ScoutNut

There is a LOT of info at the BSA National Web site that will help you and your other new leaders. Check it out here - http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/Leaders.aspx

I never said that MY religion was against immunizations. As a matter of fact, I stated that I did NOT AGREE with withholding immunizations (or any other medical care). However - There ARE some religious doctrines that are against immunizations. There are some people that are against immunizations based on their own strong religious beliefs on certain subjects. What I said was that it is THEIR belief, and it is wrong to force them to go against their beliefs simply because YOU (or I) do not agree with them. The government agrees with this. Just about every state recognizes religious exemptions. From the National Centers for Disease Control web site - "In every state, parents with religious objections to immunization may apply for an exemption for their child or children from the state's immunization requirements for school entry. All states offer medical exemptions (individuals who are immunocompromised, have allergic reactions to vaccine constituents, have moderate or severe illness, etc.). Religious exemptions are allowed in 48 states (West Virginia and Mississippi do not), and 15 states offer philosophical exemptions. The requirements for documentation of medical, religious, or philosophical exemptions vary." You might not agree, you might not like it, but it is a fact that we have to accept, especially as we very well might have some Scouts and Scouters in our units who would fall under this exemption.

Each den leader should also have a copy of their den's Handbook and the Cub Scout Program Helps for 2008-2009. The Den in a Box things are rather expensive. Especially if you only have a few boys. You might be able to purchase just the themed helps booklet instead of the entire Box. BSA's online store - http://www.scoutstuff.org/ - has some from this last year. Do you have any experienced leaders on board at all? Having someone with experience acting as a mentor will be a big help. Your Unit Commissioner will help here too. Once you have leaders, sit down and plan your year. Don't forget to include fundraising. If your council does popcorn they will probably have a kickoff sometime in August. Most councils also have a program kickoff in August which you should get at least your Cubmaster (CM) and Committee Chair (CC) to attend. Your Pack will also need a US flag, a Pack flag and some flag stands. Your Charter Organization (CO) might be able to help you with some start-up expenses. They might also have someplace that you can use for storage. Have a close relationship with your CO from the get go. It makes a BIG difference!

While I might not personally agree with this particular aspect of certain religions, it is their right to follow the religion they choose. Just as I am not forced to join their religion, or follow their teachings, it is their right not to be forced to follow mine. I believe that school systems also make allowances for these religious beliefs. Just because BSA allows exemptions from immunization for religious reasons, does NOT mean that they will also waive the medical exam. Per BSA's exemption form, they still require a medical evaluation and screening by a licensed health care practitioner. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/25-01.pdf BSA also has their Informed Consent Agreement - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34-38.pdf

OK - Big problem - Materials are NOT up to date on the Tiger program. There is no more Tiger Motto at all. Tigers use the Cub Scout Motto, just like the rest of the Cubs. Also, this is simply following the Tiger Handbook along with a den newsletter to remind/update families. So, how does it save the den leader time? They either read their Handbook and use that info along with what they like from the Program Helps - or they read the materials for this program and use what they like (or use 100% with no variation). You still have to read the information, get materials together, plan activities, have alt activities ready just in case, create a newsletter each week, etc, etc. I really don't see the advantage here except to a brand new leader, or to one who typically does not run a good den program on their own. It is running a GOOD, FUN, program that keeps the boys and their families in - not cranking out the awards. Our Pack has a retention rate of 90-95%, the den leaders run good programs, the Pack runs a good, year round, program, and while we do our best to get each boy to earn his rank, sometimes it just does not happen. Do we loose those boys who do not make their rank one year? NO! Why? Because the families know that awards are not just handed out and that they are responsible for working with their sons. And because we run a GOOD, FUN, Scout program! Usually, the year after a boy misses his rank award, his family makes a point to work with him and it does not happen a second time. Our council has not said anything so far about participating in the expanded pilot program. I will withhold my final opinion until I see actual, current materials. However, from what I have read, here and elsewhere, I am not excited by it.

