Scoutndad

Nice posting Pack - Great example and solution. Same goes for you Ed - nice analogy. Could not have said it any better...

His question is: How do they deal with a Scout who disobeys one of these rules and when asked why? His answer is that the rule is stupid. Don't confuse threads... My posting did not tolerate the ignorance of laws nor did it try to effectuate the "explaining" away of laws...your last post was more characterisitc of what I have expected from you. And to get back to your view on local community laws (not related to BSA) will you please explain the recent repeal of the 330 year old law in Massachusetts that banned Native Americans from the Boston city limits? Is it good or bad?...but it was a law last year but not this year so NOW how do I explain it to the scout...times change, values change and laws need to change...you can't explain away some truly inept laws but you CAN try and help a scout understand the history behind it and help them understand the views that surrounded the original law. By appearances, you seem to be very knowledgeable person when it comes to the BSA...don't muddy the water by bringing over your responses (and passion) from another thread. And as for my view on community laws, I don't have to like em but I do have to live by em or prepare to suffer the consequences of breaking them. By that comparison, I do lead by example and do not knowingly break them.

Wow BW your brief and rude response was way off base and off topic to the posters original question (should be under the decision making thread whether we should guide the scouts to make good decisions or tell the scouts how to make good decisions) My contention was that in order to understand the original question, you have to understand the mindset of the person who deems it "stupid". Don't bring the "rules is rules" mentality when the poster poses a question about what is deemed "stupid". If it was that clear to begin with and the scout was brought up understanding why rules/laws are created, then this thread would have no relevency. Until then, let's try to understand why the scouts question what we would deem to be fair and equitable rules as "stupid" and then role play to help them understand that the rule is developed to protect their best interest or the necessity to have the rule to begin with.

IMHO...my response is always the same...since I can no longer think as a young adult (without obvious adult biasness), I ask the Scout why they think the rule is stupid. In understanding the reasoning behind their definition of "stupid" (the same rule can be interpreted to various degrees dependent on the age and upbringing of the scout and I am sometimes surprised at what I hear as the answer), we can then start down the road of understanding why the scout has taken his position and what can be done to help the scout better appreciate why a specific rule is necessary. Role play works great but needs to be age specific.

What a great idea with the state rep and senator...I will need to keep that in mind for my Webelos crossover and AOL recipients next year... Thanks Brian

I think the main point was lost after Ed's post...the critical definition IMHO is the word "prepare" and not decision...your anecdotal analogies are at best defining how you prepare a child to make a decision albeit positive, negative or dietary reinforcement. Children are inherently destined to pick up on the traits from their peers and role models...hopefully, those of us who are in scouting, prepare the boys that we are exposed to by allowing them to make informed decisions without drawing conclusions for them. Incidentally, I take onus to your credit to your reference of Hillary - her book was a capitalization on an African proverb and previously titled childrens book prior to her use - however, my thoughts are summed up by another "let the Hilary Clintons of the world use Africa as a paradigm for reform of our own society. Our job is not to "authenticate" or criticize such internal western discourse but rather to keep in mind the richness and complexity of life in socieites which should not be seen simply as an "anti-West." Another great reason for an international program like BSA...

What was the origin or the original intention of BnG?

Egads....somebody got a hold of our BnG program and started doing every little award, beltloop, pin, appreciation and advancement they could think of...we normally reserve the BnG as a big recognition of our Webelos II guys but Friday evening went for over 3 1/2 hours - can't go that long with siblings. I am definitely going to suggest a February BnG in '06. I think there is a time and place and finiding the balance will be a primary goal for our Pack. But on the plus side, we had 3 Eagle Scouts and one "almost" Eagle Scout, take care of our Webelos II crossover ceremony and it was fantastic. My Webelos I (now Webelos II) guys are more excited than ever to go on to Boy Scouts (not to mention, getting their AOL).

We reserve BnG for Webelos II and make a big deal with it...the rest of the group is acknowledged as they move up rank, but no other awards are handed out. Our Pack feeling is that this is the last big hurrah for our Webelos II as they move into Boy Scouts so we provide their decorations and have a big ceremony. This year we are trying something different and having our Webelos I denner present the Bears with their Webelos neckerchiefs and books with the help of the other Webelos and welcome them into our den (minor ceremony).

Very common for my den... I have 9 Webelos and they are very involved with summertime acitivities... I try to encourage other interests and hope they find their way back after summer is done. As a WDL, I don't exclusively schedule around my sons hectic sports schedule. I try and strike a common meeting schedule to make the most of everyones summer... I think it is great that they have the parents that allow them the ability to explore and enjoy other experiences. I challenge them to apply the newly learned Scout Law in the sports they play, and activities that involve their families. Lastly, I try and attend at least one game for each of the boys to watch them play and scream my bloody head off (cheering not admonishing).

