Scoutndad

OGE - If not for fear of legal reprisals and judgements, why would you have presented your question? Regardless of your experience in whatever professional, vocational or practical forum, I do not believe your question had any merit or relevancy in this forum without qualifying your concerns further. This is going to be a long thread so, believe it or not, I am still interested in how you feel the CO's liability aspect would be affected by the acceptance of homosexuals and agnostics in to the BSA?

Great point NJ...sounds very cohesive. I still like the idea of the "hypothetical" news flash!

Well, what started out as a good question, quickly digressed into OGE's "liability" issue... OGE - When the Catholic church has many allegations and CONVICTIONS of molestation and child abuse, how can you even bring up that ANY organization is exonerated from the liability of sexual abuse. And more importantly, how does your question relate to this thread? Are you homophobic, an atheist or a combination? (this is dramatized to make the point and should not be answered) but to stereotype religion or sexual orientation as a lead in to your question, certainly sounds startling to me and need to question the biasness of the moderator...

I would also continue on with scouting... The purple knots, along with other badges and emblems are earned. Nothing would change in that regard. However, I do believe that allowing both groups access to the scouts should not fundamentally change the purpose behind the requirements. I think that you should be able to understand faith, without making faith a requirement. Doing this might open the doors (and eyes) to those scouts that have no understanding of a higher power and will challenge them to decide and enter discussions with scouts on why believing in God (or a deity) is a good thing to have. All else consistent, how would this be detrimental to our young men that are encountering cultural and socioeconomic changes on a daily basis?

Great reply BW and would have expected nothing less due to the constitution and its freedom speech protection. But you lost me when you say the BSA upholds the constitution...it doesn't come close and it shouldn't...the BSA is a private organization with its own direction and bylaws. BSA continues to rightfully defend these directives in court with a reasonable amount of success using the constitution to defend their position as the BSA provides which otherwise would be prime ACLU territory. I don't have to like it, but I believe BW has a point and that is, "don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya" if you can not accept the rules and regulations set forth in the BSA.

Are you contradicting yourself EL? How do you not share your religious beliefs with your son(s) when the first posting you had under this forum clearly indicated that you spoke with them about their religious beliefs and "wiggled" through the faith requirements? The boys I know are curious by nature and ask repeated questions. How did you keep YOUR views out of all that you have done? Part of the Webelos optional faith requirements under section 8 describes visiting a church, synagogue (sp?) etc...this may be the best time to do this and begin understanding that there are other beliefs out there they may be beneficial to you and your family...but without exploring your options, you will never know.

There are some definite hard line beliefs on BSA out there that scare me, but overall, by penalizing volunteers because of their beliefs is contrary to any Judea Christian teachings out there that advocate ministry. Which now leads me full circle to this faith question...not sure how many of you have read The Good Book? I don't profess to knowing too many scriptures by heart, but my faith is directed by my religion, and my actions founded upon the values instilled upon me by my parents and friends, predicated on the teachings within the Bible. I would agree that we don't have to "like" the beliefs of those contrary to ourselves, but if you subscribe to the BSA Faith Guidelines prior to your religious beliefs and foundations (whether it be the Bible, Torah or Koran) then according to those hardliners, you may need to go back to your religious leaders and ask for absolvement of judging those rather than lay ministry to help those see the light. Unc, I agree with your point and in those circumstances, it was not the parent, but the child that needed to be interviewed regarding their faith. Things worked out and I was fortunate.

EL - I could not have summed it up any better... My views to the family that have different beliefs will not change... My agnostic parent also recites the Pledge, bows their head at scout led prayers and never makes an issue of their belief. So now what do we do...you probably have seen the other thread I started as Faith in Scouting. Turn the proverbial blind eye...kick out all the self proclaimed atheists and atheistic agnostics? (The preceding question was rhetorical in nature and should not have a reply). This is a tough topic and I give credit to anyone who is a BSA leader or is an active parent of a scout regardless or race color creed sexual orientation or FAITH. Unfortunately, the BSA did take a stance (right or wrong) but my question still remains...how do we handle leaders and scouts once we know? I didnt know what I signed up for either...

I completely understand your point on authority and directives. We are leaders, not the BSA police. I also share your viewpoint on informing the leader (or parents of a scout) about the BSA guidleines and allow them the courtesy of reaching their own conclusion. I alos concur with you that theistic agnosticism still fulfills the faith portion, however atheistic agnosticism and atheists need to be reminded (not singled out) that the pack/troop they belong to (or are joining), have fundamentals based on faith. Still a tough call defining this until the scout needs to fulfill a requirement based on faith...as the other forum shows, people trust BSA and would be willing to sign any form that is placed in front of them. Some do not understand what they have signed (and do not have it explained) and are never reminded until issues like these pop up and leaders are left with trying to understand the complexity of enforcing BSA guidelines.