"So, which is it?" Both Current immunizations are recommended, HOWEVER, the BSA makes allowances for religious beliefs that do not allow them. A Class 1 medical form is required for Day Camp. For those folks whose religious beliefs do not include immunizations they should contact their council offices for what/if any forms are to be attached to the Class 1. For those folks who do immunize, my council accepts a flat "current", instead of specific dates.

From your original post, while it sounded like your CC was tactless in how he handled the situation, it seemed that he did what he did in an effort to follow BSA policies. What you asked for was an explanation of what, exactly, the CC's responsibilities were as far as being able to split up a den because you did not feel it was necessary to split your den ("When is a Den too big?"). There was no mention of the CC being a tin dictator. If you don't feel that this Pack is good for your son, and you do not feel comfortable moving to another Pack, you DO have another option. You can talk to your District Executive about forming a new Pack. Your DE can help find you a Charter Partner and explain to them their role in Scouting. Since you want to stay separate from the schools, and without any knowledge of your area, some community organizations that make good CO's are - Fraternal Orgs (Elks, Eagles, Moose, etc), Veterans organizations, Farm Bureaus, Conservation Clubs, Tribal Councils, Community Centers, Rotary and Lions clubs, Chamber of Commerce and the YMCA. If you choose to stay in your Pack, contact your Unit Commissioner for help. If you have no UC, give the District Commissioner a call. Your DE should also be brought in. BTW - Your Pack will not be able to re-charter without a registered Cubmaster.

It is not about dissatisfaction with you (this is not supposed to be "work"). It is about BSA policies. BSA states that dens should be between 6-8 boys. They feel that dens this size are big enough to be able to play a game, do a skit or work on a project, but still small enough to enable all of the boys to build a close relationship with each other and their leaders, and also have opportunities for leadership. It is supposed to be a small, intimate, fun group, not a classroom. As a Den leader, one of your responsibilities is to support the policies of the BSA. Yes, den leaders, the CM, the CC and the all of the rest of the Pack leadership are supposed to work together. Yes, some Packs do not mind if they have larger dens. However, one of the responsibilities of the Committee Chair is to recognize the need for more dens and to see that new dens are formed as needed. With a new Wolf den, in a large Pack which pulls from 4 schools, your CC is probably anticipating recruiting a bunch of new Wolves in the Fall. The Tiger and Wolf dens are usually the ones that receive the biggest portion of new recruits. Yes, it would have been nice if the CC would have given you a heads up about the decision that was reached at the Committee meeting you were unable to attend. However you were given a copy of the minutes so that you were not left in the dark. Also, you should have had your Assistant Den Leader, or one of the other den parents, attend the meeting in your stead to represent your den. That way you would have had someone to offer up your den's side of things. How does the other Wolf den leader feel about the grouping? Hopefully, more boys will register from the other school and the dens can get reshuffled closer to school lines in the Fall. Until then, don't show the boys that you are upset. Have a positive attitude and have fun with your den!

You claim the Troop is becoming a "mommy Troop". And yet, unless your Troop is made up of 100 % single moms, each Scout should have a male in their family somewhere. Where are they? You stated your SM said it's what the PARENTS want, and they pay the bills. This, to me implies BOTH mom and dad. You also claim that the families are transferring in droves. Unless the families that are leaving are 100 % single dads, then there are a good number of moms who do not like the new program either. Have the older Scouts families (dads AND moms) complained to the SM and the CC about the changes? After all, they "pay the bills" too. This sounds to me more like the families (both moms AND dads) of the newer Scouts prefer a more Webelos 3 type of program. I would also guess the other Troop's "more traditional" program means no women. Which I think you would prefer.

Also, be sure you get the dad a copy of all Pack and den calendars and newsletters so he knows when Scout activities are sheduled.