Ducky...I commend you on finding out more info so that your question was answered. The reason I was unable to reply until now was the tone of my replies...I found myself "attacking" TPLady and was not going to send my messages. I was truly speechless after TPLady's last reply not only from the tone, but the misspellings and the idea that this parent worked around 3rd graders with outbursts and problem solving abilities... I think there was a valid concern around the original question and we found that while many agree on how the forms should be treated and the medical info needs to be treated with the utmost discretion, there are different SOP for different camps and Ducky's steps to confirm what is needed, answered their question. As an EMT, there are "should know about" situations and there are "have/need to know" situations...medical alert bracelets, necklaces, epipens, inhalers etc. are all "have/need to know" but the physician that takes responsibility for the camp and assigning the protocol should be aware of placing the proper people in place (see eary post by Adrianvs) with access to the necessary files - when someone goes down, you don't have time to run to a filing cabinet - all "have/need to know" campers should be discussed with all medical personnel at the camp after check in just so there is an awareness and preparedness should Little Ducky accidentally eat a peanut while enjoying his 5th slushy... Incidentally, I am located in Michigan...

sounds good to me as long as your five year old is ok with me using his material...i hate it when they show up on your doorstep ready to open a can of whooptush...

Why did the gum cross the road? It was stuck to the chicken's rump...

Here is the latest... Posted: 4-18-2005 Blue Lake Township: Needs county help to rezone Owasippe Blue Lake Township has officially appealed to Muskegon County officials for technical help as it deals with a request from the Chicago Area Council of the Boy Scouts (CAC) to rezone the 4,700-acre Camp Owasippe for development. Blue Lake Township Supervisor Don Studaven made the appeal to the Muskegon County Board of Commissioners last Tuesday afternoon. Displaying a color-coded map of Blue Lake Township, Studaven pointed out the camp that encompasses nearly a fifth of the townships total 23,000 acres. I want you to try to understand this from some of the peoples point of view and how so many of us feel in Blue Lake Township (about Owasippe), Studaven told commissioners. Right now we have some real problems and the planning commission has to make a judgment. Its judgment will determine if the oldest operating Boy Scout camp in the country is rezoned from camp only use to that which would allow residential development. CAC applied for the rezoning of Owasippe over a year ago. Just this past February CAC announced it had a buyer for Owasippe, Holland banker and developer Benjamin A. Smith III. Hes offered $19.4 million for the property if Blue Lake Township will rezone it. CACs rezoning proposal asks for quarter acre lots around the south side of Big Blue Lake and lots of 2.5 to 10 acres in other areas of the property. It calls for about 10 percent of the 4,700 acres to be left undeveloped as conservation districts. But all of that creates what Studaven called an an infrastructure nightmare for Blue Lake Township. Studaven and the townships planners are worried about how the possibility of 1,500 new homes around the south side of Big Blue Lake and their water and septic needs could impact the lake, the townships water supply, and already taxed roads, area schools, and fire department. The township has asked CAC for sewage, traffic and safety studies to help planners with their rezoning decision. Attorney Devin Schindler, representing CAC, said in an email response last week that CACs consultant, JJR Smith Group, has met with the Muskegon County Road Commission and Public Works for the information needed to complete the studies. Schindler said hes waiting on the report from JJR to find out whether tying into the countys sewer line, a private sewer line or septic would be the best way to balance CACs environmental values and economics. Schindler expects the reports to be completed soon and that a meeting will be scheduled with the township shortly thereafter. The township has hired its own consultants, Grand Rapids firm Langworthy, Strader & LeBlanc. Studaven said his request for technical assistance from the county will serve as a second opinion to the consultants reports. Im not going to say were not going to rezone it (Owasippe), Studaven told commissioners. People have the right to do what they want with their property, but we cant let them ruin the land. County Administrator Jim Borushko said Studavens request will be referred to the Public Works board, on which eight of the 11 county commissioners sit. Borushko told commissioners last Tuesday that the township isnt that far from the countys 30-inch sewer line. Borushko said now is the time for negotiation between the township, the developer and CAC before any court decides against the township and leaves it holding nothing. There should be financial considerations for insuring that public health issues are addressed up front and not after the fact, Borushko said following last Tuesdays board meeting. The Boy Scouts have paid very little taxes over the years. To walk away with $19 million and not leave a trust behind for that township is unacceptable. Borushko even suggested the township might want to ask the developer to maintain part of the land around Blue Lake as a community park. Schindler said an in email last week CAC is not considering litigation. It hopes the township is open to the compromise solution contained in the rezoning application. Schindler said hes still open to other ideas and constructive criticism. What Blue Lake Township is not open to is dense development on the south side of Big Blue Lake as it already is on the lakes north side. Their plan calls for R-1, or 11,000 square foot lots, there. Well never do that again, not as long as Im here, Studaven said

I agree with JD and Scoutnut...sounds like good advice. However, BW has the best and most straightforward approach so far...give this advice to the parents of little Johnny (not sure why they did not pursue this in the first place)and move on.