Excellent responses... I still need to question what do you do with the leader/parent that is an atheist agnostic or atheist? They do not meet the requirments (and yes your presumption is correct, this is all played out after the form is signed) now what.... To say that they can no longer be part of the scouts will certainly bring up discussion with the remaining families of the Pack/Troop and while it may not have a negative impact, this will certainly cause a distraction among the boys and families. I don't think everyone including myself as a leader and parent would promote the denial of scouting to a boy based on their lack of understanding or completion in a requirement that they can not fulfill. And before you (directed to the forum and not an individual) say it is black and white about BSA principles, how about the physcially, emotionally and mentally disabled boys that are in scouts and "do their best" with all of their requirements? We as a leader and a parent will always respect (good word PS) the faith of others but I am not sure we understand the magnitude of our actions, spoken and unspoken, about adhering to some of these with requirements without discretion.

This is great...thank you for speaking up EagerLeader... As I mentioned in another forum topic, I'm not sure each Pack reviews and advises the parents or scouts on what they are signing at the beginning. I do think that there was a great approach suggested and would like to implement into our Pack. However, EagerLeader has a not too surprising view point shared by more people as they enter scouting. These views are fought in court and are not easily answered in these forums. I am a practicing Catholic and while my forum as Agnostic Parent kept growing, I continued to do my homework on the religious principles that make up the BSA. Unfortunately, the atheistic agnostic or atheist has nowhere to turn within the BSA unless the subscribe to the belief in a higher power. Visiting a local synagogue, church or mosque is always a great first approach to religion, but the scout needs to be ready to understand why and it can (and should be) used as a learning experience. Not sure where EL is located, but in my area there are alternatives to camping, young adult activities (including the Christian based YMCA)that offer activities without being part of the scouts. But if nothing more, and I think EL has a good view point so far on this, is that the boy needs to develop and nurture their own beliefs and values by their parents guidance. Historically speaking, it may work just the opposite for EL's son and instead of having religious training early on and ultimately turning to atheism...maybe the son will be guided to a belief that he is comfortable with and will eventually grow spiritually. BSA will always have a spot when these young men are ready. As a follow up question, how does EL, as a leader, deal with the issue that the form was signed and now has admitted to questioning their own religious beliefs? Do we turn the leader away?

In reading the Cub Scout handbook (any den), it becomes apparent that faith is a large part of scouting. Many of you are saying, "that's an understatement"... However, for many of us who were not involved with scouts growing up, parents and boys became members of our local cub scout pack for reasons other than faith (cool camping and hikes and real "guy" stuff). As the boys progress up the ranks, the "faith" requirement becomes more and more prevalent. Oh sure, we acknowledge our faith everytime we recite the Pledge of Allegiance at our meetings, stand and salute as the National Anthem is played, and even bow our heads at the Pack or Den meetings with the invocation or meal prayer... but how many parents and scouts sign up for the scouts because it is a religious based group? As a den leader who has progressed in experience "under fire", I personally found myself evolving spiritually, as my scout first earned his "Light of Christ" metal (along with 2 other boys (out of 9)) and now accomplishing his "Parvuli Dei". I have led the other scouts to the watering hole, but I won't make them drink. I will offer direction and resources when asked, but their faith growth is best left to their parents or guardians. With that now comes the idea that when we signed the membership form both as scouts and as leaders, we signed as spiritual people. But what about those that are not? What about those members that we slowly realize fall under the title Agnostic or Athiestic but signed the form anyway? How do the leaders/ parents handle these tribulations without affecting the scouting experience? How far should the leader/parent go if they recognize an agnostic or atheistic parent leader or scout (through their own admission)? What about a leader that has to deal with a religious belief that they are completely unable to understand? Where does a leader or parent draw the line when these families or scouts are identified, without creating a "witch" hunt and a negative impact?

Maybe I will do a spin off this week for this issue... Vicki...we have a real tough time in our area with the local troops... Although it is a two way street, the local troops have not made themselves known or actively participate in events with (or invited to) our Cub Scout Pack. Since I am the Webelos I (soon to be II) leader, I will make sure and hunt down the troops and try and get my scouts involved so they can not only fulfill their requirements, but see how their attitude, aptitude and faith is part of everyday scouting. To answer your question more directly, the boy is involved with other activities and has mentioned that he does not want to continue with scouting after cub scouts....future discussons about "reverence" many be moot...time will tell..