Nope, don't get in the middle. What you can do is talk to the dad and explain that while you do your best not to infringe on his time with his son, there are times when it is unavoidable. Let him know it is important to his son, his den and Pack to let the leader know if they will have to leave early or not be able to attend an event. You might also explain to him that his son wants to be able to work on the badges he missed. He can work with his son on these badges at home and, as long as his son keeps a journal of the work and brings in anything that was made, they can get approved by the den leader and he can get awarded his badges.

Why didn't / doesn't your stepdaughter (and you and your son) look into joining a Venturing Crew?

BTW - You might also remind the CM that without registered den leaders there will be no Pack to "control" because the Pack will be unable to re-charter.

The CM can not take over all of these things and decide there will be no committee unless he is allowed to. The CC should have simply told him that this is how it is being done and who is doing it - period. Webmaster - CM will not relinquish the passwords - Have the CC close it down and start a new Pack web site with the new Webmaster. Treasurer - The CM should NOT be the only one on the bank account. Have the CC go to the bank and take him off of the account. Give the job to someone else. Put at the CC, COR and Treasurer on the account. Blue and Gold Chair - CC should have told CM - Sorry NO - MR/MS soandso is in charge of that. "Whenever the subject of having a real committee comes up he refers to the "if your the one controlling the pack, you decide how it will run" statements." The CC should then remind him that he is NOT the one "controlling" the Pack. That actually the Charter Organization OWNS the Pack. The COR is the one who actually has the final say in how the Pack is run. The COR recruits the CC and the CC and COR are responsible for selecting ALL other leaders, INCLUDING the CM. No one really "controls" the Pack. The Pack SHOULD be run by everyone (CC, CM, DL, MC, COR, etc) working TOGETHER for the good of the boys. If you plan on taking on the position of CC then you will need to put your foot down, stand up to the CM, make him do HIS job, and make sure you do yours. Get your UC involved ASAP. Get trained. Get everyone else trained. If the CM does not want to run a BSA program then replace him with someone who will. It does not matter if he is a nice guy. It does not matter that you do not want to make waves. What matters is giving the boys the program they expect and deserve. Here is what BSA National says about the responsibilities of the different parts of a Pack - http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts/AboutCubScouts/ThePack.aspx

Reading your list of things that your CM has done/not done and the list of things that he has done wrong, it seems to me the problem is not JUST your CM. You are blaming him for the death of your Pack when, in truth, the fault lies with the parents and the entire leadership, especially the Committee Chair (CC). Your CM has been telling you, over and over again, he is overworked and doing to much. "We had a near disaster recently over not turning in some forms to council for a major activity. Knowing that he hasn't been taking care of things I made a call to council the day before the drop dead deadline and was told the forms were not in." Why didn't the Pack Activity Chair handle this? The CC has not recruited a Pack Activity Chair so the CM is doing that job? Why didn't one of the leaders/parents who were actually going to be at the activity handle the registration? "We haven't had a treasurer's report all year, though we've asked him for one. (He takes care of this)." Why is the CM doing the job of the Pack Treasurer? Why hasn't the CC recruited a parent to take on that job? "All we have been told is that we are out of money and need to do a fund raiser." Where is the Pack Money Earning Chair? Is the CM your Popcorn Kernal too? In many Packs the Treasurer is also in charge of fundraising, but not always. Often there is a SEPARATE parent volunteer who does this. "The pack meetings over the last 4 or 5 months have had no agenda or planning to them at all. He starts with announcements that last over 20 minutes, most of which have been stated again and again. Then does the awards and then we're done." Planning the Pack meeting agenda should happen at your monthly Pack Leader Committee meetings (which are run by your CC). This is not something the CM should be doing on his own. Pack newsletters (with a SEPARATE volunteer Chair recruited by the CC) should replace long, boring announcements. It sounds like your Pack Advancement Chair is, once again, your CM. "He controls the website but hasn't updated the calendar in 3 months." Once again - Not the job of the CM. The CC should recruit a separate parent volunteer to be Pack Webmaster. "Today he was to have the round up invitations sent out. It was the last day to send them before our events and it wasn't done." This is the job of the CC or the Pack Recruitment/Membership Chair - once again not the CM. "We had a project this afternoon and he didn't show up and didn't notify anyone." Was the CM in charge of this project too? Why didn't a den leader take charge of the project in the CM's absence? Why was the CM's presence necessary to the project? "He started out great, enthusiastic, fun. He seems like an entirely different person now." Of course he seems like a different person! He is burning out faster than fireworks on July 4th because he is doing the job of the entire committee! "Our COR is "on paper" only and they don't have any idea what's going on or what their role is." Get your Unit Commissioner (UC) and your District Executive (DE) to pay your COR and your Charter Org a visit and help them see what their part in all of this is. Hopefully they can get the COR to training. "Any suggestions? Our pack is about to die." If you take over as CC, I would suggest the FIRST thing to do is to get trained and get your other leaders trained. You have parents who are upset, disgusted, complaining, and threatening to leave. However, NONE of them are willing to work to help the Pack improve! They would prefer to belong to Baby Sitters of America? You, as CC, need to get these parents up, out of their armchairs, and recruit as many as possible to be new registered Committee Members and start spreading the work around. Good Luck

