Do not "adjust" the program until it is something that exists only in your memory.

"Due to the things I saw at GSA camp, I have warned MANY friends and acquaintances that the GSA camp I saw was not at all compatible with the values they held." First off, please use correct terminology. There is no such organization as GSA. The organizaton is the Girl Scouts of the United States of America, or GSUSA. What exactly were these "things" you saw at that one camp you visited?

"WOSM was very adamant that any scout association which wanted to be part of WOSM, had to adhere to the basic principles as set down by the Founder, which included "Duty to God". WOSM does not permit that this phrase be altered, or that scouts may replace it with their own." Actually, this is not exactly correct. From the WOSM website, an article on Scouting and Spiritual Development - From a Resolution of the 18th World Scout Conference, 1961 - For Scout associations which so wish the Promise must be capable of being formulated so that allowance is made for the fact that their membership may include believers in a Personal God and also those who acknowledge a spiritual Reality. Any such information must be in accord with the original Scout Promise that recognizes a supreme spiritual Presence in the Universe. And, on the impact to the World Scout Movement of the fall of the Berlin wall and the collapse of the Soviet Bloc - "The question with which Scouting had to wrestle was: can the name of God be imposed in their Promise on young people who are completely secularized with deep-rooted prejudices? The solution adopted by the Constitutions Committee, with the support of the World Committee, was as follows: As a first step, the Constitutions Committee drew up a definition of the spiritual dimension which was felt to be both theologically and educationally sound: Acceptance of a Spiritual Reality and search for its full significance. In the same manner, the Committee accepted the following formulation for the Promise: To do my duty to God, that is to accept a Spiritual Reality and to search for its full significance. In so doing, the Constitutions Committee, with the support of the World Committee, noted that: Either one and/or the other part of the formulation could be used but that in no case would there be a Promise without a spiritual dimension." and "In addition, the Committee endeavoured to discuss the question with each of the associations at length, to help them find a formula that would be the most conducive to the spiritual development of young people in their respective societies. From the WOSM Constitution - "All members of the Scout Movement are required to adhere to a Scout Promise and Law reflecting, in language appropriate to the culture and civilization of each National Scout Organization and approved by the World Organization, the principles of Duty to God, Duty to others and Duty to self, and inspired by the Promise and Law conceived by the Founder of the Scout Movement" Which, by the way, is very similar to the WAGGGS Constitution - "A Member of the World Association shall be a National Organization which: a) adheres to the Fundamental Principles and has a Promise and Law, in wording approved by the World Board, which embodies the essential elements of the Original Promise and Law" The Scout Promise of two WOSM member countries - JAPAN - "On my honor, I promise I will do my best to do my duty to God/Buddha and the country, and to obey the Scout Laws, to help other people at all times, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight." INDIA - "The Promise for the Scout/Guide is: " On my honour, I promise that I will do my best to do my duty to God* and my country, to help other people and to obey the Scout/Guide Law" * The word "Dharma" may be substituted for the word "God" if so desired." The above WOSM Promise sounds a LOT like the Promise of GSUSA - "On my honor, I will try: To serve God* and my country, To help people at all times, And to live by the Girl Scout Law. * The word "God" can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on one's spiritual beliefs. When reciting the Girl Scout Promise, it is okay to replace the word "God" with whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate." So, it seems WAGGGS is not "lax" and WOSM is not "adamant". They are both saying the same thing, just a bit differently. 'Nuff said.

Here we go again!

It looks like 2 of the Rock Island city parks have jog paths. http://www.rigov.org/citydepartments/parks/longviewpark.html http://www.rigov.org/citydepartments/parks/sunsetpark.html Wildcat State Park in Iowa. http://www.iowadnr.com/parks/state_park_list/wildcat_den.html Some area Illinois State Parks. http://dnr.state.il.us/lands/Landmgt/PARKS/R1/BIGRIVER.HTM http://dnr.state.il.us/lands/Landmgt/PARKS/R1/BIGBEND.HTM http://dnr.state.il.us/lands/Landmgt/PARKS/R1/PROPHET.HTM A number of different places in the Quad Cities region. http://www.qconline.com/qcqa/qcqa_stories.cgi?section=qaap04&prcss=display&id=163644

"my wife and I are the only registered MB counselors for the troop" Please keep in mind that while you and your wife might be the only adults in your Troop who are registered MB Counselors, that does NOT mean that you are the only 2 MBC's AVAILABLE to the Troop. It sounds like you both registered as Troop only. There are many, many other MBC's in your District and Council who are available to anyone who needs them. Your Council (and your SM) should have a list of all available Merit Badge Counselors. As to the rest, no one here thinks you are out of line with your questions. I think it is great that you are there to help the boys. I also think that you, with your background, have a particular focus on fitness. That is fine, but remember there is much more involved with being a Scout. Don't loose sight of the rest of the picture. Have you taken any training yet? You might ask some of your questions of your District Training Team members. Also, if you attend your District Roundtable you can get ideas from Scouters in other local Troops and get to know some of the local District staff (which is a good idea for any new unit).

