ScoutNut

So, it sounds like your real problem here is not the scouts or their parents, it is a lazy, ineffectual, den leader. I agree with Lisa. Do not let this den leader slide, and hand out awards like jelly beans. There is no need. The den has until the end of 5th grade (or until the boys are 11.5 years old) to do it right. Offer all the help they will need, but insist they actually EARN the awards they are given. If, in the end, you decide to simply give the awards away, why wait until Blue & Gold? There is no need to wait if it is simply a participation patch, and they are not actually doing anything. Also, why worry about Bobcat? What difference does it make? Give them their patches at the next Pack meeting, wish them well, and say good by. I would not make a big ceremony of it either. Participation awards don't get fancy ceremonies. They get a patch and a handshake. However, if you decide to pretend to the rest of the Pack that these boys actually did the work when they did not, then be prepared to loose some families. I would not stay in a Pack whose leaders showed that little character. That is not the role model I want, or BSA has promised, for my scouts. Which brings up your CC. Why, when the den leader told him - ""scout 1" had been around in the program for a long while and very active, so he must have completed the requirements, so the DL was going to put the scout in for the Webelos Badge along with the other scouts in the den." did the CC go along with this? Why didn't the breaks get put on this runaway train at that point?

Actually, different councils can have different requirements for filing a Local Tour Permit. Some councils require one everytime you leave your meeting place. Oters only require it when you leave your district/council area. You also have a lot in between. Your best bet to get it right for YOUR council is to give them a call and ask. For the Cub levels of Tiger thru Bear, there is really nothing that can be done. Once the parent signs off on a requirement, it can not be challenged. Webelos are different because it is no longer the parent who approves completion. The den leader, or a DL approved activity pin counselor, are the only ones who can sign off on completed requirements. bkale's approach is your best one. Remind the parents of the purpose of Cub Scout advancement, and their role in it. Remind the den leaders (especially the Webelos leaders) of the same thing.

Not seeing the incident, it is a bit hard to judge the severity. When you state "wrestling" I picture a woman rolling around on the ground, grappling with a young man. Was this the case? Were they arm wrestling? Did she have her arm around his shoulders, giving him a "noogie"? How about thumb wrestling? When the leader pulled the parent off the Scout, how was it done? Did she grab her by the hair? By one arm? Both arms? Around the waist? Around the neck? By her shirt? Did she hit also? As you can see, there are a lot of different variations of the incident that are possible. For the one to have called the police, it sounds like there was more than just simple "pulling off" going on. Seems to me both ladies were in the wrong. However, some of the above variations are more wrong than others. (This message has been edited by scoutnut)

Amethyst, perhaps at the next Pack Leaders/Committee Meeting you could suggest a uniform inspection for the next Pack meeting. The inspection sheets can be found on the internet, or at your council shop. Use your COR and your UC to do the inspections. The Scouts with the top 3 scores each get a certificate and a small prize (McDonald coupons, a nifty necker slide, etc). It might wake some parents up.

Do the Immediate Recognition beads, and small stuff, at the den meetings. Do the big awards like rank and AOL at your B&G. Intersperse short skits, songs, audience participation, run-ons, etc, between award presentations. This will keep everyone involved. Make the award ceremonies short, but special. Start ON TIME.

Your District is not dead. A District is an area of land. No more, no less. It can not "die". A District can run well enough without a full time DE for a spell. There are others at your council who can, and will, fill in. Also, since the DE position is primarily a sales position, it is not required that they have any past association with Scouting in any of it's forms. Your District might be having problems getting volunteers, and might not be functioning very well, but that really should have no impact on the units that are within it's boundaries. A BSA unit is owned by its CO and operates it's own program. If it relies on it's District for ALL of it's programing then there are problems in that unit that need fixing ASAP. You are not locked into attending ONLY the activities of YOUR District or even your Council. If another District/Council has a training, an activity, or even a Roundtable, that you want to attend as an individual, or a unit, then by all means - go right ahead. It is very obvious that you want on your District Committee. The question I have for you is why? Your Troops CO has stated they want you to be an ACTIVE SM, not a SM is absentia. Yet, you insist that while you realize you might not be able to give the SM position your all ("I have the resources for my troop to run as smoothly with me gone as with me present") you will NOT give up the position, or at least not the title. It seems that there are, after all, other people who are willing and able to do the job, even if you do not know any of them personally. Why do you feel you are a better candidate when both your SE, and your Troop's CO, have stated they do NOT want you to divide your time between your SM position and a District Committee position?

You stated - "WE have Webelos 2 scouts that are 9 years old... They were started a year early at determination of there Den Leader." Were they advanced a year in school? Or did the den leader simply accept them into the den a year early? What age/grade/Cub Level did they start in the Pack at?

asm 411 - The other sources I have found for segments are - http://www.benchmarkawards.com/ http://idealemblem.com/seg_catalog1.html http://www.thepatchplace.com/?page=stock&action=cat&id=20&sess_id=$sess_id Hope this helps!

