ScoutNut

Cub Scouts is an age appropriate program. The program for each Cub level is specifically designed for boys of that age/grade. A boy can not earn awards designed for younger, or older, boys. All Scouts, no matter when they join Cub Scout, earn Bobcat first. It is an introduction to Cub Scouting. After that they earn the recognitions for their age/grade level. A boy joining Cub Scouts as a Webelos, in 4th or 5th grade, would earn the Webelos Badge and Arrow of Light. This is explained in the Cub Scout Leader Book. Every registered Cub Leader should have a copy. Have you taken any training yet? Most Councils are holding Spring Leader Trainings now. Check with your council. There are also trainings online at the BSA National web site - http://olc.scouting.org/

Each of our Pack meetings are hosted by a den. One of their responsibilities is to provide the snacks for the end of the Pack meeting. A few years back we discussed the issue of snacks, and their lack of quality, at our Committee meeting. We decided to keep the snacks, but to go for healthier ones. Now we usually have fruit juice, fruit, veggies, crackers & cheese, pretzels, etc. Only sometimes are cookies and brownies provided. Depending on the theme of the night we might also have popcorn, nachos, or some other type of food.

"Mike forgot to mention the maroon VENTURE activity shirt for scouts in Venture Crews now called Venture Patrols." HUH?? Venturing Crews are now no longer stand alone units, but a Patrol in a Boy Scout Troop?? Since when? What are all of those female Venturers doing? As far as I know, Venturing Crews and Venture Patrols are completely separate entities, in cmpletely separate programs, and always have been. The maroon color block shirts were alternate Venturing Crew uniform shirts. They were never a uniform alternative of any kind for Boy Scouts in any Troop Patrol, Venture or otherwise.

"I am becoming a new scouter, and will be buying a uniform... need a hopefully definitive answer... " Simple answer - If you are working with Cub Scouts, or Venturers, and your Council Scout Shop carries them, get the red numerals for your Unit number. If you are working with Boy Scouts get the green unmerals. You can not purchase the trained patch at the Scout Shop. You will receive your trained patch from your council trainers after the training is complete. You wear what they give you.

If your city has a city owned property that is (now) used exclusively by, and for, the Scouts, why can't the VFW simply use their money to renovate the Scout Cabin? This would be done thru the city, who owns the property, and not your Pack, Charter Org, or the Council. With a city owned Scout Cabin available for all Scout meetings, I don't see why the VFW was not considered as a viable Charter Partner. The boys would be in the Scout Cabin, not the VFW bar. You might consider talking to the church about changing your charter to the VFW. If none of your members are members of the church, a move to the VFW might be a better fit.

Talk to your DE and the Day Camp Camp Director about what is involved, and also about attending National Camp School. There is a specific number, sequence, and type of activities that you must include (for example active and passive activities). Can you talk to the Program Director from last year?

"No required number of days to practice" No there isn't a required number of days to practice. How often, if at all, they practice is entirely up to them. However I will bet that if they do each activity only twice (1=day 2=day 31) they will show no improvement at all. And, if that is the case, they are certainly not Doing Their Best.

Webelos are still Cub Scouts, and Do Your Best is how they are judged. The requirement states show improvement after 30 days. That is exactaly what it means. Day 1 Webelos can not do any part of a pull up. Day 31 Webelos can pull himself up 1/2 inch. He showed improvement. Did 1 more curl on day 31 than on day 1 - he shows improvement. There is no requirement for any percentage, or type of improvement. Simply that he show improvement. If the boys are doing the excercises regularly (every day/other day) they should end up showing some kind of improvement, even if it is very slight.