Obviously we don't have to like it in order for it to make sense... Wonder what the council is going to do with the $19.4 - that's were you should direct your question. Get involved with the council...it was a close vote and who knows how your experience could have influenced the outcome...go get em ES

Being new to the Scouter forum, I understand how things get missed in long threads. FB needed to go back and start from the first thread to understand that this was not about respecting the families religious beliefs as much as it was not being able to interview the scout to see how his faith or absence thereof, affected his advancement as a cub scout. While FB is certainly right about respecting other families beliefs, my main concern was just to speak with the scout. TO ALL: THE INTERVIEW WENT WELL. MOM LET DAD PARTICIPATE IN THE INTERVIEW YESTERDAY AND WHILE I CAN NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND THEIR FAITH, IT WAS QUITE CLEAR THAT THERE WAS A SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY/BELIEF TO/OF A HIGHER POWER. I MAY HAVE HAD A SIMILARILY DIFFICULT TIME WITH ANY OTHER SCOUT FROM A FAITH I WAS NOT FAMILIAR WITH, BUT AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED, THIS SCOUT ANSWERED ALL QUESTIONS AND FULFILLED ALL OF HIS REQUIREMENTS FOR HIS WEBELOS BADGE. INCIDENTALLY, MOM DID NOT SIT DOWN WITH US DURING THE INTERVIEW AND I DON'T THINK SHE MADE THE HUSBAND AWARE OF THE CONVERSATION AND CONCERNS SHE HAD WITH ME. OH WELL, IT'S DONE AND I CAN'T EXPRESS HOW THANKFUL I WAS TO HAVE THIS FORUM OF EXPERIENCED AND HELPFUL SCOUTING LEADERS, PARENTS AND MEMBERS. THANK YOU.

Yep..it was sold to a developer but some of it was sold off to Camp Gerber adjacent to their property. Unfortunately, Gerber could not raise the funds to purchase in time... here is the local article - Banker to buy Boy Scout land near Whitehall Macatawa Bank founder finalizing $19.4 million deal for 4,700 acres By PATRICK REVERE Staff writer The founder and CEO of Macatawa Bank is finalizing a deal with the Chicago Boy Scouts council to purchase 4,700 acres of forest land near Whitehall, about 12 miles northeast of Muskegon. Benjamin A. Smith, who also operates Smith & Associates, a Holland investment group, said the deal would be final following Blue Lake Township's approval of zoning changes to allow for a variety of low-density residential uses. "This is kind of a special deal," Smith said Wednesday. "I don't consider myself to be a developer at all. It's not my forte. But this property was such an interesting piece ... that I felt it would be something that I would be proud to be associated with." The Chicago Area Council of the Boy Scouts of America approved Smith's offer for the Owasippe Scout Reservation during a Tuesday night meeting, according to David Schindler, an attorney for the Boy Scouts. Dennis Chookaszian, a member of the Chicago council, said the 14-12 vote to approve the $19.4 million sale will better serve Chicago youth than retaining property that is a five-hour drive from the metro area. "The council's objective is to create a quality scouting experience, not land ownership or land conservancy," Chookaszian said. The deal calls for at least 476 acres of the most ecologically sensitive areas to be left undisturbed, though Smith said his goal is to build on the least number of residential parcels needed to make the deal financially feasible. Smith said no specific development plans are in place, but that there will be no commercial or industrial development associated with the project. Under a rezoning plan recommended to the township by the Chicago Scouts, the smallest residential parcel available would be 2.5 acres, with other areas available for development on 5- and 10-acre parcels. The land borders the south bank of Big Blue Lake and encompasses Wolverine and Sauger lakes. Schindler said the Chicago Boy Scouts began considering the sale of the property, which the council has used since 1911, more than two years ago because of its decreasing revenues and the increasing costs of maintaining the property. He said the camp at its height had a capacity for 16,000 campers during a summer season, but during the last two decades has seen a steady decline in campers. Last year, only 2,700 campers used the reservation. Alex Rossman, a spokesman for The Nature Conservancy in Lansing, said the Owasippe camp is one of the largest intact tracts of open private land in the Lower Peninsula. He said The Nature Conservancy has been working with the township and the Boy Scouts to maintain the sensitive ecology of land, and would continue to do so with any new owner. "Our stance is that while the ownership of the land is changing, the importance of the conservancy of the land remains just as strong," Rossman said. "One of our approaches, that is really the benchmark of our program, is to understand that conservancy is market driven, and being able to work with the buyers rather than working against them is the most important thing. "We're really not a controversial or adversarial organization," he said. "We understand that land is a commodity ... and we try to achieve conservation while still meeting the needs of the owners."

packsaddle... u r scaring me man...

now i think ES is on to something with the finger thing...lol by the way, 12 years of combined training in 4 styles has also been a positive influence in my life - only one fight and I deserved every stitch that I got! but it all gets put into perspective when you are the parent and your child is in spiders position - a very difficult time indeed...