A slightly better version - One bright day in the middle of the night, Two dead boys got up to fight. Back to back they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other. A deaf policeman heard the noise and ran to save the two dead boys. And if you don't believe it's true, go ask the blind man, he saw it too.

So, Your CC is the one who has appointed this man as the Troop Eagle Adviser? Your CC, COR & CO all know that this man is not following BSA policies, is driving boys away, and this is OK with them? If your Troop refuses to help it's Scouts by appointing a new Eagle Adviser who actually follows BSA policies, then I think it is time to go shopping for another Troop. Your son can complete his Eagle in another Troop. Even if he manages to stick it out in this Troop thru his Eagle project, I would still look to transfer Troops. This Charter Organization and Troop Committee do not support it's Scouts. Scouting (even the Eagle process) should be FUN. Not an ulcer inducing torture.

"ScoutNut, where do you get the segments?" We purchase ours from our Council Scout Shop, but not every Council carries them. I have found a few patch companies that have stock segments, but I think that Welsh Industries is the cheapest - http://www.welshind.com/stockhm.htm

"There are three things to memorize, IMHO. Scout promise, Scout Law and Scout motto." I beg to differ. From the requirements for Bobcat (which we are not allowed to change per BSA) - LEARN and SAY the Cub Scout Promise. SAY the Law of the Pack. TELL what it means. SAY the Cub Scout Motto. The only requirement that could even remotely be construed as "memorize" would be to LEARN the Cub Scout Promise. However you can learn about something without memorizing it. As for the rest of the Bobcat requirements - TELL what WEBELOS means. SHOW the Cub Scout Sign. TELL what it means. SHOW the Cub Scout Handshake. TELL what it means. GIVE the Cub Scout Salute. TELL what it means. Lots of SHOW, SAY, GIVE, & TELL. Not one time does BSA state the boy must MEMORIZE!(This message has been edited by scoutnut)

The main question of course, is how much has your Pack budgeted for patches? Giving out participation patches for every little thing is great, if you can afford it. Those big, snazzy looking patches can run as much as $2 each. That can put a BIG dent in your Pack's finances. We use the small curved segments for participation patches. And even at under $1 each, we can spend around $400 on segments each year. Check with your Committee Chair and Treasurer.

In Cub Scouts the bottom line is "Do Your Best". BSA specifically states that Cubs should NOT be tested. That they should NOT be placed in a position where they are set up to fail. Parents know when their son has done his best. If the parents sign off on a requirement (ANY requirement) then it is a done deal. As much as some do not like it, we MUST accept what parents tell us their son has completed.

Everyones registration is for 1 year only. At that time they are either rechartered with the unit, or not. She serves no purpose on the Committee and you can find another asst den leader. I would tell her that her service are no longer needed at the Pack level. BTW - This is how BSA actually recommends that new leaders are selected - http://old.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/13-500.pdf Basically it states that the IH or COR APPOINTS, and LEADS, a Leader Selection Team. This team can consist of CO members, Pack committee members, Pack leaders, parents, or anyone who the COR decides has the best interests of the Pack at heart. That team identifies people who they feel would do the best job in the position. The IH then approves the list of prospective leaders and gives the OK to contact them. Starting with their top candidate, the people on the list are visited, in person, and asked to accept the position. This goes on until one of them accepts. Notice, no VOTING at all.

The purposes of Cub Scouting are - Character Development - Spiritual Growth - Good Citizenship - Sportsmanship and Fitness - Family Understanding - Respectful Relationships - Personal Achievement - Friendly Service - Fun and Adventure - Preparation for Boy Scouts. Notice it does NOT say Advancement. Advancement is only ONE of MANY different ways for the boys to achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting. Instant Recognition does NOT mean that BSA makes Advancement a priority over other methods and activities. Instant recognition of achievements (ALL achievements, not just rank requirements) is one of the ways for the boys to experience the Cub Scouting purpose of Personal Achievement. If I have a parent who comes to me asking why their son did not receive the same award that other boys did, I have no problem at all telling them that the other boys had completed the requirements and earned the award, while their son had not completed all of the requirements, and so was not yet eligible for the award. I also have no problem referring them back to the many newsletters to them stating which requirements their son was short. They can pass the buck all they want, it will get passed right back where it belongs - to them. I may feel badly for the boy, but I am NOT about to give him an unearned award simply to make him, and his parents, feel better. I am also NOT going to take over the parents role, and do their job for them simply because they do not want to do it. That's not how the program works. I have never had a boy quit because they did not earn their rank award. I have had parents work harder, and pay more attention, the following year however.

I have not seen the new requirements. Perhaps the confusion is because they can pick EITHER a pin - or - a patch.