The Cub Scout caps do NOT have rank badges on them. Rank Award badges are just that - badges. They are worn on the uniform shirt, not the hat. What is on the Cub caps is an IMAGE representing their Cub LEVEL. It in no way diminishes the actual badge worn on their uniform shirt because it is simply a picture, not an earned award. I have never heard of anyone confusing the picture on the hat with the earned award. While BSA could have gone with the generic Cub Scout emblem, I have no problem with the Cub level emblems on the caps. As for the need to purchase a new hat, slide, and necker each year - there is no need. I leave the decision of weather or not to purchase the Cub Caps up to the individual families. Personally, I do not recommend it. The boys seldom wear them, and lose them easily. However some boys just like caps. I know some boys who have started a cap collection with different BSA caps. Neckers are great for spotting which boys are in which level. You can easily see them from a distance. The boys also like having something that shows everyone what level they are in. Some save, and display them, with their caps. Our Pack purchases the neckers for the boys each year, so the cost is not incurred by the families. We have a cool graduation ceremony each May where the boys get their new neckers and handbooks. However, if your Pack leaves the purchase of a necker up to the family, and you don't want, or can't afford, it, then simply do not buy any neckers. A neckerless boy will not be kicked out of Cub Scouts! If you don't use the necker, then you don't need to purchase a necker slide. I don't recommend new Scouts in our Pack purchase a slide at all. We give them handmade slides when they join, and at graduation every year. Slides are also made in den and Pack meetings. Hand made slides are FUN, and boys love to make and collect them. If you were able to wear only one belt and one shirt during your entire tenure as a Cub Scout then you were the rather small, thin, exception. Or, your parents bought 3 sizes to big! My son grew out of his belt by 3rd grade, and he barely made it to February of 4th grade in his blue shirt without popping the buttons or ripping a seam. He was VERY ready to put on his brand new Boy Scout shirt. It signified to him that he was one of the "big guys" in the Pack, and on his way to Boy Scouts. You stated - " Lost in this decision was what the kids/parents would like and what everyone could afford." Actually BSA did ask what the kids/parents would like. There have been numerous surveys done on ScoutStuff and the National website over the years. After Cub Scouts is over, many families take the old Cub uniform parts, and make memory boxes. After you get your son his Eagle, you can put out all of his Cub Scout things at his Eagle Court of Honor. It makes quite a nice display.

All they need to do is pick up a current Youth Application at the Council Scout Shop. "Your son can be a Scout if he has completed the fifth grade and is at least 10 years old or is age 11 or has earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but has not reached age 18." I believe there was a short time frame when the age with AOL was 10.5. It was then changed to 10 and has been that way for a good number of years now.

>>> They even had the nerve to state " My Son seems to feel that he "deserves" the Eagle rank, not that he has "earned" the rank of Eagle"

If the boys already all know each other than there is not a whole lot to do in way of introduction. You might welcome them to the den with a special/fun necker slide, and ask them to tell a bit about themselves (like favorite activity). You could then go around and have your current Scouts do the same thing. While they all go to the same school, they might not really know each other all that well. After that I would have the "old" Scouts help the new Scouts with the Bobcat requirements. While the odds are slim that the newbies will be able to complete the Wolf rank in the time left, they should certainly be able to earn their Bobcat.

"WITH THE INCLUSION AND AGREEMENT OF THE SM IN QUESTION" I capped a few words as emphsis because I can not get the html formating to work. You? If the highly trained, and experienced CC, who is "in with the Council", doesn't know what to do about a SM who is not running a good program, and does not know what the District's Commissioner force is for, then the Troop has more problems than it seems.

Schatt - you stated - "I will start encouraging more training with our adults (most are trained to standard already but there's always more to be had), get ASMs that are doing Committee jobs (for example I'm an ASM working as Program Coordinator) re-registered into Committee, and simply keep doing what I can to get the SM to let go of things he's messign up, and hold on to things he's doing right." You seem to have not gotten the idea here. Doing all of these things is not YOUR job! ALL of the things that you mentioned above are the COMMITTEE CHAIR'S job, with assistance from the COR. I really do not understand why you are so intent on doing the job of the CC and COR. Put the problems back in their lap (where the belong) and concentrate on the boys.

"We need an Adult led advancement-oriented troop. You guys write derisively about such outfits, but thats exactly what we need How do I find them?" There are reasons we "write derisively" about them. If that is truly what you want for your son, then you can find them by looking in your local yellow pages, under Youth Organizations, for anything EXCEPT the Boy Scouts of America. What you want is definitely NOT Scouting! Good luck.