IMHO....Sounds as if the scout fulfilled his requirements in a couple of different ways and as long as those events were accomplished by the support of his Akela and/or religious leader (dad), you would only need to discuss with your family and Webelos leader to complete the requirement that you originally inquired about.

I keep forgetting how exact one needs to be in these forums... Under direction of the religious leader (presumably your scouts leader - ie you or your spouse) find a need and fill it...whether it be locally or globally. Sometimes rural settings don't lend the opportunities that suburban or city settings provide. And as mentioned, no it does not have to be for a non-profit/charitable group, but when you are looking for easy answers, these groups have an inordinate amount of resources to pool from for ideas. For a more individual experience, the suggested help of an elderly neighbor is a great lesson and the scout gets to see and experience the reward of a good deed more quickly. Whatever you choose (or your religious leader chooses) I am sure it will be a great opportunity for your scout.

Our Council has done a food drive for local food banks; our Pack has collected toys for the Toys for Tots campaign at Christmas time for the past 3 years and my Den has made cookies for the local community kitchen throughout the year. But as BW suggests, if you are not sure, ask your religious leader and I am sure that he/she/they will have some great ideas. Good luck!

I feel a bit responsible for the creation of hard feelings, strong opinions and some "animosity" over the past few weeks from my original posting re the Agnostic Parent. I am not going to justify my religious beliefs or my opinions re homo v heterosexuals within the BSA, but the help (and subsequent threads)that followed in and outside my original thread were truly eye opening. Bottomline, you were all there to help me when I needed it and I thank each and every one of you. Pls...no group hugs... Thanks Brian

Rix - the mom has no problem with signing or reciting anything relating to god or religious beliefs. If we fall back to the avowed part, then yes, she did admit to me, but as a DL, I am not going to judge the content of her religious beliefs nor am I going to question this. I have already indicated to our Charter Rep and will take the advice offered early on in this thread and ask the parents to speak with others more saavy in BSA policies to determine the leader and Boy Scout requirements down the road. I advanced the young man because this scout deserved and earned his advancement. I will encourage him through the next year if the family lasts that long, and hope that this boy will eventually continue through the Boy Scouts and eventually understand WHY the BSA uses faith as a requirement. Thanks

Pure conjecture - Do you think he may listen more closely to the members of the whole organization and lead us to do the right thing and not the politically correct thing?

I think that the BSA needs to address this from the training side. Why try to argue that it is there in front of everyone on the form when they sign up or in the various handbooks...because it is seems apparent to me in these related threads, people are not certain what values or policies are critical to understand when joining. It was suggested that we have the CM PL or whomever, give an introductory meeting and discuss this very topic. I think that is a great idea and should be mandatory at the time that scouts and parents are signing their forms. You will always have those that were "unaware" down the road, but there are too many experienced members posting replies in these threads that were not aware of the religious content when they joined. I enjoy reading these "religious value" threads, but it is obvious that while we may or may not "respect" each others view on religious beliefs and sexual orientation tolerances (regardless of factual content), we (the BSA and its leaders) need to do a better job of training and educating the parents and scouts at the beginning of their experience instead of trying to repair it after the fact (and yes I was trained and continuing my training but this is/was never brought up). It is what it is...

Ah...now you're talking my language. Great post Semper...that is what originally started my quandry with the Agnostic Parent. I am also Catholic and have been raised as such, but I think a non-sectarian approach in BSA would be a welcome change and still allow those with strong spiritual relationships, to flourish by achieving their various emblems of faith. I hear that earning the Catholic religious medals as a Boy Scout and Venturer are no "walks in the park" and they shouldn't be...but this is optional and as my Cub Scout finishes up his Parvuli Dei, I recognize that not every scout "practices" in the same way, but I look on in admiration at the scouts who DO go one step beyond scouting to earn these medals and display them proudly when they get the chance... But make no mistake, one persons worship on a mountaintop is anothers prayer inside a church. Thanks for the great thread...but needs a better title, I thought it was about gas mileage...lol

So according to Z there may be a glimmer of hope albeit not on earth and I may have to support cryogenics...I'm ok with that

EagleDad - even if the Scoutmaster did announce he was gay, why would that take away from any of the intrinsic safeguards practiced and taught in the BSA? As for role models, may be more of a subjective question and would depend on what role model the boy has to begin with. But how would their sexual orientation become an issue? I might ask the same question if it related to atheist and agnostics (which is my "hangup")? As much as this forum may have strong political view points, I believe the boys we lead need to understand rather than ostercize alternative view points from "traditional" thinking. As for the partner situation, if you are referring to the potential of any improprieties, why would that be tolerated any more than married couple situations? How are two dads, or two moms in the same tent going to be perceived any diffently than same sex partners. All still would need to abide by the training provided by BSA as suggested in Semper's original posting. However, Bob got me again with the Red Sun thing...it just is not going to happen im my lifetime and I need to accept some viewpoints will be vigorously challenged and accepted contrary to my own...