AS knowledgeable as these 4H kids are, thy are not professionals. Bike Helmets are just a band-aid so that folks feel like precautions are being taken, when in fact none are. This is a private home, not a professional riding stable. If the kids want to ride with this 4H group on their own time, OK. As a Cub Scout group, I would say watch, learn, don't get on a horse. If a Scout were to get kicked, stepped on or thrown, this individual would be libel, and if it were MY child, the CM would be too. BTW - Was a Tour permit filled out?

That is why I like to browse over at http://www.scouting.org/ every once in a while. It is amazing the things you can learn. For instance, in this month's Cub podcast they talk about the new Leader Training Modules. http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/podcast/2007-09.mp3 Might want to ask you District Training Chair about them.

"i was simply looking for how other packs handle things." Actually you asked for input on we felt about charging more. "does anyone else think we should be charging more to create more incentive for scouts to participate in helping the pack go?" The fact that only about HALF of your Pack participates in your fundraising is your biggest problem. Charging over what an award costs at your Scout Shop is only an incentive for families to bypass you and purchase direct from the Shop or to find another Pack, not to do more fundraising. We had 45 boys last year and only 1 boy did not sell, although his brother participated in a Booth Sale. Your Pack needs to concentrate on getting the families to feel like they have a stake in the Pack. They need to feel like it truly is THEIR Pack. They have to be revved up and excited about selling. Yes, I know that most families are involved in numerous other fundraisers. Ours are too. Our school has mandatory fundraising. Families must fundraise or pay out of pocket. So they are fundraising all year long. Then there are special fundraisers for school service projects, school music program fundraisers, school sports fundraisers, park district sports fundraisers, etc, etc. Not to mention that many of our families also have girls in Scouts. Fall (at the same time as our popcorn) is the GSUSA candy/nut/magazine program, then comes the cookie program and then fundraising for their spring camping trip. It never stops. Yet, out of 45 boys, only 1 did not sell any popcorn. Yet, we sell enough at our one and only fundraiser to pay for everything. Making a profit on those families who do not fundraise will not help fix your problems or improve your Pack.

What John said! It is not the Committee's job to decide if, or when, a volunteer is relieved of his position. That is a decision made between the head of your Charter Org, your COR, and your CC, with help and input from your UC if needed. I am not real sure why your FD, and especially your SE, would be involved unless there are youth protection issues involved. If there are YP issues, than he needs to be gone yesterday.

WOSM can have whatever policies it likes. That is it's perogitive as an association. That does not mean that GSUSA is under any oblication to do things according to WOSM. GSUSA is not a member of WOSM. GSUSA is a member of WAGGGS (World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts). I happen to agree with GSUSA. Why force someone to say a word that is against their religious principles? Rather defeats the purpose of freedom of religion wouldn't you say?

Chicago - RIBS! Italian Ice Polish with hot peppers PIZZA! Lake Salmon Fresh caught Smelt!

"at the same time removing all references to God that they could find" This comment is blatantly untrue and offensive. While Heritage Girls is strictly a CHRISTIAN organization, GSUSA is not. GSUSA has many faiths and spiritual beliefs represented in their girls, some of whom would be decidedly uncomfortable promising to serve a Christian God. GSUSA decided to acknowledge that fact and, instead of forcing girls to conform to Christian beliefs ONLY, allow girls of different beliefs to promise to serve whatever Deity their religion dictates. This is called being diverse, not to mention granting the girls in the program their right to believe as THEY see fit, and NOT as YOU see fit. Your daughters are not being forced to make a pledge to Krishna or Allah, why would you FORCE a Hindu girl to pledge to YOUR God? The Girl Scout Promise On my honor, I will try: To serve God* and my country, To help people at all times, And to live by the Girl Scout Law. * The word "God" can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on one's spiritual beliefs. When reciting the Girl Scout Promise, it is okay to replace the word "God" with whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate. GSUSA also actively encourages its members to earn the religious emblem of their faith.

You do not "earn" a Service Star. It denotes a year of membership in the BSA. Most boys join BSA at the beginning of the school year, in Aug or Sept. BSA leaves the details of when/how to present the stars up to the individual unit.

I agree John, I was thinking more in terms of general volunteer service to the Pack/Den as a whole, not following BSA program and BSA policies. If they can/will not follow BSA program and policy that is a whole different thing. Perhaps they then need to rethink joining an organization whose rules and program they can not follow.

"what would your response be (if you were the Committee Chair for a Pack) if a parent came to you with the following: We would like to have our son join your pack but first let me state that we, as his parents, will not, under any circumstances, volunteer any time or support whatsoever to your pack." Well, first let me say that in the 13 years I have been involved with our Pack, not even one family has ever stated anything close to the above. If at some future time a family did state this, we would tell that family that we were sorry to hear that, that they would be missing out on a lot, but that we always need help in many different forms throughout the year and, if their circumstances ever changed where they felt they could be of some help, in even a small way, to just let us know. welcome to Pack # 123! Meanwhile we would periodically ask them if they felt they could do small things, like bring a gal of OJ for a Pack meeting snack, or help with a station at a Pack meeting activity, or drive their son to a den outing. If the answer is no, that's fine, but I bet that eventually you would start getting a yes or 2 and that might lead to more, or not. The main thing is that their boy is learning and growing and having fun.