From another forum, I have heard that the new syllabus for Cub Scout Training was shown at the National Meeting this month and should be going out to the councils now.

One of the 10 Purposes of Cub Scouting - Family Understanding One of the 7 Methods of Cub Scouting - Family Involvement Cub Scouting IS Family and parent involvement is part of the program. My problem with the ScoutParent Initiative is that it requires units and councils to sign up even more volunteers, to create more volunteer committees, to do more fundraising, to find more corporate sponsors, to PURCHASE MARKETING MATERIALS. While marketing materials are helpful, I would rather create my own and utilize the free resources of my council, than pay $250 for them.

From your last post, it sounds to me like the problem is not really with the boys (although they are a very blatant symptom) - it is with the Pack itself. You don't have enough boys to have age appropriate den meetings. You have an uninvolved Committee Chair. You have an uninvolved Charter Org Rep (or over involved with the problem kids). You have an uninvolved Cubmaster. The people whose responsibility it is to take care of problems do not want that responsibility. The Pack is not being run according to BSA policies and practices. My suggestion is - don't wait - visit some Packs NOW. Pick one that has a good solid BSA program and transfer NOW. Nothing will change in your current Pack because your Pack's leadership (CM/CC/COR) are not willing to change.

You, as an Asst Cubmaster, do not have the authority to ban the boy or impose any limitations on him. This is not even the responsibility of the Cubmaster. Your Committee Chair and Charter Org Representative should, after a discussion with the boy and his parents, make, and enforce, the rule that the boy can not attend ANY Pack/Den activity without a parent there with him. To prevent the parents from ignoring this rule and dropping him off anyway, there should be someone outside waiting for them. If the parents just drop him off, than he should be taken aside and told to call his parents to come and get him - immediately. Every likely scenario with crazy parents or wild kids can not be covered in training. You would be there 48 hours straight - at least! Youth Protection training covers some things, and Infoscouter quoted the pertinent part of Guide to Safe Scouting which covers others. Finally, you have common sense to tie it all together. Talk to your CC and COR about the situation. Encourage them to bring in your UC (unit commissioner) for more help. BTW - I do not understand why you feel there would be repercussions against you for looking into other Packs? What kind of repercussions? From who?

That is why I stated "MOST" and not "ALL". Fast Start, YP (which should be renewed periodicaly), and NLE, can all be done at any time. Even Position Specific, and OLSWL, can be done at any time, although MOST do it when they move to the specific level. Although, I would have to say that the training would all have to be done either during, and/or before, the period of tenure for the specific award. If you did not take any training until your last year of Cubs I do not feel it would count toward being considered a trained Tiger Cub Leader.