"the CC was one of the first people to come to me with problems" Why would the CC come to you, an ASM, with problems concerning the SM? Why are you, an ASM, looking for ways to fire a SM, and looking for replacement SM's? "He's got more training and scouting experience than the SM." Depending on how much training the SM has, that might not really give him any bragging rights. If he is a completely trained CC, then he knows that HE, not one of the Troop's ASM's, is responsible for firing the SM if need be. "If th eSM quits of his own accord tomorrow, then the CC would likely be the new SM." Really, how is that possible? Who do you then have lined up to be CC? A CC can NOT be registered as both a CC and a SM. "The current CoR has no prior history with the troop and replaced the last CoR when he died after over 35 years of service." Prior history with the Troop does not mean a hill of beans. The Charter Organization OWNS the Troop. The COR is the CHARTER ORGANIZATION'S representative, NOT the Troop's. He should be a member of the CO, and is the liaison between the CO (the OWNER of the unit) and the unit. If the CC had/saw problems with the SM, he should have gone to the COR, or the COR and the Unit Commissioner, NOT an ASM. Part of a Charter Organization's responsibility to it's unit is to secure proper leadership. That is done thru the COR. The CO appoints its COR, who then appoints the CC. Together the CC and COR recruit the Committee, who then recruit the units leaders with the approval of the COR and CC. Just as they give their approval for someone to become a unit leader, the CC and COR can take it away as well. Everyone is registered for a span of only one year. At the end of that year (or sooner if it is REALLY necessary) the CC and COR either approve them for another year of service to the unit, or they tell them their services are no longer needed. Period. From your posts, it seems to me that your Troop's leadership, ALL of your Troop's leadership, needs training ASAP. When your leadership is trained, and the CC and COR have put a proper Committee in place so that the SM does not feel he has to "do everything", perhaps your problems will have solved themselves.

Since you are talking about B&G, are these current 4th grade Webelos, with their crossing to Boy Scouts happening in Dec 2009, or Jan 2010? There is a long time to go yet. Have the boys earned their Webelos rank award yet? What happens if all of the boys have not earned their AOL by the time HE is ready to cross over? What happens if some of the boys decide to go to a different Troop? You might consider talking to the SM of the Troop he is going to do his crossing over to. If, despite everything, he does it his way, there is not a whole lot to be done. Make sure the boys get their awards AS SOON AS POSSIBLE after they have earned them. Do not hold on to them until B&G. Have a nice AOL ceremony at the Pack meeting right after they finish up their AOL (right before they do their Troop crossover). Mention as a part of the ceremony for AOL that this is the last time the Pack will be seeing the Scouts because they will be crossing over to Boy Scouts on XYZ date with Troop 123. There is no need to have them come back for B&G if the Pack has already ceremoniously presented them with all of their awards, and celebrated their departure to Boy Scouts.

OK - Just to note, it's Easter Sunday & I am a Catholic, sitting here and reading this nonsense. "There is a scouter who is also a priest." THIS is who is causing all of this trouble?? Someone who has no child in the program?? Tell EVERYONE there is one hour (or whatever the time slot is) for religious contemplation) they can either do their own thing, or attend the camp interfaith service. PERIOD. If they do not like that they can stay home. As a Catholic, I have sat thru a number of inter-faith services at Summer Camp (I am on staff for a number of weekends each year). While none have been amazingly inspirational, they have covered the basics, and some have even been pretty good. They did also, as far as I know, not offend anyone. Personally, as a Catholic, and a religious person of any kind, I am rather offended by this persons attitude. Either they work WITH the camp - or they stay home. Enough is enough. And then there is Beveah - "Yah, maybe it's just me, eh? But I don't see what's wrong with a couple of Catholic adults taking a mess of Catholic kids off-site to go to church (with parental permission, of course)." Perhaps you would understand if you read this post from Gold Fox - "When we were in the same unit and took a bunch of scouts overseas, they MADE all the scouts attend a Catholic service with them on Sunday. I tried to take those non-Catholic's to another church or skip it and they had a hissy fit. " This person seems to be on a religious power trip. Just say NO! Not a lot they can do except not attend, and somehow I think the event will be better off.

If your trouble makers are not trouble makers at all, and are responding nicely to positive reinforcement, what are the "real serious issues" that no one wants to deal with, and are causing families to leave? Perhaps if those serious issues were corrected the current SM would be re-energised, and decide to stay.