"please feel free to debate the issue of whether it is appropriate to ask for a Pack to develop and execute plans to require volunteer time/support as a condition of being a member of that one pack (not Scouting in general)." I think that most of us feel that the answer to this is that - NO it is NOT appropriate.

Since there are no stars for 1/2 years, the Troops in my area who do Service Stars (not all units, Packs, Troops, etc, do), usually give their first year scouts a 1 year pin with the Boy Scout backing even though they have only been in a Troop since Feb or March. The boy has still been registered with BSA the entire year. Your Webelos will receive a 1 year Service Star with the Cub Scout gold backing in Sept from your Pack. If the Troop he crosses into gives out Service stars, he should receive a 1 year Star with the Boy Scout green backing whenever the Troop hands out the Stars. This is usually either at the last Court Of Honor for the year, or the first. It is entirely up to the Troop and has nothing to do with when anyone recharters. The boy will wear both 1 year Stars (1 from Cubs & 1 from Boys). At the end of his 6th grade year (a total of 3 years in BSA), he will receive from his Troop a Service Star with a 2 on it and the green Boy Scout backing. He will then replace the #1 year with green backing with the #2 year with green backing. So, your now former Webelos, will be wearing a 1 year star with gold backing and a 2 year star with green backing. Just a bit of added info for the adult Scouters - Adults have the option to wear stars for each level of their youth membership (orange/gold/green/brown/red) along with the star for their adult membership (blue) (ie: #2 with gold + #4 with green + #2 with red + #2 with blue - for a total of 4 stars) OR a combined total of youth and adult membership with the adult blue backing (ie: #10 with blue - a total of 1 star) Hope this helps!

Service Pins denote how many years of Scouting you have COMPLETED. For that reason we give our Service Pins out at the last Pack meeting of the school year, along with all of the graduation stuff. The first Pack meeting of the school year (Sept) would work too. Your Webelos who joined in Sept 2006, would receive a 1 year pin because he has completed 1 year in BSA. If he is currently a 5th grade Webelos, his 2 year pin will be presented by his Troop at the end of this year or beginning of next year (depending on their traditions).

In order to join a Troop WITHOUT earning AOL the boy must be 10 years old AND have finished 5th grade OR be 11 years old. Since he is in 4th grade, he must be 11 by the time he wants to cross over to a Troop (03/2008). In order to join a Troop WITH earning AOL he must be 10 years old. However - The time requirement for AOL is - "Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge." Since he has not completed 4th grade, in order to cross over to a Boy Scout Troop in March of 2008 he must turn 10 years old in September, 2007, or earlier. If the ages fit, earning Webelos and AOL by 03/2008 is certainly doable. He will have to work very hard however. Since his mother is his DL, I am sure she will push him and make sure everything gets done. My only misgivings are, if mom is going to be spending all of her time working with her son to get him ready to cross in March, how will that affect the rest of her den? Will they suffer because all of her time, energy, and effort is going to her son only? The rest of the den deserves a good Webelos program too. Also, what happens when she crosses her son in March? Is she planning on going with him? Will her 4th grade Webelos den be left high and dry without a leader? If she is planning on going on to the Troop in March, or even in June, perhaps it might be better for the rest of her Den if a new 4th grade Webelos Den Leader were found ASAP. She could then step back to being a parent and would have plenty of time to work with her son. The Den would have a Leader who could take them thru both 4th and 5th grade, and not have to suffer from lack of leadership.

"Who said anything about having DLs, CMs, or CCs do anything else? Everyone gets all up in arms about working your position and being asked to do more. Scoutnut and KC, where do you see anywhere in this thread that people in positions are being asked to do more?" As I stated in one of my posts above - ""ScoutNut, wouldn't being DL be your "required volunteering?"" I was actually referring to the following comment in the original thread - "Our Pack is pursuing a philosophy and program of mandatory family support during two activities per year with assigned teams. Unless there is a REAL good reason for doing so, nobody ducks this expectation, not even Den leaders (they only have to support one activity due to their Den responsibilities)." " Since this comment is what this thread was spun off from, I felt that it was fair to include it. As you can see, he IS including Den Leaders. For your next comment - "I think Chuck is asking about those who are not registered leaders being asked to chip in and help." I think that "mandatory family support" is a bit MORE than "being asked to chip in and help". Now, I do not know what Chuck considers "a REAL good reason" for not doing your assigned activities, but, as I stated before, Den Leader or not, I know I would not want to stay in his unit. "Thanks for the trip down memory lane Eamonn. I have dear memories like that from childhood as well. But den mothers having meetings in the afternoon at their home and all the neighborhood boys wearing their uniform to school doesn't happen anymore. 21st century pack leadership is not the same." Well, maybe not in your Pack or in Chuck's, but our Pack runs pretty darn similar to Eamonn's. Our parents mostly all help out, in some way or another, when asked. There are a VERY few who do not help out much, some I know (or can guess) the reasons why, some I do not (and will NOT ask). If we ask for help, and they are able to give it, they do. We have NEVER had to cancel an activity because of lack of adult help.