Per BSA - "Advancement is one of the methods used to achieve Scouting's aimscharacter development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. Everything a Cub Scout does to advance is designed to achieve these aims and aid in his personal growth. THESE BADGES ARE A MEANS TO AN END-NOT AN END IN THEMSELVES." (my caps) "The advancement plan is designed for parents to use to create a learning environment in their home. With the Cub Scout handbooks as a resource, parents and boys work together to do the achievements required for each badge. The advancement plan provides fun for the boys, gives them a sense of personal achievement as they earn badges, and strengthens family understanding as adult family members work with boys on advancement projects." One of the purposes of Cub Scouting is Family Understanding. Family Involvement is also a method of Cub Scouting. Advancement however, is a method of Cub Scouting, NOT a purpose. Boys grow, learn, and achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting, through a lot of different activities. Advancement is only one. There are some rank requirements and electives that fit well into a den setting. There is nothing wrong with doing these together as a den. However, the main area to complete advancements should be with the family, in the home.

Oh Leo Lion, Oh Leo Lion Why are you lying there and cryin'? Oh Leo Lion, Oh Leo Lion Why are you lying there and cryin'? In the brush you missed the guy Who had the gun up to his eye. Oh Leo Lion, Oh Leo Lion Why are you lying there and cryin'?

NCAC has some camp info on it's site, including costs. It appears however, that they do not have any program guides or reservation forms out yet for 2009. This is not unusual. Many councils do not publish them until after the first of the year. As for Junior Leader training - your council has information on it's NYLT training on it's site here - http://www.boyscouts-ncac.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=18907&orgkey=1934 For more information on training or summer camps, I would contact the council Service Center.

I agree. I should have stated - If you are NOT a registered Merit Badge Counselor, than you can not SIGN OFF on ANY merit badges, ANYWHERE, for ANYONE.

The only rule is that you are not qualified to be a Merit Badge Counselor simply because you are a SM. Have you sent in a Merit Badge Counselor Application to your council, along with an Adult Volunteer Application with the position code listed as 42 - Merit Badge Counselor? If you are a registered Merit Badge Counselor, then you can counsel any youth, even those in your Troop, on any of the merit badges you are registered for. If you are NOT a registered Merit Badge Counselor, than you can not teach ANY merit badges, ANYWHERE, to ANYONE.

Since the boys could have visited the police department last year as Tigers, and there is a requirement next year in Bears for a police visit, I would not recommend going this year. as exciting as a visit to the police department is, 3 years in a row gets BORING. Shooting BB's is not allowed as a den or Pack activity. It is only allowed as part of a council activity.

The fact that he gets along well with his peers is a good thing. I would talk to the other den leaders about how they perceive this boy. Then, as a group, or just you if you are the only one concerned, talk to the parents. There could very well be more going on with this boy than the parents have felt it necessary to tell you. Personally, I think there are a lot of indicators of ADHD and ODD. With 4 leaders you must have a very large den. That can be a challenge to deal with, and his interruptions do not help. Unless his parents buy into it, the most you can do is to not give him the attention he wants when he disrupts the meeting. Sit him down with a short comment about his behavior and then go on with the meeting.

A couple of questions you have not answered yet - How is his relationship with the other Scouts in the den? Is he liked by them? Have any of the other parents in the den expressed any concerns? Do his actions disrupt the den meetings? Is it a temporary disruption? Is it a disruption to the point where the meeting can not continue? Other than his off the wall comments, does he fully participate in the den meetings? Does he seem to enjoy the den, and Pack, meetings? Not knowing the answers to the above questions, it really makes it hard to offer suggestions. From your comments you seem to be waiting for this boy to explode into violence at any second. Your comments also seem to suggest that you would like to see him removed from your den, and the Pack, as soon as possible. As I said, not having first hand knowledge of the boy and his actions makes it harder to give an opinion, however, I have known boys who act in similar ways to your Scout (including the fascination with knives). Most of them have ADHD and other problems which typically are associated with ADHD. They have little impulse control, and say the first thing that flips into their mind. This is often made worse by the fact that they are usually rather shy, have a reduced self-image, and feel that if they act out they will at least get the other boys attention. These boys are usually very intelligent, creative, and because of both their intelligence and their ADHD, they get bored easily. They are all great boys, have not tortured or killed anyone or any thing, but they also represent enormous challenges for the adults who have to deal with them. You state that you don't want to speak to his parents because the mother is there and does not seem to do anything. Why does that preclude you from having a FRIENDLY discussion with her? Ask her about her sons behavior and what she feels the best way would be to help him to modify it. Get her to help you with her son, instead of going over her to get her son tossed out. Having him tossed out might make YOU feel better, but it would do nothing for this boy at all except to reinforce his impression that he is somehow not "good enough". (This message has been edited by scoutnut)