"I now wonder if I should have said something at the time" YES ! "if I should say anything now?" YES ! "Thinking about the thread on the Scouter.com forum that this thread is spun from, I did not want to be judgmental or step out of my proper place to point out the clear rules infraction, so I said nothing." So, you are using some posts on a message board as an excuse for not following one of BSA's very EXPLICIT rules??? Really?? You have choices - Grow up and talk to your CO, and your UC, about what happened, and make darn sure it does not happen again; ignore the problem and move to another Troop; ignore it, smile and nod, maybe even partake a bit the next time it happens, but what the heck, at least you would not have offended your "friends". Good Grief!

I am not sure I understand their objections. There is already an interfaith service scheduled for a district event. One of the participants of the event does not want to attend the group interfaith service. He/she wishes instead to have their own service, and invite everyone. Here is where I get confused - This person does not want to hold their alternate service at the same time as the event service? They want an entirely separate slot on the schedule, so, presumably, people can go to both if they wish? Why? There is nothing in any BSA publication that states that your district is required to have a different time slot for each and every possible faith service at an event. That is just silly. You could end up with the entire day being spent going from one service to another. I think it is an entirely fair compromise to allow multiple faith services in the same time slot, and have people choose the ONE service they wish to attend (if any).

RememberSchiff - As the BSA PowerPoint points out, bullying is a behavior that is REPEATED. There is NOTHING in the original posters comments that even HINT that this was anything other than a one time, stupid action by a young boy. The action was NOT ignored by the people around them, or powers that be. The boy WAS punished. Den leaders (ALL den leaders) should absolutely make it clear that unacceptable behavior in the den will NOT be tolerated. Den discipline is a big issue for ALL dens. That is why BSA recommends the Scouts in a den, along with their den leader, create a list of Den Rules, and post them where all can see at every den meeting. BSA also recommends the use of POSITIVE reinforcement (see the PowerPoint presentation you linked), instead of punishment.

OK, the Pack hands out punishment for an incident that happened on a school bus based on a parent not feeling that the child was punished enough by the school, or his parents. Where do you draw the line? Once the Pack gets into the business of being the community police force what infractions are to small for them to get involved? Are any to small? What happens when scout #3 gets into a shouting match with scout #4 when playing in the park? Parent #4 demands the Pack punishes scout #3 because Parent #3 only made their son come in early. What about if scout #5, while teasing the girl next door, breaks one of her toys? Parent #5 makes scout #5 apologize. The girl's parents, knowing the boy is a Cub Scout, demands the Pack make scout #5 buy the girl a new toy. Scout #6 hits a ball thru a neighbors window. Parent #6 pays for window. Neighbor, knowing boy is a Cub Scout, demands the boy be punished by the CM. Scout #7 hits his brother, scout #8 while fighting in their bedroom. Parents #7/8, even though they have already disciplined their sons, want the Pack to punish the boys some more. Scouts #9 & #10 are belching at each other in their Grandma's front room. Grandma is offended because this is rude, unscoutlike behavior and wants the Pack to make an example of them. Silly? You bet! But, once you open the door, where does it end? The incident happened on school property. The school handed out punishment. The parents most likely handed out their own punishment. The ONLY way the Pack should get involved is a general talk to everyone about what it is they are promising to do when they say the Promise & Law. And this should include Den Leader Parent #2, who could very well take out his anger on scout #1. BOTH boys deserve to feel safe at their den meeting. If Parent #2 feels more should be done there are other avenues, OUTSIDE of Scouting, that are more appropriate for that to happen.

"Parents took it as a slap on the wrist and wanted more to be done. They asked the CM if he would do anything. What would you do?" I would remind Parents #2 that neither BSA, the Pack, or the CM are part of the police system. As CM it is not within your ability to "punish" kids, or to increase a punishment levied by another. BSA very specifically states in it's YP that punishment is the arena of the parents. This is especially true when the incident was outside of Scouting. However, I would let them know that the CM will be doing a talk at the awards ceremony reminding all of the boys, and families, about what being a Scout means, and what the Cub Scout Promise, Law, and Motto mean in the real world. I would then suggest that if they wish to pursue any other actions they speak to Parents #1, and/or the school.

Sounds like your Pack could benefit from a Pack Trainer.