For the CUB SCOUT Leader Awards, each section, Tenure / Training / Performance, must be signed off by your PACK Committee Chair or Cubmaster - NOT the Troop Committee Chair. You must have a separate year of tenure for each award. Most of the Training requirements for each award must be must be fulfilled DURING the year of registered tenure for EACH award. That means that EACH year you must have attended a Pow Wow or 4 Roundtables. In addition you must have taken Den Leader Position Specific training for each award level and, in order to receive the Webelos Den Leader Award, you must have also taken Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders (OWL, WLOT, or whatever combo of letters your council calls it) (NOT IOLS).

Your council does not have their Cub Summer Camps set up yet? It is rather late to start now. As Fred stated, in order to put together and run a Council Resident Camp or Family Overnighter Camp, you MUST be National Camp School trained. There are very specific National standards which must be met. It is NOT the same as putting together a Pack Overnighter.

My Pack also purchases the boys their new Handbooks. Because of the big price difference, we always give them the regular bound books. If the parents want them spiral bound they can take them to Kinko's themselves, or purchase a sprial bound book on their own. I have never had a problem with the Tiger's (or any other level) books loosing pages. The only book I have had that problem with is mine, which is now quite a few years old and the glue is starting to dry out! Personally, I like the idea of the book staying flat, but I would think that, boys being boys, the pages would get lost easier from a sprial bound book.

If your Pack paid your council an FOS donation from their Pack treasury, that was completely a Pack decision, not something that can be demanded by a council. FOS in a unit is directed at the families. Every family gets a pledge card. They can either give a monetary donation then and there, pledge whatever amount they feel comfortable giving, or check the box that states they are not donating anything. A Council can not FORCE families, units, or anyone else to give a donation.

Definitely get with the former Camp Director to get some direction. Do you have a budget from your Council? You will need to try to get as much of your supplies as possible donated to the Council. Do you have a qualified First Aider for each site? You will also need first aid supplies for each site. Will you need to rent tables, chairs, or shelters? Or will they be provided by the facilities? You will need at least 1 shelter for the archery folks (and hay bales and caution tape). You will also need a secure location for them to be able to lock up the equipment every night. Is there a secure location at each site to store the other camp supplies? Do you have any clue as to how many boys you have to plan for? Has your council been taking registrations, or are they only starting now that you have signed on? What provisions have been made, if any, for canceling some camps due to low registrations? I can see that there might be a problem with the end of June camps if registrations are just starting now. Many units have almost shut down their regular school year meetings by now. Has your council advertised for staff volunteers? You will need a LOT for all of those camps. Will there be a trading post at each camp? You will need a Scout Shop employee, or council employee, to staff them. What levels of Scouts will you have? If you have Tigers thru Webelos, you will need to structure your program to have different age appropriate activities for all levels. You need to have both active and passive activities planned. You will need to have a rotation schedule for each location showing what activities are happening at what time on what days. What are you doing for food? If you are serving anything more than snacks you will most likely need to have a Foodservice Certified person at each location. Make sure your activities at least slightly follow the theme. Make up cool theme related names for every activity. You will need to have theme based decorations for each location. If you are including a patch and a camp t-shirt, you should be designing them and looking for a BSA approved vendor NOW! You need to give your vendor enough lead time to be able to create a sample of each to be approved by your council - BEFORE - creating the hundreds you will need for camp. BTW - t-shirt vendors are VERY busy at this time of year doing shirts for graduating classes, park districts and other summer camps, so you really need to get moving on this ASAP. As 2cubdad stated you will need to line up police/fire/hospital coverage for each location. You will also need to find out what the local ordinances are for each location. Don't forget about garbage pick-up. Good Luck. This is an enormous undertaking for just 2 people to pull together in only FIVE weeks. I sure hope your council staff are lending a BIG hand! (This message has been edited by ScoutNut)