Then to reinforce the position I stated, work together as a family and if necessary, incorporate the proper tools which would include any books, videos or counseling necessary to establish the best behavior for the child. Bullys are created.. Warriors are trained.. Establishing the correct behavior pattern is essential to defining the difference through any medium that is effective.

Yikes...what a forum...martial arts...biblical references...Columbine This should have stopped after Bob Whites original reply. No amount of martial arts or parental involvement (or lack thereof) is going to resolve a situation that has manifested for so long. As a one time wimp, then a bully(over corrected), if nothing more, take the appropriate measures to resolve the immediate situation and take your child out of harms way first THEN work on, as a family (and may I suggest professional counseling) the resolution of the bully. As many contributors pointed out, there are many tough "no tolerance" laws that parents and children might be able to use in these situations, but a reference to physical retribution regardless of combat style should be used constructively as a self-esteem and self-discipline tool and not as an answer. Experience has taught - conflict is inevitable, fighting is a choice

I don't mind keeping my forum topic up, but I think NJ has a great idea... Spin a new thread under Issues and Politics since there is more I would like to hear about over and above my original topic that would have a better forum...we need to label it Faith in Scouting You bring up a great point about the application while Vicki has a great and unique perspective on agnosticism.

The horse aint gettin any deader by beatin it... As the full thread of comments and opinion shows, it is absolutely a lenient process where the interview is not an interrogation. Advancing my boys for the past 4 years has been "trial under fire" however as has been stated and restated, the DL is the guide (as Fscouter mentioned) but is also obligated to their post regardless of circumstances. Any deviation from those responsibilities is not only a liability to the leader, but to the scout, the den, the pack, the council, the bsa and Powell himself. My struggle was predicated on how lenient I should be if I was unable to understand if the scout fulfilled his requirement. The answer was clear...if the book requires a den leader to sign off, then the scout needs to explain the requirement to the leader regardless of the "quality" of the requirement. In Cub Scouts, "do your best" means just that. In this case, there was no way I was able to determine the validity of the requirement completion. The faith issue, as I see it, is not mine to teach but support throughout my group (you can bet your bippy I am going to get my purple knot now). The requirement in question was about faith, but not about the scout's faith. If the boy should have a divine intervention or a leap of faith, then I would be there to support and encourage, but never to lead. Faith takes many forms and shapes and my question boiled down to how to uphold the obligation I have as a trained DL. And for the record, there was no play on words throughout this forum. There are strict definitions of agnostic and atheism that the BSA upholds. Not mine to advocate or condone unless challenged to do so. My problem was the admission that a parent, and not the scout, was agnostic. My ultimate goal was to try and get the scout to an interview so I had a reason to advance him. After a discussion with mom and dad last night, my interview with the boy is this Sunday.

Point taken Greg and if you read through all of my replies, I think that you will come to the assumption that I am a spiritual person and struggled with the point you are making. Now take in to account that the mother is agnostic, the father was raised christian - the spiritual awareness of the scout is not up to a cub scout leader but to the parents/guardian. It was made apparent to me that the most harm that would have been caused, was the lack of action on my part to uphold the requirements of the badge. Something new...I offered my assistance to this family mid 2004 in efforts to stave off this very problem. I reminded them at the first of the year that we would need to look at this. Dad was accepting of it but mom is a firm believer in her view points and she has a right to be. I needed a little "hand holding" from the forum to reassert my original belief that regardless of their spiritual beliefs, I needed to "listen" to the scout and how HE fulfilled the requirements of the badge. My problem was "how" to get the scout to the interview... Thanks for the reply...

Thanks BW - Let's see if the parents agree with your observation...

Not sure of your point packsaddle... As a leader, we need to make informed decisions regarding the scouts we advance. Being judgemental is human nature and that is the reason that having the parents attend our participate in the interviews should be part of the advancement. The parents should not answer for the scout, but it allows the leader to become more aware of their duty to the scout, pack and council. Understanding the application has the necessary nomenclature for all to read, I hardly think that it is the best tool to use as a general approval on faith issues. I do agree that an interview needs to be done to listen to the scout - but a requirement can not be completed unless the scout answers the question, not the parent or guardian. Without the interview or question, the requirement is not completed. (at least that was my conclusion after many members of the forum chimed in)